Epoxy Resin and Reefing

[D3DPrintedThingz]

I know this has been talked about before and will be after this post, but here is another one for the pile. I am tinkering with epoxy resin and 3D printing. I have epoxy dyes, epoxy shimmer, and epoxy glitter, as well as a clear epoxy. I've also got colored sea glass and rocks, and have been placing all of these items in 3D printed stuffs. My questions I'm looking for

1) Does epoxy resin create an impermeable barrier between one side and the other? For instance, if a metal coin were to be encased in epoxy resin , and left to sit in the ocean, would water ever reach it? Two parter here, if water reaches it, I would assume that same water would eventually go back into the ocean, or my aquarium, or would it stay inside the resin where the coin is?

2) Epoxy dye, epoxy glitter, epoxy shimmer, it is essentially make-up powder like what the chicks use to trick us guys into spending more money on them. You mix it all together, so the only dye/shimmer that would be exposed to water is the outside layer of resin? If this were true, would a single layer of clear resin on top of the "toxic" layer of resin remove the chance of leeching into the water?

3) How would I test the contamination or lack thereof , if i were to set up a little aquarium and put these epoxy resin'd items in. What would you look for to know "ok, this is safe" vs. "ok, this is not a good idea" because I don't want to use my 2 year old 125 gallon aquarium as a test subject for my arts and crafts. lol!

4) is there a way to make epoxy resin shiny again after I sand it down? I like to have a nice even layer up against the magnets so make it look good, but only sand about 1/3 of the surface leaving it rough and unlike the shiny part. Youtube shows that you can use car polish, but I don't think car wax would be "reef safe" even if rinsed off afterwards, something has to be there still to make the resin shiny again

 

[Dburr1014]

I know this has been talked about before and will be after this post, but here is another one for the pile. I am tinkering with epoxy resin and 3D printing. I have epoxy dyes, epoxy shimmer, and epoxy glitter, as well as a clear epoxy. I've also got colored sea glass and rocks, and have been placing all of these items in 3D printed stuffs. My questions I'm looking for

1) Does epoxy resin create an impermeable barrier between one side and the other? For instance, if a metal coin were to be encased in epoxy resin , and left to sit in the ocean, would water ever reach it? Two parter here, if water reaches it, I would assume that same water would eventually go back into the ocean, or my aquarium, or would it stay inside the resin where the coin is?

2) Epoxy dye, epoxy glitter, epoxy shimmer, it is essentially make-up powder like what the chicks use to trick us guys into spending more money on them. You mix it all together, so the only dye/shimmer that would be exposed to water is the outside layer of resin? If this were true, would a single layer of clear resin on top of the "toxic" layer of resin remove the chance of leeching into the water?

3) How would I test the contamination or lack thereof , if i were to set up a little aquarium and put these epoxy resin'd items in. What would you look for to know "ok, this is safe" vs. "ok, this is not a good idea" because I don't want to use my 2 year old 125 gallon aquarium as a test subject for my arts and crafts. lol!

4) is there a way to make epoxy resin shiny again after I sand it down? I like to have a nice even layer up against the magnets so make it look good, but only sand about 1/3 of the surface leaving it rough and unlike the shiny part. Youtube shows that you can use car polish, but I don't think car wax would be "reef safe" even if rinsed off afterwards, something has to be there still to make the resin shiny again

Hmmm, lots of questions and I don't think I can answer all of them. But...

1) I would think, but not 100% sure, that if the resin is a solid piece, not 2 sandwiching the coin and glued, it would be impermeable. So you would have to cover the coin when the resin is wet and allow it to dry as 1 piece.

2) glitter, shimmer, ect. To risky. I personally would not use it, at all, in a reef tank.

3) resin in itself should be reef safe once fully cured.

4) like any plastics you have to sand it down using 1800 grit or finer and buff it. It should shine right up.

 

[brandon429]

Epoxy will degrade and crack in sw over time

 

[The_Paradox]

The short answer is epoxy is water permeable as are gel coats. Is it enough to matter, in my opinion no. If you really wanted to be anal you could use something less permeable like polymethylmethacrylate (PMMA) but even it will absorb water over time. General rule is everything breaks down.

 

[snorklr]

the guys from "Tanked" used to use some sort of clear coat over all the stupid stuff that had no place in an aquarium...what it was, how long it lasted, and if it was actually reef safe...I have no idea

 

[D3DPrintedThingz]

Thank you for the quick answers. For the pumps, wavemakers, frag racks with magnets, how are those able to keep water out from the magnets?

For example I am using a silicone mold about 2 mm bigger than the magnet so its completely encased, and then when I peel it off the raised part of the resin goes towards the back, and then another layer of resin seals it in place and also creates a layer of resin over the resin.

Any ideas on how to possibly test for contaminents in a small 5 gallon tank I could set up and monitor with resin crafts ? Like throw them in and do an ICP test or something, but not sure what I am monitoring or looking for would show up on an ICP ?

 

[JTP424]

I've used Smooth on in the past for small things..
Check this out:

Which Smooth-On materials are aquarium safe?

The following Smooth-On materials are designated as aquarium safe.

www.smooth-on.com

 

[The_Paradox]

Thank you for the quick answers. For the pumps, wavemakers, frag racks with magnets, how are those able to keep water out from the magnets?

For example I am using a silicone mold about 2 mm bigger than the magnet so its completely encased, and then when I peel it off the raised part of the resin goes towards the back, and then another layer of resin seals it in place and also creates a layer of resin over the resin.

Any ideas on how to possibly test for contaminents in a small 5 gallon tank I could set up and monitor with resin crafts ? Like throw them in and do an ICP test or something, but not sure what I am monitoring or looking for would show up on an ICP ?

For the mass we are talking about, you would need to conduct a pretty long term test. Easiest way would be to encapsulate something fairly harmless that’s water soluble and fairly easy to track. Then leave it in the environment measuring water samples every month to determine the rate of leeching and build a curve. Could also probably be done with pigments. As said before I don’t think it’s enough to worry about unless this was your materials thesis.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Epoxy is not a single thing. There are many different amines and epoxides that together can be used to make epoxy adhesives/resins. Asking about its properties is like asking if a "car" can go 120 mph.

I would also say that the way it is formed into a solid material will have a big effect on whether it cracks in a way that let's significant water penetrate it.

That said, there are certainly some that will protect a coin underwater. Many underwater devices are made of epoxy, including many conductivity and pH probes.


Seawater Effects on Thermally Aged Ambient Cured Carbon/Epoxy Composites: Moisture Kinetics and Uptake Characteristics

Seawater Effects on Thermally Aged Ambient Cured Carbon/Epoxy Composites: Moisture Kinetics and Uptake Characteristics

Carbon fiber-reinforced epoxy matrix composites using ambient- and moderate-temperature curing non-autoclave processes have broad applicability in marine, offshore, and naval applications. This research focuses on the characterization of moisture kinetics of ambient cured carbon/epoxy composites...

www.mdpi.com

"Carbon fiber-reinforced epoxy matrix composites using ambient- and moderate-temperature curing non-autoclave processes have broad applicability in marine, offshore, and naval applications."

 

[D3DPrintedThingz]

Epoxy is not a single thing. There are many different amines and epoxides that together can be used to make epoxy adhesives/resins. Asking about its properties is like asking if a "car" can go 120 mph.

I would also say that the way it is formed into a solid material will have a big effect on whether it cracks in a way that let's significant water penetrate it.

That said, there are certainly some that will protect a coin underwater. Many underwater devices are made of epoxy, including many conductivity and pH probes.


Seawater Effects on Thermally Aged Ambient Cured Carbon/Epoxy Composites: Moisture Kinetics and Uptake Characteristics

Seawater Effects on Thermally Aged Ambient Cured Carbon/Epoxy Composites: Moisture Kinetics and Uptake Characteristics

Carbon fiber-reinforced epoxy matrix composites using ambient- and moderate-temperature curing non-autoclave processes have broad applicability in marine, offshore, and naval applications. This research focuses on the characterization of moisture kinetics of ambient cured carbon/epoxy composites...

www.mdpi.com

"Carbon fiber-reinforced epoxy matrix composites using ambient- and moderate-temperature curing non-autoclave processes have broad applicability in marine, offshore, and naval applications."

my initial thought is that my car can go 120 maybe even 125 but itll be shaking the whole time. all my extra money goes towards fish loooooool .

i will also admit I can get about three words into the title of that article before my eyes go cross eyed. What I am pulling is the two constituents (part A and part B) are the fiber and matrix and a third variable which is the bond that forms when you mix them. Do all fibers contain carbon fiber, or are the carbon fiber more likely to withstand effects from seawater? I see a little picture of some separation, and that leads me down the thought of maybe a thicker epoxy would be harder to penetrate? Kind of like the old Scantron ISTEP tests, where one answer is A then C then A then B , it would have to ping pong through multiple layers of broken fibers and possibly get caught up in fibers that withheld?

I think I am just gonna have to throw some of my creations in a little 5 gallon and watch it for a year or so and see what happens. Thank you for the article, I am going to print it out and bring it home with me today !

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

my initial thought is that my car can go 120 maybe even 125 but itll be shaking the whole time. all my extra money goes towards fish loooooool .

i will also admit I can get about three words into the title of that article before my eyes go cross eyed. What I am pulling is the two constituents (part A and part B) are the fiber and matrix and a third variable which is the bond that forms when you mix them. Do all fibers contain carbon fiber, or are the carbon fiber more likely to withstand effects from seawater? I see a little picture of some separation, and that leads me down the thought of maybe a thicker epoxy would be harder to penetrate? Kind of like the old Scantron ISTEP tests, where one answer is A then C then A then B , it would have to ping pong through multiple layers of broken fibers and possibly get caught up in fibers that withheld?

I think I am just gonna have to throw some of my creations in a little 5 gallon and watch it for a year or so and see what happens. Thank you for the article, I am going to print it out and bring it home with me today !

All epoxies contain two different chemicals, one is an epoxide and one is an amine. They react together to form a polymer that solidifies.

Epoxies may or may not also contain all sorts of other things, such as fibers (for strength), filler (to make it cheaper, maybe stronger), metals to make it conductive, chemicals to accelerate the solidifying chemical reaction, biocides, etc.

A normal epoxide that is well cured will possibly allow a very small amount of moisture to penetrate, but not salts. Cracks that form initially or later are the primary concern.

I think trying it out is a fine plan.

 

[JayM]

1) Maybe, but if water can get in - it can get out.
2) Refer to number 1.
3) I'd imagine you'd need some sort of lab that no DIY'er has access to.
4) You could probably sand, buff, polish and wipe down with isopropyl alcohol, but you'd need to refer to number 3 to be sure.

 

[mfinn]

Back in the day I used to make frag racks using egg crate, neodymium magnets and a polyester casting resin. I experimented with a couple different epoxy's and didn't like the finicky nature of the 2 part mixture. The stuff I had ( I don't remember the brand) needed to be measured very carefully to get the mixture correct to harden. Too little one way and the mixture would not harden and leave a sticky film on the surface, too much and it would harden and crack.
I settled on the casting resin. Just seemed more forgiving.
Even so when I wanted to seal a magnet I would pour a small amount into the mold and let it set up, but not harden, then I would place the magnet in and fill the mold with more resin. This way the first layer still had some adhesion and would bond to the second layer

 

[caddnima]

Back in the day I used to make frag racks using egg crate, neodymium magnets and a polyester casting resin. I experimented with a couple different epoxy's and didn't like the finicky nature of the 2 part mixture. The stuff I had ( I don't remember the brand) needed to be measured very carefully to get the mixture correct to harden. Too little one way and the mixture would not harden and leave a sticky film on the surface, too much and it would harden and crack.
I settled on the casting resin. Just seemed more forgiving.
Even so when I wanted to seal a magnet I would pour a small amount into the mold and let it set up, but not harden, then I would place the magnet in and fill the mold with more resin. This way the first layer still had some adhesion and would bond to the second layer

I still have two of your frag racks still in service.. I bought it during the PSAS/ReefFrontiers times decades ago. And the magnets are still super strong....

 

[mfinn]

I still have two of your frag racks still in service.. I bought it during the PSAS/ReefFrontiers times decades ago. And the magnets are still super strong....

Hey hey, blast from the past.
I still have a couple left too.
The casting resin seems to have held up of the years( many), but the eggcrate gets brittle and will break pretty easy.
This was a fun project back then. I made frag racks and powerhead magnet mounts, before there was such a thing ( except Tunze).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The casting resin seems to have held up of the years( many), but the eggcrate gets brittle and will break pretty easy.

Maybe it doesn't have enough tin stabilizer in it. lol

 

[mfinn]

Maybe it doesn't have enough tin stabilizer in it. lol

I think it also has to do with being in saltwater for nearly 20 years. We see the effects of saltwater breaking down plastics in the ocean. Plus maybe some uv damage.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think it also has to do with being in saltwater for nearly 20 years. We see the effects of saltwater breaking down plastics in the ocean. Plus maybe some uv damage.

Yes, I mostly joking, but degradation reactions of various sorts is what tin stabilizers are supposed to prevent. lol

In any case, other plastic materials last fine. It's very material dependent. I used a varitey of plastics for 20+ years with no issues.

 

[mfinn]

Yes, I mostly joking, but degradation reactions of various sorts is what tin stabilizers are supposed to prevent. lol

In any case, other plastic materials last fine. It's very material dependent. I used a varitey of plastics for 20+ years with no issues.

IDK, you are always to technical, way over my head. lol

When I mentioned the eggcrate getting brittle, it was more of a comparison to the casting resin which held up for that length of time.
Back on reef frontiers we had a engineer guy who provided many answers over a wide field that experimented with the same type of clear casting resin ( that I used) that degraded within 6 months in saltwater. He didn't add and color, but I did.

 

[ecorepraplucia]

This is my first time to reef2reef.

IDK, you are always to technical, way over my head. lol

When I mentioned the eggcrate getting brittle, it was more of a comparison to the casting resin which held up for that length of time.
Back on reef frontiers we had a engineer guy who provided many answers over a wide field that experimented with the same type of clear casting resin ( that I used) that degraded within 6 months in saltwater. He didn't add and color, but I did.

I am interested in any talks about PMMA application in the aquarium.