Experienced reefer puzzled at fish deaths

[eddoc83]

Hey guys,

I am a fairly experienced reefer coming up on I think 8 years of reefing. For the last 5 years I had a 85 gallon mixed reef tank going that I recently upgraded to a Reefer max G2+ 625. Its been up and running for about 3.5 months now. To change over to the new tank I reused about 50 percent of my water, all my rock, added about 60 pounds of rock, two bottles of bacteria, waited a few weeks (got no ammonia spike, no cycle that I could detect at all) and then started adding fish. All my coral survived the transfer and is doing incredibly well. I added a LOT of new frags to be honest to fill out the tank a bit since its double the size. Added a partnered coral banded couple, doing great. Clean up crew with multiple crabs, snails, red footed hermit crabs etc. All of that is doing incredibly well, and I havent seen my frags look this good in years. That is not the problem. The problem is with the fish. I am experiencing sudden fish deaths. IE the fish are acting totally fine and then suddenly vthey disappear or I find their bodies with no signs of illness. Usually are half eaten by the crabs by the time I find them again. I had absolutely no idea what is happening as the fish generally have no signs of disease, are eating well right up until the night before I find them dead. Some snails seem to have died too, mainly nerite snails seem to be affected. All the others seem fine. My first instinct was is some contaminant getting into the tank? ( we have a house cleaner who comes once a month to help) and I told her do not spray anything into the air near the tank or in the same room, dont wipe my tank down etc. Deaths are continuing so I know its not that. My parameters are pretty solid too. One of my reefing buddies suggested maybe uronema? But i see no skin manifestations or sores on the fish. This type of situation ring any bells for any you? Its gotten serious and I am afraid I am going to lose all my fish livestock at this point. And many of the fish seem completely unaffected which confuses me even more.

Affected thus far:
Flame angel
hippo tang
Powder brown
6 line wrasse
4 orchid dottybacks
2 cardinals
anthias
maybe 2 flames (they hide as you know so im not sure, purple firefish i have in there is still fine)

Parameters (hanna multiparameter spectrophotometer an hour ago)
pH: 8.3
Ammonia: 0.0
Nitrate: 12 (was like 3-5 prior to the fish deaths starting)
Nitrite: 0.0
Phos: 0.02
KH: 10.8
Ca: 487
Mg: 1100

I dose the new red sea complete reef care 4 part system.

Running GFO in the media container under my reefmat.

Thanks for the help all, I am truly lost.

(And I just noticed another cardinal actively dying). Floating around in the water column gettting pushed around by the wavemakers, no signs of fin rot, no signs of any skin lesions, ich, erythema to the skin).

 

[Nano_Man]

I had a large reef years ago and everything coral and critters thrived in it from day 1
But I could not keep a fish alive until it was six months old then I never lost a fish in that reef
And it was exactly like you described and all parameters were good
It’s a hard one when no signs of illness and water is good. Maybe send your water off to see if anything stands out.
So what kills fish
Ammonia
Low oxygen
Disease
Bullying from other fish STRESS
Bad water high levels
Over stocking
Large parameter swings
Getting startled and hitting rocks and objects in the tank
Have you any large clean up crew or anemones that would nail your fish when lights out . Hold on I have a good friend @vetteguy53081

 

[IrezumiHurts]

Hey guys,

I am a fairly experienced reefer coming up on I think 8 years of reefing. For the last 5 years I had a 85 gallon mixed reef tank going that I recently upgraded to a Reefer max G2+ 625. Its been up and running for about 3.5 months now. To change over to the new tank I reused about 50 percent of my water, all my rock, added about 60 pounds of rock, two bottles of bacteria, waited a few weeks (got no ammonia spike, no cycle that I could detect at all) and then started adding fish. All my coral survived the transfer and is doing incredibly well. I added a LOT of new frags to be honest to fill out the tank a bit since its double the size. Added a partnered coral banded couple, doing great. Clean up crew with multiple crabs, snails, red footed hermit crabs etc. All of that is doing incredibly well, and I havent seen my frags look this good in years. That is not the problem. The problem is with the fish. I am experiencing sudden fish deaths. IE the fish are acting totally fine and then suddenly vthey disappear or I find their bodies with no signs of illness. Usually are half eaten by the crabs by the time I find them again. I had absolutely no idea what is happening as the fish generally have no signs of disease, are eating well right up until the night before I find them dead. Some snails seem to have died too, mainly nerite snails seem to be affected. All the others seem fine. My first instinct was is some contaminant getting into the tank? ( we have a house cleaner who comes once a month to help) and I told her do not spray anything into the air near the tank or in the same room, dont wipe my tank down etc. Deaths are continuing so I know its not that. My parameters are pretty solid too. One of my reefing buddies suggested maybe uronema? But i see no skin manifestations or sores on the fish. This type of situation ring any bells for any you? Its gotten serious and I am afraid I am going to lose all my fish livestock at this point. And many of the fish seem completely unaffected which confuses me even more.

Affected thus far:
Flame angel
hippo tang
Powder brown
6 line wrasse
4 orchid dottybacks
2 cardinals
anthias
maybe 2 flames (they hide as you know so im not sure, purple firefish i have in there is still fine)

Parameters (hanna multiparameter spectrophotometer an hour ago)
pH: 8.3
Ammonia: 0.0
Nitrate: 12 (was like 3-5 prior to the fish deaths starting)
Nitrite: 0.0
Phos: 0.02
KH: 10.8
Ca: 487
Mg: 1100

I dose the new red sea complete reef care 4 part system.

Running GFO in the media container under my reefmat.

Thanks for the help all, I am truly lost.

(And I just noticed another cardinal actively dying). Floating around in the water column gettting pushed around by the wavemakers, no signs of fin rot, no signs of any skin lesions, ich, erythema to the skin).

My opinion, when nothing else makes sense in an otherwise healthy looking system, is uronema. But you generally would see red bands/sores at least on your angels and anthias. However Ive had mass fish death in one tank with no symptoms, until one day a butterfly presented with red bands. Then it all made sense.

I did an aquabiomics eDNA test an confirmed i had uronema marinum in the system. I had only been using copper and general cure up to that point, now formalin is part of my regiment.

@Jay Hemdal has an interesting observation that uronema tends to be worse in new tanks or new shipped fish, that im inclined to believe 100%. I have an older DT that has it, no issues with any inhabitants. But im constantly fighting it in QT settings. i dont think the correlation is understood, but it might be an issue of equilibrium, it is normally an opportistic detritovore parasite but can sometimes jump to fish with devastating results, even though you used aged rock its still working through being a new tank. If anything the old rock has a high likelyhood of carrying it unless you were specifically targetting treating it in your DT with chloroquine phosphate or formalin, which i assume you werent.

Hopefully it is something easier to deal with, but thats where my money is at from what you said. Do some research and further observation in your tank before committing, none of the conventional treatments are reef safe and also potential safety hazards, its not something to attack blindly

 

[MnFish1]

This sounds like 2 things - a toxin or velvet - The reason is - mainly the speed. The only reason I didn't just say velvet is 1) not enough history (i.e. other symptoms of the fish, etc) - fast breathing? scratching? and 2) - it may be coincidental - but the dead snail leads to a different potential diagnosis list.

Edit - Many of these species are not that common to get velvet.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hey guys,

I am a fairly experienced reefer coming up on I think 8 years of reefing. For the last 5 years I had a 85 gallon mixed reef tank going that I recently upgraded to a Reefer max G2+ 625. Its been up and running for about 3.5 months now. To change over to the new tank I reused about 50 percent of my water, all my rock, added about 60 pounds of rock, two bottles of bacteria, waited a few weeks (got no ammonia spike, no cycle that I could detect at all) and then started adding fish. All my coral survived the transfer and is doing incredibly well. I added a LOT of new frags to be honest to fill out the tank a bit since its double the size. Added a partnered coral banded couple, doing great. Clean up crew with multiple crabs, snails, red footed hermit crabs etc. All of that is doing incredibly well, and I havent seen my frags look this good in years. That is not the problem. The problem is with the fish. I am experiencing sudden fish deaths. IE the fish are acting totally fine and then suddenly vthey disappear or I find their bodies with no signs of illness. Usually are half eaten by the crabs by the time I find them again. I had absolutely no idea what is happening as the fish generally have no signs of disease, are eating well right up until the night before I find them dead. Some snails seem to have died too, mainly nerite snails seem to be affected. All the others seem fine. My first instinct was is some contaminant getting into the tank? ( we have a house cleaner who comes once a month to help) and I told her do not spray anything into the air near the tank or in the same room, dont wipe my tank down etc. Deaths are continuing so I know its not that. My parameters are pretty solid too. One of my reefing buddies suggested maybe uronema? But i see no skin manifestations or sores on the fish. This type of situation ring any bells for any you? Its gotten serious and I am afraid I am going to lose all my fish livestock at this point. And many of the fish seem completely unaffected which confuses me even more.

Affected thus far:
Flame angel
hippo tang
Powder brown
6 line wrasse
4 orchid dottybacks
2 cardinals
anthias
maybe 2 flames (they hide as you know so im not sure, purple firefish i have in there is still fine)

Parameters (hanna multiparameter spectrophotometer an hour ago)
pH: 8.3
Ammonia: 0.0
Nitrate: 12 (was like 3-5 prior to the fish deaths starting)
Nitrite: 0.0
Phos: 0.02
KH: 10.8
Ca: 487
Mg: 1100

I dose the new red sea complete reef care 4 part system.

Running GFO in the media container under my reefmat.

Thanks for the help all, I am truly lost.

(And I just noticed another cardinal actively dying). Floating around in the water column gettting pushed around by the wavemakers, no signs of fin rot, no signs of any skin lesions, ich, erythema to the skin).

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

It wasn’t clear to me - were these all fish from your old tank or were they new purchases? If the latter, did you quarantine them?

With corals and invertebrates doing well you can literally rule out all water quality issues, as inverts are more sensitive than fish.

Low level fish losses may not be related, but when they are, the cause is usually flukes. The symptom of flukes can be pretty subtle.

 

[eddoc83]

I had a large reef years ago and everything coral and critters thrived in it from day 1
But I could not keep a fish alive until it was six months old then I never lost a fish in that reef
And it was exactly like you described and all parameters were good
It’s a hard one when no signs of illness and water is good. Maybe send your water off to see if anything stands out.
So what kills fish
Ammonia
Low oxygen
Disease
Bullying from other fish STRESS
Bad water high levels
Over stocking
Large parameter swings
Getting startled and hitting rocks and objects in the tank
Have you any large clean up crew or anemones that would nail your fish when lights out . Hold on I have a good friend @vetteguy53081

I really think this has to be some sort of disease. Because my ammonia is 0. Ive got a skimmer and aggressive wave action at the surface of my tank so I doubt the system is hypoxic.

Bullying from my PBT was my #1 guess at first. But now the tang is dead is too and fish are continuing to die. Its not a level thing, I use RODI from my own system with 0 TDS. I do have a bunch of BTAs that are thriving and a clean up crew with a few crabs. I dont think its likely that crabs or other CUC members are bothering fish.

 

[Septurn]

I really think this has to be some sort of disease. Because my ammonia is 0. Ive got a skimmer and aggressive wave action at the surface of my tank so I doubt the system is hypoxic.

Bullying from my PBT was my #1 guess at first. But now the tang is dead is too and fish are continuing to die. Its not a level thing, I use RODI from my own system with 0 TDS. I do have a bunch of BTAs that are thriving and a clean up crew with a few crabs. I dont think its likely that crabs or other CUC members are bothering fish.

True

 

[eddoc83]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

It wasn’t clear to me - were these all fish from your old tank or were they new purchases? If the latter, did you quarantine them?

With corals and invertebrates doing well you can literally rule out all water quality issues, as inverts are more sensitive than fish.

Low level fish losses may not be related, but when they are, the cause is usually flukes. The symptom of flukes can be pretty subtle

Hey Jay thanks for the reply. So I will rewind a little bit. When I had the old tank I had a mass fish die off event too which lead me to leave the tank alone for probably 8 months. In those 8 months i had two clowns and a hawkfish which were totally fine and thriving as was the rest of the coral. Once I upgraded to the reefer I introduced probably 15 fish over 2 months. So i had a weird very similar die off event in the old tank too pre the new fish addition. I posted above I am now seeing a cardinal who is clearly moribund floating around being blown around by the wavemakers. No sores no skin issues, maybe a few ratty looking fins but nothing is obviously wrong with the fish externally anyway. ***, I feel like a terrible fish owner.

 

[eddoc83]

This sounds like 2 things - a toxin or velvet - The reason is - mainly the speed. The only reason I didn't just say velvet is 1) not enough history (i.e. other symptoms of the fish, etc) - fast breathing? scratching? and 2) - it may be coincidental - but the dead snail leads to a different potential diagnosis list.

Edit - Many of these species are not that common to get velvet.

So the only symptoms ive actually witnessed in any fish that seem atypical are:

Ive got a midas blenny that is still alive and well and on occasion hell swim from the top of the tank to the bottom and sort of slam his head into the sand a few times and then stops and all is well.

The cardinal thats currently moribund i saw earlier is basically swimming around the tank nearly lifeless....occasionally trying to swim but is being blown around by the wavemakers. No sores of any sort...I have seen a little bit of panting in some of the other fish in the days leading up to their death.

 

[Cell]

Tank has been up for 3.5 months using existing rock. 15 fish over the last 8 weeks. All fish from same source? Are you sure you are getting healthy fish that are then getting infected in your system or are you just getting infected fish from the store?

 

[eddoc83]

My opinion, when nothing else makes sense in an otherwise healthy looking system, is uronema. But you generally would see red bands/sores at least on your angels and anthias. However Ive had mass fish death in one tank with no symptoms, until one day a butterfly presented with red bands. Then it all made sense.

I did an aquabiomics eDNA test an confirmed i had uronema marinum in the system. I had only been using copper and general cure up to that point, now formalin is part of my regiment.

@Jay Hemdal has an interesting observation that uronema tends to be worse in new tanks or new shipped fish, that im inclined to believe 100%. I have an older DT that has it, no issues with any inhabitants. But im constantly fighting it in QT settings. i dont think the correlation is understood, but it might be an issue of equilibrium, it is normally an opportistic detritovore parasite but can sometimes jump to fish with devastating results, even though you used aged rock its still working through being a new tank. If anything the old rock has a high likelyhood of carrying it unless you were specifically targetting treating it in your DT with chloroquine phosphate or formalin, which i assume you werent.

Hopefully it is something easier to deal with, but thats where my money is at from what you said. Do some research and further observation in your tank before committing, none of the conventional treatments are reef safe and also potential safety hazards, its not something to attack blindly

Will do. Would be interesting to send off that aquabiomics test. But ive got a good friend from med school who is a reefer of 20+ years and this is literally the first thing he said to me...hes like ibet you have uronema.

 

[eddoc83]

Tank has been up for 3.5 months using existing rock. 15 fish over the last 8 weeks. All fish from same source? Are you sure you are getting healthy fish that are then getting infected in your system or are you just getting infected fish from the store?

Fish are a mix from my LFS and a few are from lifeaquaria. All affected.

 

[Naekuh]

did you reuse the sand without giving it a through rinse?

 

[Cell]

Not sure what it is, but if you did not medically QT these fish it's almost certain they brought something bad in. In the short term, I would isolate any affected fish and hope it doesn't spread to all. If flukes are suspected, you'll need to pull affected fish for FW dip anyway.

 

[eddoc83]

did you reuse the sand without giving it a through rinse?

I used new live sand. Aragalive.

 

[eddoc83]

Not sure what it is, but if you did not medically QT these fish it's almost certain they brought something bad in. In the short term, I would isolate any affected fish and hope it doesn't spread to all. If flukes are suspected, you'll need to pull affected fish for FW dip anyway.

Yeah. They werent quarantined. I am going to have to setup a QT going forward. Especially so now that I have some serious $$ invested in this tank. That part was my fault and my stupidity. Ive been using my LFS for years, the owner has a PhD in marine biology and hes told me he quarantines all new fish for several weeks before sale....and I believed him. Womp.

 

[eddoc83]

Another thing that may or may not be correlated to whats going on is I occasionally stir up my sand bed to get all the detritus into the water column between WCs. And it seems like i had a larger fish kill (the dottybacks) the night after the last stirring event. Not sure if that means anything to anyone.

 

[IrezumiHurts]

Will do. Would be interesting to send off that aquabiomics test. But ive got a good friend from med school who is a reefer of 20+ years and this is literally the first thing he said to me...hes like ibet you have uronema.

Bear in mind the test will take you almost a month to get results back, from the time you order to the time they post. So its a good confirmation tool with some significant temporal drawbacks.

I didnt want to dismiss other opinions here but i think you arrived at some conclusions I did also - there is very little chance of being hypoxic in a tank your size because you likely have a skimmer. The fact that your inverts are otherwise fine is a huge clue to essentially rule out toxins and such, as they are generally waaay more sensitive than fish.

So that really only leaves ich, brook, velvet, flukes, and uronema as most likely causes.

Ich brook and velvet usually present with some pretty obvious signs visually, i mean you have a pretty big kill list, at least one of those fish should have been covered in white stuff of some sort.

So by that elimination you are kinda down to uronema and flukes, both which are difficult to see. You could do a FW dip in a contrasting container to help rule out flukes, but that you haven't seen a lot of raggedy looking, heavy breathing, decreased appetite or even visual signs of flukes makes me think it's possible but less likely. But when the fish look perfectly fine, breathing fine, eating fine, then literally then next morning it's dead, then the next morning another, then the next morning two more...boom boom boom they just keep dropping with no obvious signs?

I've been there, it's frustrating. You are not a terrible fish owner. I felt like a total failure when I hit this wall and didn't know why, and lost hundreds of dollars in fish and am still working through the challenges of prophylactically treating it (which is ambitious in its own right). I hope I'm 100% wrong, and there are a lot of way more experienced people here you should listen to. But every part of my ape brain says uronema in flashing lights based on the symptoms and tank context you provided.

 

[MnFish1]

Many tanks with no disease or symptoms at all have Uronema. The Aquabiomics may say its there - but - its probably in many many many tanks (with no negative consequences)

 

[eddoc83]

Bear in mind the test will take you almost a month to get results back, from the time you order to the time they post. So its a good confirmation tool with some significant temporal drawbacks.

I didnt want to dismiss other opinions here but i think you arrived at some conclusions I did also - there is very little chance of being hypoxic in a tank your size because you likely have a skimmer. The fact that your inverts are otherwise fine is a huge clue to essentially rule out toxins and such, as they are generally waaay more sensitive than fish.

So that really only leaves ich, brook, velvet, flukes, and uronema as most likely causes.

Ich brook and velvet usually present with some pretty obvious signs visually, i mean you have a pretty big kill list, at least one of those fish should have been covered in white stuff of some sort.

So by that elimination you are kinda down to uronema and flukes, both which are difficult to see. You could do a FW dip in a contrasting container to help rule out flukes, but that you haven't seen a lot of raggedy looking, heavy breathing, decreased appetite or even visual signs of flukes makes me think it's possible but less likely. But when the fish look perfectly fine, breathing fine, eating fine, then literally then next morning it's dead, then the next morning another, then the next morning two more...boom boom boom they just keep dropping with no obvious signs?

I've been there, it's frustrating. You are not a terrible fish owner. I felt like a total failure when I hit this wall and didn't know why, and lost hundreds of dollars in fish and am still working through the challenges of prophylactically treating it (which is ambitious in its own right). I hope I'm 100% wrong, and there are a lot of way more experienced people here you should listen to. But every part of my ape brain says uronema in flashing lights based on the symptoms and tank context you provided.

I think you are probably right. This is a very strange and uncomfortable territory for me. You can prob tell by my handle but I’m a human physician. So I’m used to having ideas of what’s causing a disease in a patient and being able to test to confirm my suspicion. So having no testing for these diseases sucks!! And yes. It seems like one by one I’m having a fish die. Acting fine. And then I notice they’re gone and find their body being eaten by a crab or coral banded. There is definitely no prodromal period where I notice they’re acting sick. And if there is it’s hours long. And I work like a dog lately so il not home staring at the tank constantly to notice subtle changes.