Expert HELP needed! Mystery problem - Corals dying.... Out of ideas?!

Aussiemarine · Oct 16, 2020

Okay so I will try and be as brief as possible but basically my tank is struggling and I have no idea why, I have tested everything possible with no red flags, I have removed everything that I think could have caused some sort of problems and stripped back to basics, done large water changes and I still seem to be struggling with my corals.

****I am OUT OF IDEAS - I am open to abosultley any suggestions I will try just about anything at this point as NOTHING seems to be working - I am completely lost for the first time in 6 years in this hobby, I have never experienced anything like this before...****

It all started about 6 weeks ago when I got dinos (ostreopsis) hitchhiking on a couple of corals - a 75w UV eliminated that a few weeks ago and since then I have stopped using my UV as I suspect it may have having some negative impacts as it was one designed for ponds and may have leached something as it had a stainless steel body even though I could notice and corrosion.

Since then I have started loosing corals left and right, first my sps I lost about 7-8 pieces and now some of my euphyllia are going down (retracted all the time) however some corals are going awesome like my Sarcophyton, some euphyillia's my elegance and my anenomes so its ab bit random and moving them around doesnt seem to help at all so i can almost eliminate lighting and flow. That leaves me with some sort of water chemistry problem.

I have been testing almost daily to check everything and its all been pretty consistent, there are my results as of today:

Salinity 1.024 (raising to 1.026 as it must have dropped in my last water change as i tested last week at 1.026)
Calcium 555 (Hana tests seem to always give a higher reading, I checked with redsea and it was 440)
Alk 150 (8.3 Dkh)
Phosphates 0 (were 0.1 yesterday)
Nitrates 2-3ppm
Temp 25.5 celcius
PH 8.3-8.5

About my tank:

5x3x2 - 1000litres approx, running two orphek atlantiks plus 2x kessil a360s - running approx 70% power - PAR readings around 120 on sandbed up to about 350-400 to the top of the bommie - Most LPS in the 180-200 range and SPS -250-300 range.

In the sump I am running a bubble magus auto filter roller, large duala skimmer, carbon reactor (running off return), grounding probe, poly filter, refugium with chaeto, algae turf scrubber (running off return) and return pump plus heaters.

Fish are:
Large foxface
Bluespotted rabbitfish
chromis
tomini tang
cleaner wrasse
whipfin wrasse
banana wrasse
melanurus wrasse
male laboutei wrasse
ember blenny
pyramid butterfly
coral beauty (only added 4 days ago haven't seen him touch anything yet)

+
Trochus snails
strombus snails
turbo snails
sand sifting starfish

All fish and inverts are actualy doing great no problems what so ever and coralline continues to grow like wildfire, every rock is covered and the back wall is going nuts.

I feed mainly mysis and nori plus some masstik and marine grazer every other day along with AF algae pellets on occassion (most fish dont like them for some reason)

What I have done so far:

Other than test regularly, I have done;
- a few large (200litre) water changes with no effect
- cleaned up the sandbed as it was starting to get diatoms/GHA)
- Added polyfilter to see if there was anything suspect in the water
- added a small amount of phosguard to lower phos from 0.1
- stopped dosing amino acids
- stopped adding garlic and beta glucan to food
- straining frozen foods
- removed the small pumps from the ATS and carbon reactor and plumbed to the return incase they were leaching something
- reduced flow around the LPS (even though this has never been an issue in the past)

Next step is to do a triton test to see what else is happening as there must be something in the water or leaching that I don't know about - other than that whats my next move PLEASE HELP!

Corals (the good bad and ugly)

Testing:

Tank / Sump area:

What the tank looked like about 2 months ago

Edp251 · Oct 16, 2020

Very sorry t hear. I had a similar mystery problem and the culprit turned out to be my source water. My TDS was way higher than I thought and I learned that I needed too measure TDS and change out my anionic DI resin every 90 days. Something to consider that I do not see on your list above. Best of luck!

Aquatican · Oct 16, 2020

If you haven't already done it, do yourself a favor and get an ICP test.

Aussiemarine · Oct 16, 2020

Edp251 said:
Very sorry t hear. I had a similar mystery problem and the culprit turned out to be my source water. My TDS was way higher than I thought and I learned that I needed too measure TDS and change out my anionic DI resin every 90 days. Something to consider that I do not see on your list above. Best of luck!

Yea sorry forgot to mention that - I checked TDS and it’s 0 I also checked after it was filled and going on the tank and it was 1 (probably residual from the air)

Aquatican said:
If you haven't already done it, do yourself a favor and get an ICP test.

Yep I’m thinking that’s my only option now. If no improvements happen over th next few days when my next order is ready to be sent next week I’ll throw one in...

Cabinetman · Oct 16, 2020

Like it has been said you should get an icp test. The only thing that stands out to me is 0 phosphate. If it’s truly 0 that’s not good as I’m sure you’re aware. How stable is your alk?

Aussiemarine · Oct 16, 2020

Cabinetman said:
Like it has been said you should get an icp test. The only thing that stands out to me is 0 phosphate. If it’s truly 0 that’s not good as I’m sure you’re aware. How stable is your alk?

Yeah I’m going to do that for sure.

it was 0.1 yesterday so not sure how much it fluctuates but I do have a fair bit of GHA which may be throwing my numbers off

Alk has been probably the most stable parameter, I test that every 3-4 days and its always within 145-150 ppm. I have done heaps of work to fine tune it. I dose 24 times a day 4mls per hour of my mix, to keep it super stable as I know how important it is. I consume a fair bit of alk I assume that’s why the crazy coraline growth.

sixty_reefer · Oct 16, 2020

How long have you run your po4 at 0? I’d be keen to say nutrients starvation

Aussiemarine · Oct 16, 2020

sixty_reefer said:
How long have you run your po4 at 0? I’d be keen to say nutrients starvation

As above it fluctuates - when my tank was looking good it was 0 and then when it’s been looking **** it’s been anywhere between 0 and 0.1. If I start going dirtier I just seem to get algae issues

DeniableArc · Oct 16, 2020

Hi 0-0.1 is a huge daily swing given you have a Roller filter, fuge, algae scrubber I would guess you need more nutrients. My corals have looked so much better with at least 0.1-0.15 po4 and 5-10 nitrates and I quit carbon dosing all together to get these numbers, just a good skimmer and slow flow uv.

Cabinetman · Oct 16, 2020

I’d be more inclined to think there was some sort of metal or something released into the water from the uv unit. Cuprisorb from seachem works good to absorb metals. It’s probably the best imo. I’ve used it after copper in my reef but it will also absorb other heavy metals. I think I read you’re running carbon too. Good move. The problem is that the damage could be already done to the corals and no matter what you do they might not make it. But at least with an icp test youll know where you stand. .

Timfish · Oct 16, 2020

If your system is deficient for phosphorus when you start adding it algae will respond faster than corals. (I would recommend getting Forest Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" and start with ch 5 to get an idea of what might happen in an ecosystem.) If this was my system I'd remove the ATS and try to keep the PO4 "around" 0.1 mg/l (that's not a magic number just around there). I'd would also do small weekly water changes of "around" 10% taking time to gently siphon off any rock that doesn't have coral on it. Be patient, when I fix algae problems it can take several months for the system to turn around. In addition to ROhwer's book here's some additional research papers on reef ecosystems, corals,nutrients and algae:

(Sorry for any data overload

)

An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals | Journal of the Marine Biological Association of the United Kingdom | Cambridge Core

An experimental mesocosm for long-term studies of reef corals - Volume 92 Issue 4

www.cambridge.org

An Experimental Mesocosm for Longterm Studies of Reef Corals

Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:

http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/files/file/Nutrient%20enrichment.pdf

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:

Frontiers | Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont

Reef building corals associated with symbiotic algae (zooxanthellae) can access environmental nutrients from different sources, most significantly via the up...

www.frontiersin.org

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Enrichment of reef environments with dissolved inorganic nutrients is considered a major threat to the survival of corals living in symbiosis with din…

www.sciencedirect.com

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

Phosphate contamination can negatively affect corals, modifying growth rates, skeletal density, reproduction, mortality, and zooxanthellae. We determi…

www.sciencedirect.com

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

SUMMARYSeveral untested aspects of the regulation of inorganic nutrient uptake were examined using nutrient depletion experiments with the symbiotic coral Stylophora pistillata. The total inhibition of phosphate uptake in artificial seawater lacking sodium indicates the involvement of a...

jeb.biologists.org

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality
Coral seperated from algae with a .02 µm filter die. Treatment with aampicillan prevents death.

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism

Benthic primary producers in tropical reef ecosystems can alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in the surrounding seawater. In order to quantify these influences, we measured rates of photosynthesis, respiration, and dissolved organic carbon (DOC) exudate release by the dominant...

peerj.com

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity

Benthic primary producers in marine ecosystems may significantly alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in their surrounding environment. To examine these interactions, we studied dissolved organic matter release by dominant benthic taxa and subsequent microbial remineralization in...

journals.plos.org

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starch and sugars (doc) caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/294/m294p173.pdf

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Planar optodes were used to visualize oxygen distribution patterns associated with a coral reef associated green algae (Chaetomorpha sp.) and a hermatypic coral (Favia sp.) separately, as standalone organisms, and placed in close proximity mimicking coral-algal interactions. Oxygen patterns were...

peerj.com

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates

Algae-derived dissolved organic matter has been hypothesized to induce mortality of reef building corals. One proposed killing mechanism is a zone of hypoxia created by rapidly growing microbes. To investigate this hypothesis, biological oxygen demand ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Human pressures on coral reefs are giving macroalgae a competitive advantage over reef-building corals. These algae support larger, and potentially pathogenic, microbial populations that are metabolically primed for less-efficient, yet faster, carbohydrate remineralization, perpetuating a...

www.nature.com

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages - PubMed

Increasing algal cover on tropical reefs worldwide may be maintained through feedbacks whereby algae outcompete coral by altering microbial activity. We hypothesized that algae and coral release compositionally distinct exudates that differentially alter bacterioplankton growth and community...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Error - Cookies Turned Off

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution

Labile dissolved organic carbon (DOC) is a major pollutant in coastal marine environments affected by anthropogenic impacts, and may significantly con…

www.sciencedirect.com

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton - The ISME Journal

Coastal pollution and algal cover are increasing on many coral reefs, resulting in higher dissolved organic carbon (DOC) concentrations. High DOC concentrations strongly affect microbial activity in reef waters and select for copiotrophic, often potentially virulent microbial populations. High...

www.nature.com

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs - PubMed

Recent work has shown that hydrophilic and hydrophobic organic matter (OM) from algae disrupts the function of the coral holobiont and promotes the invasion of opportunistic pathogens, leading to coral morbidity and mortality. Here we refer to these dynamics as the (3)DAM [dissolved organic...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance - PubMed

Diverse microbial communities associate with coral tissues and mucus, providing important protective and nutritional services, but once disturbed, the microbial equilibrium may shift from a beneficial state to one that is detrimental or pathogenic. Macroalgae (e.g., seaweeds) can physically and...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides - PubMed

With the continued and unprecedented decline of coral reefs worldwide, evaluating the factors that contribute to coral demise is of critical importance. As coral cover declines, macroalgae are becoming more common on tropical reefs. Interactions between these macroalgae and corals may alter the...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals - PubMed

Benthic macroalgae can be abundant on present-day coral reefs, especially where rates of herbivory are low and/or dissolved nutrients are high. This study investigated the impact of macroalgal extracts on both coral-associated bacterial assemblages and sublethal stress response of corals. Crude...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

https://elifesciences.org/articles/49114.pdf

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven

Global microbialization of coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Analysis of 60 sites in three ocean basins suggests that overgrowth of fleshy algae on coral reefs supports higher microbial abundances dominated by copiotrophic, potentially pathogenic bacteria via the provision of dissolved inorganic carbon.

www.nature.com

Because sponges are essential players in the carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus cycle(s) on reefs here's some links to research done with them.

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponges. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)

https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Marine sponges are ubiquitous colonizers of shallow, clear-water environments in the oceans (1, 2). Sponges have emerged as significant mediators of biogeochemical fluxes in coastal zones by virtue of respiring organic matter and facilitating both the consumption and release of nutrients (3, 4)...

www.pnas.org

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges
(Chris Kenndall had a problem with low PO4 and had problems raising it with Neophos. Samples sent off showed phosphorus crystals developing in some of the sponges in his system accounting for at least some of his systems consumption.)

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Coral reefs are highly productive ecosystems that raise a conundrum called “Darwin’s paradox”: How can high production flourish in low-nutrient conditions? We show here that in three abundant Caribbean sponges, the granules that have been commonly observed in sponge tissue for decades are...

www.pnas.org

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals

Error - Cookies Turned Off

besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.

(PDF) 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop

PDF | On Jun 23, 2015, Jasper M de Goeij and others published 2013 deGoeij Science Sponge loop | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

Coral-excavating sponges are the most important bioeroders on Caribbean reefs and increase in abundance throughout the region. This increase is commonly attributed to a concomitant increase in food availability due to eutrophication and pollution. We ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.

The role of marine sponges in carbon and nitrogen cycles of coral reef and nearshore environments - ProQuest

Explore millions of resources from scholarly journals, books, newspapers, videos and more, on the ProQuest Platform.

search.proquest.com

And since we're discussing favorable and not so favorable bacteria here's a paper looking at how different corals and polyps are influencing the bacteria in the water column.
Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms

Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms - PubMed

As coral reef habitats decline worldwide, some reefs are transitioning from coral- to algal-dominated benthos with the exact cause for this shift remaining elusive. Increases in the abundance of microbes in the water column has been correlated with an increase in coral disease and reduction in...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Cell · Oct 16, 2020

What took your PO4 from 0.1 yesterday to 0 today? Testing error? First box to check would be to get PO4 squared away.

Aussiemarine · Oct 16, 2020

Cabinetman said:
I’d be more inclined to think there was some sort of metal or something released into the water from the uv unit. Cuprisorb from seachem works good to absorb metals. It’s probably the best imo. I’ve used it after copper in my reef but it will also absorb other heavy metals. I think I read you’re running carbon too. Good move. The problem is that the damage could be already done to the corals and no matter what you do they might not make it. But at least with an icp test youll know where you stand. .

This was my thinking too - and although I have added the polyfilter you are right corals could have been taking a beating and are just too far gone where as some may have handled it okay and hence why they are still looking fine.

I might try cuprisorb I guess it can’t hurt and see if that removes anything.

If my ICP test comes back fine I think the only thing to do will be to just buy a co ole more corals and see how they settle in because everything new may end up being fine which is a good result in my books I’m just worried about adding anything new at this stage.

DeniableArc said:
Hi 0-0.1 is a huge daily swing given you have a Roller filter, fuge, algae scrubber I would guess you need more nutrients. My corals have looked so much better with at least 0.1-0.15 po4 and 5-10 nitrates and I quit carbon dosing all together to get these numbers, just a good skimmer and slow flow uv.

Cell said:
What took your PO4 from 0.1 yesterday to 0 today? Testing error? First box to check would be to get PO4 squared away.

thanks guys I really want to know what my phosphates are and maybe testing with Hana just isn’t working so an ICP rest will tell me exactly and I can go from there. I did add the poly filter after that 0.1 test result and a Small amount of phosguard so that may have taken up any in the water but I’m not really confident I have 0 or 0.1 - my algae growth suggests I have higher levels.

Aussiemarine · Oct 16, 2020

@Timfish thanks for that info! I don’t have a full blown algae issue it’s mainly in the back way and a little on the pumps / sand bed but there is a fair among - most of the rocks are covered in coralline so they don’t get algae growth on them really but I usually just scrub off the little bit on the rocks to give the coralline a chance to cover the rest. I’m not too fussed about having algae on the backwall but it was getting quite long. I only have a couple of trochus (they eat this stuff like crazy) but I have a bunch more in QT so when I add them that will help

paintman · Oct 16, 2020

Have you pisssed off your wife or girlfriend recently? Just something to chew on..............

Aussiemarine · Oct 16, 2020

paintman said:
Have you pisssed off your wife or girlfriend recently? Just something to chew on..............

LOL that’s a daily occurrence mate - but she loves the tank as much as I do. I do have two kids under 4 so thats looking suspicious ....

Aussiemarine · Oct 16, 2020

There is another thing - they always look much better during the first few hours of lights on and then look worse as the day goes on? Maybe that could indicate a lighting issue?

Aussiemarine · Oct 27, 2020

@Timfish
@Cabinetman
@Aquatican

So I received my ICP results today and it’s made me even more consumed, everything looks really good other that a little bit low calcium which wouldn’t cause these issues.

My LPS seem to do fine during the day but are retracted but early afternoon. My lights don’t turn on until 10am and off by 9pm so 11 hours total but 2 of those hours are pretty much blues only so I dont think it’s a lighting problem.

Any other ideas here?

Timfish · Oct 28, 2020

Like Cell said I'm thinking your PO4 may be the issue. Besides corals there's all kinds of stuff messing with it. Last year one of the local reefers seems to have had a similar problem with PO4 dropping really fast whenever it was dosed. You might check it's being consumed by dosing and testing everyday for a few days. We were able to find somebody to look at some of sponge samples from his tank and there were phosphorus crystals forming in the tissue with in a day of dosing. We don't think think that the sponges came anywhere close to sequestering all the phosphate that was being added to his system as there's lots of other stuff going on like biofilms and fungii and so on but it was a good example of how fast the biology in the system can change the chemistry.

Aussiemarine · Oct 28, 2020

Timfish said:
Like Cell said I'm thinking your PO4 may be the issue. Besides corals there's all kinds of stuff messing with it. Last year one of the local reefers seems to have had a similar problem with PO4 dropping really fast whenever it was dosed. You might check it's being consumed by dosing and testing everyday for a few days. We were able to find somebody to look at some of sponge samples from his tank and there were phosphorus crystals forming in the tissue with in a day of dosing. We don't think think that the sponges came anywhere close to sequestering all the phosphate that was being added to his system as there's lots of other stuff going on like biofilms and fungii and so on but it was a good example of how fast the biology in the system can change the chemistry.

Thanks as in its to low or to high? Test is usually around 0.01 - that’s what the triton test came back with to. I thought a small amount like Th at was ideal?