Ethics article and discussion of marine aquarium trade

Reniva Ma

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Here’s a mini informal article I wrote about sustainability and ethics of this hobby. Love to see options and enjoy

(Context I’m a reefer and a coral/fish retailer or as u might know a lfs)

I’m a strong believer in the benefits of the hobby, the happiness, money and opportunities it can bring to people as well as giving back to the environment but I do not believe there is a clear cut answer. The marine hobby gets a horrible reputation because the very sentiment of taking a fish from the wild and endangered ecosystem such as the reefs and putting it in a box sounds horrible. From what I’ve seen a lot of evidence from the against side is outdated and not backed. One is that many fish are collected by cyanide, this is absolutely not true anymore as it has been outlawed and the high mortality rates along the supply chain have drastically lowered the demand in favor of healthier specimens. Also that 99% of marine fish die within a year is Not quantified at all and getting a accurate statistic like that is near impossible. I have put points on both sides to explore and I would love to hear your opinions.

Pros:
It’s a good source of money for retailers, wholesalers fish collectors and even hobbyists

Brings immense happiness for the enjoyers of the hobby

Makes way for education learning and love for natural reefs. So this point I picked up because there is large debate between the difference of taking a fish for a aquarium and and one to eat is not much different. Out of some sources it is estimated that about 40-60 million saltwater fish are exported from the oceans each year compared to about 90-95 million tonnes of fish from the fishing industry, going on the high side, assuming that one fish is about 10 lbs each that’s about 19 billion individual fish (probably double) caught by the commercial fishing industry… and OUR practices are considered unsustainable… now a regular consumer who eats a fish sandwich 100% cares less about the fish than someone who is buying one for their tank to love and cherish. In fact one of the guys in chasing coral the Netflix documentary bringing awareness and funding for the loss of our natural reefs was Inspired by his experience owning a home marine aquarium. A lot of the biggest reefers are the largest marine conservation advocates found in high positions in public aquariums etc. I’ve personally found reefers to be the people who care the most about the natural reefs and in my personal experience reefers are some of the people who know most about coral and fish in the world.

Coral banks, because of the marine hobby it has created around 1 million miniature coral banks that propagate and keep coral safe so we can enjoy living specimens even after the impending disappearance of the reefs.

Captive breeding programs (including fish and coral and inverts), development of technology, and research, a lot of these have been done a perfected for the marine aquarium trade and is also used in public aquarium and for reef conservation. The topic of captive breeding coral has been a large topic of many reefers due to the impending shutdown of export for marine Aquaria world wide. It is true that the majority of captive aquarium fish are wild caught but I believe that the shutdown of wild fish imports will drastically lower the amount of people going into the hobby which will lower the awareness for natural reefs.

Cons:
Death, as a hobbyist and retailer, it is undeniable the amount of live stock is loss to shipping, stress, disease, and poor husbandry. The number is much higher than I would like but that being said; how does that compare to the food fishing industry? In both cases the animal ends up dead.

Ethics of keeping aquarium fish in not their natural habitat. Many people argue that fish kept in glass boxes forced to swim in circles is cruel. But I believe that this is a gross personification of a animal which is very rarely acceptable. Animals are not humans they do not feel the same way we do and to my knowledge they do not care as long as their fed and happy, in a correct tank size and husbandry. In my experience being in the reptile hobby for 7 years, it’s a lot less of a nightmare because most marine fish are quite intolerant of inadequate conditions making so that keeping them properly is needed for success compared to reptiles where it is all too often you’ll see a animal being abused but won’t die due to hardiness. I also notice that freshwater fish die wayyy more often for no reason than marine fish when kept well but this is mostly anecdotal so take that as you will. This being said it is unacceptable to abuse fish or any animal. This brings up another topic on how some people in the hobby see fish as disposable which is true but I do not see it as much different than leaving a fish fillet out too long and just buying a new one

Environmental impact. This is a major concern amoung many people for good reason but studies in Hawaii have proven that export of marine species for the fish trade has no environment impact on wild populations and it’s actually the food fishes that are seeing decline. I do not know if this is the case however in other countries who export. Of course collecting fish from the wild should be avoided anyways but due to how niche and small the hobby is I doubt it has any significant impact.

So, what do you think? I personally believe this hobby brings much more positive than negative much of the controversy comes from people who are not involved in the hobby and there fore do not see the beauty in it. They’ll happily tell you to stop your tank but repulse if you tell them to stop eating fish. I’m happy to hear your opinions whatever side your on.

Sources
https://ourworldindata.org/fish-and-overfishing#:~:text=What's%20striking%20is%20that%20global,over%20100%20million%20per%20year.


https://www.csmonitor.com/Environme...l-tropical-fish-trade-loom-perilous-practices

https://www.humanedecisions.com/pet...e-aquarium-trade-why-its-cruel-and-unethical/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7692700/
 

Jay Hemdal

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Thanks for focusing on this issue, it is one that I've worked on for many years. I used to teach a college seminar on "Aquarium Ethics" at U of M, Ann Arbor. It was interesting to see all the different opinions that the students had.

I do agree that the benefits of the hobby outweigh the negatives,

One specific comment:

"One is that many fish are collected by cyanide, this is absolutely not true anymore as it has been outlawed and the high mortality rates along the supply chain have drastically lowered the demand in favor of healthier specimens." - Actually cyanide use is still rampant and the mortality rates of fish from SE Asia is still too high. Take a look at this link:

Jay
 

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One specific comment:

"One is that many fish are collected by cyanide, this is absolutely not true anymore as it has been outlawed and the high mortality rates along the supply chain have drastically lowered the demand in favor of healthier specimens." - Actually cyanide use is still rampant and the mortality rates of fish from SE Asia is still too high. Take a look at this link:

Jay
This is also what I was going to mention is how actually Cyanide is outlawed in many countries but doesn’t prevent it from being used. And in other countries it’s not even outlawed.
 

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Hi, I read your post and thanks for bringing up the topic.


Ethics

The problem I find with the idea of 'Ethics' is . Can one agree on a common concept of what ethics is and more importantly how one decides on what is ethical. For me personally I understand ethics as two things:

1. Personal ethics, a series of compromises between ones desires and the possible negative consequences in feeding those desires or the feeling of guilt.

2. Professional Ethics, following a set of regulations or Laws within the spirit of such. Once again in setting such regulations, compromises are made via committee to enable a practical set of protocols and minimise unnecessary collateral.

Based on my personal interpretation of Ethics as shown above;

1. Personal Ethics, I believe my practices as an aquarist are ethical. But only due to a compromise over my feelings of guilt. However this balance is constantly under consideration. I would also agree this is not objective.

2. Professional Ethics, as a professional, including but not exclusive to as an LFS owner. I have always endeavoured to follow the law and regulations in the spirit of which they where intended.


PROS AND CONS

You have headings for Pros and Cons, but the reality is you have just stated what you regard as Pros. Every Con you have stated is followed up by a virtual dismissal.

A great deal of what you state in my opinion is what you imagine rather than objective research.

I see absolutely no reason to compare the aquarium trade with the commercial food fish trade. The majority of marine aquarium animals are specific to the coral reefs biodiversity. The vast majority of food fishing especially commercial fishing is not carried out on tropical reefs. Tropical reefs are under immense pressure from changing climate and rightly so are protected. In Europe as well as many other waters the commercial food fish trade have more regulation than the ornamental trade. Including qualitative and quantative data, which is required to quantify sustainability of any practice.

Even if one takes the statement you make about commercial food fishing into account, two wrongs do not make a right.

I also don't understand how one quantifies the positive or negative impact of aquariums on the environment by weighing it against the benefits to human phycology. Or how this idea of engaging people with animals in home aquariums is phytologically linked to a direct physical interaction by the observer with regards protection of the worlds reefs.

What percentage of aquarists make actual donations or are active in conservation of tropical reefs?


CONCLUSION

Before the wrong impression is made, I am and have been a aquarist for many years, I was also the owner of a marine specialist aquarium store. I actively engage and donate to coral reef conservation projects.

I believe there are perfectly sustainable practices within the aquarium trade. Sustainable by meaning having little or no relative impact on the environment over an extended period of time.

There are in my experience some very conscientious operators in the ornamental aquatic trade with regards wild collection, including but not exclusive to, Quality Marine, Tropical Marine Centre, DeJong Marine life and Cairns Marine. There are also some highly regulated and professional commercial collectors within the USA waters, including Florida - West Atlantic and Hawaii. In Indonesia I have the greatest respect for the work carried out by LINI ( Gayatri Reksodihardjo-Lilley) and the Coral Reef Aquarium Fisheries (Dr Paul Anderson)

I also believe greater regulation is needed across the trade and consequently the hobby. I do not believe that self regulation gives a broad enough coverage.

Having the greatest respect for the work of the companies I mentioned, dose not exclude me from questioning and where I feel there is a possible conflict, engaging with them in a way that may not be complimentary.

Tony Thompson.
 
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Reniva Ma

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Hi, I read your post and thanks for bringing up the topic.


Ethics

The problem I find with the idea of 'Ethics' is . Can one agree on a common concept of what ethics is and more importantly how one decides on what is ethical. For me personally I understand ethics as two things:

1. Personal ethics, a series of compromises between ones desires and the possible negative consequences in feeding those desires or the feeling of guilt.

2. Professional Ethics, following a set of regulations or Laws within the spirit of such. Once again in setting such regulations, compromises are made via committee to enable a practical set of protocols and minimise unnecessary collateral.

Based on my personal interpretation of Ethics as shown above;

1. Personal Ethics, I believe my practices as an aquarist are ethical. But only due to a compromise over my feelings of guilt. However this balance is constantly under consideration. I would also agree this is not objective.

2. Professional Ethics, as a professional, including but not exclusive to as an LFS owner. I have always endeavoured to follow the law and regulations in the spirit of which they where intended.


PROS AND CONS

You have headings for Pros and Cons, but the reality is you have just stated what you regard as Pros. Every Con you have stated is followed up by a virtual dismissal.

A great deal of what you state in my opinion is what you imagine rather than objective research.

I see absolutely no reason to compare the aquarium trade with the commercial food fish trade. The majority of marine aquarium animals are specific to the coral reefs biodiversity. The vast majority of food fishing especially commercial fishing is not carried out on tropical reefs. Tropical reefs are under immense pressure from changing climate and rightly so are protected. In Europe as well as many other waters the commercial food fish trade have more regulation than the ornamental trade. Including qualitative and quantative data, which is required to quantify sustainability of any practice.

Even if one takes the statement you make about commercial food fishing into account, two wrongs do not make a right.

I also don't understand how one quantifies the positive or negative impact of aquariums on the environment by weighing it against the benefits to human phycology. Or how this idea of engaging people with animals in home aquariums is phytologically linked to a direct physical interaction by the observer with regards protection of the worlds reefs.

What percentage of aquarists make actual donations or are active in conservation of tropical reefs?


CONCLUSION

Before the wrong impression is made, I am and have been a aquarist for many years, I was also the owner of a marine specialist aquarium store. I actively engage and donate to coral reef conservation projects.

I believe there are perfectly sustainable practices within the aquarium trade. Sustainable by meaning having little or no relative impact on the environment over an extended period of time.

There are in my experience some very conscientious operators in the ornamental aquatic trade with regards wild collection, including but not exclusive to, Quality Marine, Tropical Marine Centre, DeJong Marine life and Cairns Marine. There are also some highly regulated and professional commercial collectors within the USA waters, including Florida - West Atlantic and Hawaii. In Indonesia I have the greatest respect for the work carried out by LINI ( Gayatri Reksodihardjo-Lilley) and the Coral Reef Aquarium Fisheries (Dr Paul Anderson)

I also believe greater regulation is needed across the trade and consequently the hobby. I do not believe that self regulation gives a broad enough coverage.

Having the greatest respect for the work of the companies I mentioned, dose not exclude me from questioning and where I feel there is a possible conflict, engaging with them in a way that may not be complimentary.

Tony Thompson.
Hi, I read your post and thanks for bringing up the topic.


Ethics

The problem I find with the idea of 'Ethics' is . Can one agree on a common concept of what ethics is and more importantly how one decides on what is ethical. For me personally I understand ethics as two things:

1. Personal ethics, a series of compromises between ones desires and the possible negative consequences in feeding those desires or the feeling of guilt.

2. Professional Ethics, following a set of regulations or Laws within the spirit of such. Once again in setting such regulations, compromises are made via committee to enable a practical set of protocols and minimise unnecessary collateral.

Based on my personal interpretation of Ethics as shown above;

1. Personal Ethics, I believe my practices as an aquarist are ethical. But only due to a compromise over my feelings of guilt. However this balance is constantly under consideration. I would also agree this is not objective.

2. Professional Ethics, as a professional, including but not exclusive to as an LFS owner. I have always endeavoured to follow the law and regulations in the spirit of which they where intended.


PROS AND CONS

You have headings for Pros and Cons, but the reality is you have just stated what you regard as Pros. Every Con you have stated is followed up by a virtual dismissal.

A great deal of what you state in my opinion is what you imagine rather than objective research.

I see absolutely no reason to compare the aquarium trade with the commercial food fish trade. The majority of marine aquarium animals are specific to the coral reefs biodiversity. The vast majority of food fishing especially commercial fishing is not carried out on tropical reefs. Tropical reefs are under immense pressure from changing climate and rightly so are protected. In Europe as well as many other waters the commercial food fish trade have more regulation than the ornamental trade. Including qualitative and quantative data, which is required to quantify sustainability of any practice.

Even if one takes the statement you make about commercial food fishing into account, two wrongs do not make a right.

I also don't understand how one quantifies the positive or negative impact of aquariums on the environment by weighing it against the benefits to human phycology. Or how this idea of engaging people with animals in home aquariums is phytologically linked to a direct physical interaction by the observer with regards protection of the worlds reefs.

What percentage of aquarists make actual donations or are active in conservation of tropical reefs?


CONCLUSION

Before the wrong impression is made, I am and have been a aquarist for many years, I was also the owner of a marine specialist aquarium store. I actively engage and donate to coral reef conservation projects.

I believe there are perfectly sustainable practices within the aquarium trade. Sustainable by meaning having little or no relative impact on the environment over an extended period of time.

There are in my experience some very conscientious operators in the ornamental aquatic trade with regards wild collection, including but not exclusive to, Quality Marine, Tropical Marine Centre, DeJong Marine life and Cairns Marine. There are also some highly regulated and professional commercial collectors within the USA waters, including Florida - West Atlantic and Hawaii. In Indonesia I have the greatest respect for the work carried out by LINI ( Gayatri Reksodihardjo-Lilley) and the Coral Reef Aquarium Fisheries (Dr Paul Anderson)

I also believe greater regulation is needed across the trade and consequently the hobby. I do not believe that self regulation gives a broad enough coverage.

Having the greatest respect for the work of the companies I mentioned, dose not exclude me from questioning and where I feel there is a possible conflict, engaging with them in a way that may not be complimentary.

Tony Thompson.
 

MnFish1

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Also that 99% of marine fish die within a year is Not quantified at all and getting a accurate statistic like that is near impossible.

I am not sure where that statistic comes from, however, I believe that many of those statistics start when the fish leaves the ocean, not when the fish leaves the store?

The article was nice to read. There are many organizations out there that argue that zoos, public aquaria, etc should be banned entirely. Much of their logic seems faulty to me.

I would say, based on the number of people posting here (no formal numbers, just my opinion), though it might not be 99% a lot of people are buying new fish quite often.
 
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Reniva Ma

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Hi, I read your post and thanks for bringing up the topic.


Ethics

The problem I find with the idea of 'Ethics' is . Can one agree on a common concept of what ethics is and more importantly how one decides on what is ethical. For me personally I understand ethics as two things:

1. Personal ethics, a series of compromises between ones desires and the possible negative consequences in feeding those desires or the feeling of guilt.

2. Professional Ethics, following a set of regulations or Laws within the spirit of such. Once again in setting such regulations, compromises are made via committee to enable a practical set of protocols and minimise unnecessary collateral.

Based on my personal interpretation of Ethics as shown above;

1. Personal Ethics, I believe my practices as an aquarist are ethical. But only due to a compromise over my feelings of guilt. However this balance is constantly under consideration. I would also agree this is not objective.

2. Professional Ethics, as a professional, including but not exclusive to as an LFS owner. I have always endeavoured to follow the law and regulations in the spirit of which they where intended.


PROS AND CONS

You have headings for Pros and Cons, but the reality is you have just stated what you regard as Pros. Every Con you have stated is followed up by a virtual dismissal.

A great deal of what you state in my opinion is what you imagine rather than objective research.

I see absolutely no reason to compare the aquarium trade with the commercial food fish trade. The majority of marine aquarium animals are specific to the coral reefs biodiversity. The vast majority of food fishing especially commercial fishing is not carried out on tropical reefs. Tropical reefs are under immense pressure from changing climate and rightly so are protected. In Europe as well as many other waters the commercial food fish trade have more regulation than the ornamental trade. Including qualitative and quantative data, which is required to quantify sustainability of any practice.

Even if one takes the statement you make about commercial food fishing into account, two wrongs do not make a right.

I also don't understand how one quantifies the positive or negative impact of aquariums on the environment by weighing it against the benefits to human phycology. Or how this idea of engaging people with animals in home aquariums is phytologically linked to a direct physical interaction by the observer with regards protection of the worlds reefs.

What percentage of aquarists make actual donations or are active in conservation of tropical reefs?


CONCLUSION

Before the wrong impression is made, I am and have been a aquarist for many years, I was also the owner of a marine specialist aquarium store. I actively engage and donate to coral reef conservation projects.

I believe there are perfectly sustainable practices within the aquarium trade. Sustainable by meaning having little or no relative impact on the environment over an extended period of time.

There are in my experience some very conscientious operators in the ornamental aquatic trade with regards wild collection, including but not exclusive to, Quality Marine, Tropical Marine Centre, DeJong Marine life and Cairns Marine. There are also some highly regulated and professional commercial collectors within the USA waters, including Florida - West Atlantic and Hawaii. In Indonesia I have the greatest respect for the work carried out by LINI ( Gayatri Reksodihardjo-Lilley) and the Coral Reef Aquarium Fisheries (Dr Paul Anderson)

I also believe greater regulation is needed across the trade and consequently the hobby. I do not believe that self regulation gives a broad enough coverage.

Having the greatest respect for the work of the companies I mentioned, dose not exclude me from questioning and where I feel there is a possible conflict, engaging with them in a way that may not be complimentary.

Tony Thompson.
Hi thanks for your reply. Sorry I did not make this clear but the reason I am comparing the two is because commercial fishing is effecting the same ecosystem and has a much worse environmental impact than the ornamental fish trade. And it’s the fact that commercial fishing is not going away anytime soon while the ornamental fish trade is. Also the study which I provided in one of the source links unless I forgot to post it my bad is one that is about Hawaii. The trade of reef fishes for food vs the fish trade. The point really was that the ornamental fish trade is not getting treated fairly compared to other industry’s with more money. It is true that the reefs are critically endangered but still a large portion of food fish are harvested from there. The main reason I put pros and cons is that for many of the cons I could think if actual agreement behind them. That being said I do not think this hobby is clear cut at all and every fish out of the ocean is not good. I 100% support captive breeding but I believe this hobby gets a bad rap. But yes good regulation is never a bad thing and I believe this hobby is already heavily regulated but a good regulation is always better. Bringing my point to commercial fisheries, they are still suceptable
 
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Reniva Ma

Reniva Ma

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Hi, I read your post and thanks for bringing up the topic.


Ethics

The problem I find with the idea of 'Ethics' is . Can one agree on a common concept of what ethics is and more importantly how one decides on what is ethical. For me personally I understand ethics as two things:

1. Personal ethics, a series of compromises between ones desires and the possible negative consequences in feeding those desires or the feeling of guilt.

2. Professional Ethics, following a set of regulations or Laws within the spirit of such. Once again in setting such regulations, compromises are made via committee to enable a practical set of protocols and minimise unnecessary collateral.

Based on my personal interpretation of Ethics as shown above;

1. Personal Ethics, I believe my practices as an aquarist are ethical. But only due to a compromise over my feelings of guilt. However this balance is constantly under consideration. I would also agree this is not objective.

2. Professional Ethics, as a professional, including but not exclusive to as an LFS owner. I have always endeavoured to follow the law and regulations in the spirit of which they where intended.


PROS AND CONS

You have headings for Pros and Cons, but the reality is you have just stated what you regard as Pros. Every Con you have stated is followed up by a virtual dismissal.

A great deal of what you state in my opinion is what you imagine rather than objective research.

I see absolutely no reason to compare the aquarium trade with the commercial food fish trade. The majority of marine aquarium animals are specific to the coral reefs biodiversity. The vast majority of food fishing especially commercial fishing is not carried out on tropical reefs. Tropical reefs are under immense pressure from changing climate and rightly so are protected. In Europe as well as many other waters the commercial food fish trade have more regulation than the ornamental trade. Including qualitative and quantative data, which is required to quantify sustainability of any practice.

Even if one takes the statement you make about commercial food fishing into account, two wrongs do not make a right.

I also don't understand how one quantifies the positive or negative impact of aquariums on the environment by weighing it against the benefits to human phycology. Or how this idea of engaging people with animals in home aquariums is phytologically linked to a direct physical interaction by the observer with regards protection of the worlds reefs.

What percentage of aquarists make actual donations or are active in conservation of tropical reefs?


CONCLUSION

Before the wrong impression is made, I am and have been a aquarist for many years, I was also the owner of a marine specialist aquarium store. I actively engage and donate to coral reef conservation projects.

I believe there are perfectly sustainable practices within the aquarium trade. Sustainable by meaning having little or no relative impact on the environment over an extended period of time.

There are in my experience some very conscientious operators in the ornamental aquatic trade with regards wild collection, including but not exclusive to, Quality Marine, Tropical Marine Centre, DeJong Marine life and Cairns Marine. There are also some highly regulated and professional commercial collectors within the USA waters, including Florida - West Atlantic and Hawaii. In Indonesia I have the greatest respect for the work carried out by LINI ( Gayatri Reksodihardjo-Lilley) and the Coral Reef Aquarium Fisheries (Dr Paul Anderson)

I also believe greater regulation is needed across the trade and consequently the hobby. I do not believe that self regulation gives a broad enough coverage.

Having the greatest respect for the work of the companies I mentioned, dose not exclude me from questioning and where I feel there is a possible conflict, engaging with them in a way that may not be complimentary.

Tony Thompson.
I’m sorry for the weird replies I’m very new to posting on this forum, but they are susceptible to cyanide fishing
 
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Reniva Ma

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I am not sure where that statistic comes from, however, I believe that many of those statistics start when the fish leaves the ocean, not when the fish leaves the store?

The article was nice to read. There are many organizations out there that argue that zoos, public aquaria, etc should be banned entirely. Much of their logic seems faulty to me.

I would say, based on the number of people posting here (no formal numbers, just my opinion), though it might not be 99% a lot of people are buying new fish quite often.
The statistic comes from the free the fishes movement and is used by media like the dark hobby documentary. It’s also found in a lot of articles arguing against use that statistic too. I think I posted my sources sorry using this forum is confusing
 
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Reniva Ma

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Thanks for focusing on this issue, it is one that I've worked on for many years. I used to teach a college seminar on "Aquarium Ethics" at U of M, Ann Arbor. It was interesting to see all the different opinions that the students had.

I do agree that the benefits of the hobby outweigh the negatives,

One specific comment:

"One is that many fish are collected by cyanide, this is absolutely not true anymore as it has been outlawed and the high mortality rates along the supply chain have drastically lowered the demand in favor of healthier specimens." - Actually cyanide use is still rampant and the mortality rates of fish from SE Asia is still too high. Take a look at this link:

Jay
Hi thanks for the reply, even as a retailer I did not know this was still the case. Thank you for correcting me
 

MnFish1

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The point really was that the ornamental fish trade is not getting treated fairly compared to other industry’s with more money.
Actually, in many areas commercial fishing has been severely limited. You can goole areas where commercial fishing has been regulated out of business. I agree with the other poster - meant to make the same point, in your article your pros stand on their own, but your cons are immediately followed by a reason why they are 'not really cons'
 
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Reniva Ma

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Actually, in many areas commercial fishing has been severely limited. You can goole areas where commercial fishing has been regulated out of business. I agree with the other poster - meant to make the same point, in your article your pros stand on their own, but your cons are immediately followed by a reason why they are 'not really cons'
Yes that is true with the pros and cons. I do believe it’s an opinionated piece despite my attempt to not make it that way. I am well aware that commercial fishing has been regulated but the point is is that I know that there is a very high chance that export of marine aquaria will be shut down completely but commercial fishing will not because demand is too high
 
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Reniva Ma

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Actually, in many areas commercial fishing has been severely limited. You can goole areas where commercial fishing has been regulated out of business. I agree with the other poster - meant to make the same point, in your article your pros stand on their own, but your cons are immediately followed by a reason why they are 'not really cons'
This was originally a tangent that turned into an article, thank you all for pointing out the discrepancies so I can improve in the future. I’ve realized that my point is not very clear
 

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The statistic comes from the free the fishes movement and is used by media like the dark hobby documentary. It’s also found in a lot of articles arguing against use that statistic too. I think I posted my sources sorry using this forum is confusing
This is one of those quotes: "But the vast majority of fish taken from coral reefs in the ocean by the aquarium trade industry—die within one day, one week, or months of capture. More than 99 percent of all ornamental fish taken from the ocean die within one year of capture."

Coral Magazine has a new writeup - (CORAL Magazine Volume 20, Issue 3: FREE THE FISHES (May/June 2023). that covers most of the things you mention - with letters to the editor from well known aquarists.
 
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Reniva Ma

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This is one of those quotes: "But the vast majority of fish taken from coral reefs in the ocean by the aquarium trade industry—die within one day, one week, or months of capture. More than 99 percent of all ornamental fish taken from the ocean die within one year of capture."

Coral Magazine has a new writeup - (CORAL Magazine Volume 20, Issue 3: FREE THE FISHES (May/June 2023). that covers most of the things you mention - with letters to the editor from well known aquarists.
oh yes when I was researching this post I was wanting to get ahold of this article, but due to coral magazines transition onto the new platform most of the magazines were not on back order and I couldn’t find it. However the person that wrote the coral mag article did another speech at a marine aquarium conference in 2017 which is the brs link I have on that article.
 

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Hi Reniva.

Please don't misinterpret my intentions. I fully respect your perspective and appreciate your bringing up the topic. However I feel that many of your perceptions may not be the result of objective research.

Sorry I did not make this clear but the reason I am comparing the two is because commercial fishing is effecting the same ecosystem and has a much worse environmental impact than the ornamental fish trade. And it’s the fact that commercial fishing is not going away anytime soon while the ornamental fish trade is.

My point was, I would not consider the two the same ecosystem per se. The marine ecosystems are varied and complex. The vast majority of Ornamental Marine Animals are collected from one particular ecosystem, the Tropical Coral Reefs. I do agree that they are connected, however the greatest threat I think is to the delicate nature of tropical reefs and nurseries

This is a quote from the link you provided. I think it important to note that according to the data presented Aquaculture of food fish has overtaken wild capture. More fish are aqua cultured per tonne than captured from the wild.

"What’s striking is that global wild fish catch has not increased since the early 1990s and instead remained relatively constant at around 90 to 95 million tonnes per year. Fish farming on the other hand is growing very rapidly, from 1960 until 2015 it has increased 50-fold to over 100 million per year."

Attribute; Hannah Ritchie and Max Roser (2021) - “Fish and Overfishing” Published online at OurWorldInData.org. Retrieved from: 'https://ourworldindata.org/fish-and-overfishing'

Why do you say the ornamental fish trade is going away.?

I still don't understand how pointing out the negative effects of commercial food fishing supports an argument in favour of commercial ornamental collection?
 

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There are many organizations out there that argue that zoos, public aquaria, etc should be banned entirely. Much of their logic seems faulty to me.

This is true, however I have no record of legislative process with regard the aquarium hobby / trade that has been imposed due to petition by these radical groups who's sole intention is to ban all aquariums. I see no trend in that direction either.

There are however certain petitions that have gained ground and put through the legal process, but those petitions are not from groups who want to ban aquariums. In fact some of them work with public aquariums.

Like everything in life there is a middle ground, but the most radical voices are the ones often cited. Its like the bogeyman effect.
 
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Reniva Ma

Reniva Ma

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Hi Reniva.

Please don't misinterpret my intentions. I fully respect your perspective and appreciate your bringing up the topic. However I feel that many of your perceptions may not be the result of objective research.



My point was, I would not consider the two the same ecosystem per se. The marine ecosystems are varied and complex. The vast majority of Ornamental Marine Animals are collected from one particular ecosystem, the Tropical Coral Reefs. I do agree that they are connected, however the greatest threat I think is to the delicate nature of tropical reefs and nurseries

This is a quote from the link you provided. I think it important to note that according to the data presented Aquaculture of food fish has overtaken wild capture. More fish are aqua cultured per tonne than captured from the wild.

"What’s striking is that global wild fish catch has not increased since the early 1990s and instead remained relatively constant at around 90 to 95 million tonnes per year. Fish farming on the other hand is growing very rapidly, from 1960 until 2015 it has increased 50-fold to over 100 million per year."

Attribute; Hannah Ritchie and Max Roser (2021) - “Fish and Overfishing” Published online at OurWorldInData.org. Retrieved from: 'https://ourworldindata.org/fish-and-overfishing'

Why do you say the ornamental fish trade is going away.?

I still don't understand how pointing out the negative effects of commercial food fishing supports an argument in favour of commercial ornamental collection?
Oh no I’m not taking it the wrong way at all. Yes I do believe that the threat the coral reefs is the highest out of any marine ecosystem. I believe however the main decline of our reefs is rising water temperature, pollution, overfishing etc. the relative impact of the ornamental fish trade is low. I do know however that aquaculture fish are pretty common but even then the amount of wild fish taken from the ocean is still many times higher than the fish trade.

Also as a retailer, we’ve noticed that current regulations and legislation even in areas like SE asia are closing down on us. This is fact. Many people have talked about this one being fraggarage on the third video of his podcast. It is a very real sentiment that export of all marine wild life with be banned within the next decade. I don’t have any specific sources for this because this wasn’t something detailed in the article, but I’ve heard many importers and wholesalers I work with share this testiment. The main reason I compare the too is that to outsiders this hobby seems cruel, destructive and unethical and it has garnered the attention of many people. Yet I believe attacking the ornamental fish trade is not the solution and it is far from the greatest thing threatening our reefs compared to other industries like tourism, fishing, the usage of fossil fuels and this hobby brings a lot more positive while having not much measurable environmental impact.
 
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Reniva Ma

Reniva Ma

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Oh no I’m not taking it the wrong way at all. Yes I do believe that the threat the coral reefs is the highest out of any marine ecosystem. I believe however the main decline of our reefs is rising water temperature, pollution, overfishing etc. the relative impact of the ornamental fish trade is low. I do know however that aquaculture fish are pretty common but even then the amount of wild fish taken from the ocean is still many times higher than the fish trade.

Also as a retailer, we’ve noticed that current regulations and legislation even in areas like SE asia are closing down on us. This is fact. Many people have talked about this one being fraggarage on the third video of his podcast. It is a very real sentiment that export of all marine wild life with be banned within the next decade. I don’t have any specific sources for this because this wasn’t something detailed in the article, but I’ve heard many importers and wholesalers I work with share this testiment. The main reason I compare the too is that to outsiders this hobby seems cruel, destructive and unethical and it has garnered the attention of many people. Yet I believe attacking the ornamental fish trade is not the solution and it is far from the greatest thing threatening our reefs compared to other industries like tourism, fishing, the usage of fossil fuels and this hobby brings a lot more positive while having not much measurable environmental impact.
The destruction of our reefs is almost inevitable with or without the ornamental fish trade, I believe the statistic is by 2050 90% of natural reefs will be gone which is less than 30 years. My guess is that the reefs will be gone by the next century from the wild. And guess where will be the only place we will be able to see live coral… that’s right aquariums. Also I’m not taking anything you’re writing the wrong way I love hearing peoples opinions and having a discussion
 
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Reniva Ma

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Oh no I’m not taking it the wrong way at all. Yes I do believe that the threat the coral reefs is the highest out of any marine ecosystem. I believe however the main decline of our reefs is rising water temperature, pollution, overfishing etc. the relative impact of the ornamental fish trade is low. I do know however that aquaculture fish are pretty common but even then the amount of wild fish taken from the ocean is still many times higher than the fish trade.

Also as a retailer, we’ve noticed that current regulations and legislation even in areas like SE asia are closing down on us. This is fact. Many people have talked about this one being fraggarage on the third video of his podcast. It is a very real sentiment that export of all marine wild life with be banned within the next decade. I don’t have any specific sources for this because this wasn’t something detailed in the article, but I’ve heard many importers and wholesalers I work with share this testiment. The main reason I compare the too is that to outsiders this hobby seems cruel, destructive and unethical and it has garnered the attention of many people. Yet I believe attacking the ornamental fish trade is not the solution and it is far from the greatest thing threatening our reefs compared to other industries like tourism, fishing, the usage of fossil fuels and this hobby brings a lot more positive while having not much measurable environmental impact.
Hi Reniva.

Please don't misinterpret my intentions. I fully respect your perspective and appreciate your bringing up the topic. However I feel that many of your perceptions may not be the result of objective research.



My point was, I would not consider the two the same ecosystem per se. The marine ecosystems are varied and complex. The vast majority of Ornamental Marine Animals are collected from one particular ecosystem, the Tropical Coral Reefs. I do agree that they are connected, however the greatest threat I think is to the delicate nature of tropical reefs and nurseries

This is a quote from the link you provided. I think it important to note that according to the data presented Aquaculture of food fish has overtaken wild capture. More fish are aqua cultured per tonne than captured from the wild.

"What’s striking is that global wild fish catch has not increased since the early 1990s and instead remained relatively constant at around 90 to 95 million tonnes per year. Fish farming on the other hand is growing very rapidly, from 1960 until 2015 it has increased 50-fold to over 100 million per year."

Attribute; Hannah Ritchie and Max Roser (2021) - “Fish and Overfishing” Published online at OurWorldInData.org. Retrieved from: 'https://ourworldindata.org/fish-and-overfishing'

Why do you say the ornamental fish trade is going away.?

I still don't understand how pointing out the negative effects of commercial food fishing supports an argument in favour of commercial ornamental collection?
also in the study in Hawaii, which is found if you watch the brs link shows that reef fishes from the same area, it is only the food fishes that are seeing decline. The number given from 60 million vs 20-40 billion fish is still a massive gap and even if the fishing of reef fishes are a fraction of that number it is still many times higher than the fish trade. What part of my explanations are not objective research? By no means is taking fish out of the ocean okay but due to how small this hobby is and how relatively low demand is, whatever negative environment impact is tiny. It doesn’t excuse the environmental impact however, but I believe this hobby has a lot of good to bring into the table and the absolute extinction of this hobby will bring no better to the world than if it was still here
 

HAVE YOU EVER KEPT A RARE/UNCOMMON FISH, CORAL, OR INVERT? SHOW IT OFF IN THE THREAD!

  • Yes!

    Votes: 32 45.7%
  • Not yet, but I have one that I want to buy in mind!

    Votes: 9 12.9%
  • No.

    Votes: 26 37.1%
  • Other (please explain).

    Votes: 3 4.3%
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