Elevated values of metals in ICP!? Removing bioblock - Cause and effect!?

[Dimorb]

Hi.

Need som thoughts...

I've been getting elevated values of copper, zink, nickel and cobalt when doing ICP-testing.

I've searched, checked and re-checked all possible sources of error - magnets, pumps, dosing/liquids etc.. cant find anything.

Before aluminium also was elevated but removal of a broken heat pump fixed that and it went down to zero.

The only thing left uncertain is the biomedia/blocks from maxspect. I use 8 bio blocks and 4 denitrification blocks in a 2000 liters system. The blocks were used as a start up package since I dont have live rock in this setup.

This is a coral only system with help from a few fishes (at this moment 6 fishes).

My thoughts and questions.

I suspect the bio blocks contributes to the elevated levels and would like to eliminate that risk by removing them.

Do you consider it safe to remove all at once - to see result faster - or do you recommend removing them one by one with a couple of days in between?

The system is packed with corals on plugs, discs, egg crates etc... but no live rock at all... what would be a normal amount of time to see impact on values if I remove "to much" bio blocks?

Anyone else had/having same kind of problem when using bio blocks?

Best regards

 

[gbroadbridge]

Hi.

Need som thoughts...

I've been getting elevated values of copper, zink, nickel and cobalt when doing ICP-testing.

I've searched, checked and re-checked all possible sources of error - magnets, pumps, dosing/liquids etc.. cant find anything.

Before aluminium also was elevated but removal of a broken heat pump fixed that and it went down to zero.

The only thing left uncertain is the biomedia/blocks from maxspect. I use 8 bio blocks and 4 denitrification blocks in a 2000 liters system. The blocks were used as a start up package since I dont have live rock in this setup.

This is a coral only system with help from a few fishes (at this moment 6 fishes).

My thoughts and questions.

I suspect the bio blocks contributes to the elevated levels and would like to eliminate that risk by removing them.

Do you consider it safe to remove all at once - to see result faster - or do you recommend removing them one by one with a couple of days in between?

The system is packed with corals on plugs, discs, egg crates etc... but no live rock at all... what would be a normal amount of time to see impact on values if I remove "to much" bio blocks?

Anyone else had/having same kind of problem when using bio blocks?

Best regards

What are the levels are you Concerned about?

 

[Dimorb]

Nickel 10,71 ug/l NSW: 0,50 ug/l
Cobalt 3,57 ug/l NSW: 0,10 ug/l
Copper 4,51 ug/l NSW: 0,50 ug/l
Zink 29,16 ug/l NSW 1,99 ug/l

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure those are at problematic levels, but might be coming from a metal part in the water.

Which ICP company?

I've not seen any convincing reports of any type of bioblock correlating with elevated metals such as those you mention.

 

[Dimorb]

I'm not sure those are at problematic levels, but might be coming from a metal part in the water.

Which ICP company?

I've not seen any convincing reports of any type of bioblock correlating with elevated metals such as those you mention.

The test is done by ATI Aquaristik Germany.

I've talked to the people at ATI and got some levels to relate to. They are to high.

But I cant figure out where it comes from.. I've checked every pump, balling solution is the same as always - same solution, no water changes, adding trace elements depending on ICP,

As an addition I should mention this system is overloaded with corals and they - almost every one - looks happy as a fish..

Only concerned it will come to a level where everything comes crashing down.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The test is done by ATI Aquaristik Germany.

I've talked to the people at ATI and got some levels to relate to. They are to high.

Well, they have their opinions and others have theirs. Do not accept every recommendation an ICP company makes as useful or necessary.

Is your tank apparently suffering?

Can you list all supplements that you add?

Do you use tap water?

 

[Dimorb]

Well, they have their opinions and others have theirs. Do not accept every recommendation an ICP company makes as useful or necessary.

I know and understand this but I've also had some experience where the limits have been "spot on".. for example when using lanthanum chloride and the effects it had on the corals. That's why I'm nervous.

I also now that corals will adapt and tolerate higher doses if it happens over a longer period of time.

Is your tank apparently suffering?

It's many tanks connected to one system. Everything, except certain species of acropora, looks fine and healthy - good growth on almost everything.

Can you list all supplements that you add?

I dose balling+ (kH, Ca, Nacl free salt and Mg) to keep up with consumption.

Dose everything else individually based on ICP results. Testing ICP twice / month. Substances that must be regularly dosed up are often: Strontium, Fluorine, Iodine, Molybdenum, Manganese, Iron, Vanadium,

Nutrients are stable at
PO4 0,02-0,035
NO3 8,5-10

Do you use tap water?

No.. RODI unit only.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I know and understand this but I've also had some experience where the limits have been "spot on".. for example when using lanthanum chloride and the effects it had on the corals. That's why I'm nervous.

I also now that corals will adapt and tolerate higher doses if it happens over a longer period of time.


It's many tanks connected to one system. Everything, except certain species of acropora, looks fine and healthy - good growth on almost everything.


I dose balling+ (kH, Ca, Nacl free salt and Mg) to keep up with consumption.

Dose everything else individually based on ICP results. Testing ICP twice / month. Substances that must be regularly dosed up are often: Strontium, Fluorine, Iodine, Molybdenum, Manganese, Iron, Vanadium,

Nutrients are stable at
PO4 0,02-0,035
NO3 8,5-10


No.. RODI unit only.

I think it is unclear whether any bad effects of lanthanum are from dissolved lanthanum, or the particulates.

As to the metals listed, i can only suggest that if you are not dosing them somehow (such as in foods even), then checking for a metal part is a best plan.

I personally would not go the route of trying to lower them with a metal binder, but that is an option. Metazorb, cuprisorb, polyfilter, etc.

 

[Dimorb]

I think it is unclear whether any bad effects of lanthanum are from dissolved lanthanum, or the particulates.

The effects I noticed was, I believe, because of "free" / dissolved lanthanum in the water. I documented corals while I raised the levels in the water.

Had the same effect as does preps you use when you like to get the coral to get rid of zoanthelles to get brighter colors.

Very easy to tell what levels the corals endured.. the bleached out slow and when they reached the level they died withing an hour. If I reintroduced another coral frag from the same mother colony and stopped before I reached the level for that specific coral it stayed very bright in color.

Of course this wasnt a long term project/test (and not very scientific) - only tried this out for 3-4 weeks to see if it would be possible to avoid rowaphos and use lanthanum instead.

As to the metals listed, i can only suggest that if you are not dosing them somehow (such as in foods even), then checking for a metal part is a best plan.

I've checked pumps and magnets.. is there anything else that should be checked regular? When checking I look for rust but cant find anything.

I personally would not go the route of trying to lower them with a metal binder, but that is an option. Metazorb, cuprisorb, polyfilter, etc.

Why not?
I believe that if I dont they will rise even more.

Very interesting to see if the dismantling of the heat pump will have an effect on next ICP.

Nevertheless.. do you think it will create problems if I remove the bio blocks all at once? I have almost no fish in the system..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The effects I noticed was, I believe, because of "free" / dissolved lanthanum in the water. I documented corals while I raised the levels in the water.

Had the same effect as does preps you use when you like to get the coral to get rid of zoanthelles to get brighter colors.

How would you distinguish effects of elevated lanthanum from excessively low phosphate, which likely coincided with it?

The why not to use a binder is that it will also lower metals that are already OK or low. It cannot only pick out the ones you are worried about.

Hose clamps often get into the water in various ways, as might dropped screws, cut wire bits, broken heaters, etc.

 

[Dimorb]

How would you distinguish effects of elevated lanthanum from excessively low phosphate, which likely coincided with it?

I measured phosphate also.. I dont know why - might be the concentration I mixed or something else but PO4 never went to zero. Had to watch kH very closely since that was the parameter most effected when I dosed.

The why not to use a binder is that it will also lower metals that are already OK or low. It cannot only pick out the ones you are worried about.

I see.. so when for example metasorb lists different metals that will bound to the polymer it might not be the only ones. Theres no way they can be sure they have a complete list of what is being absorbed.

Hose clamps often get into the water in various ways, as might dropped screws, cut wire bits, broken heaters, etc.

I've been looking but cant find anything in the water/bottom.

Quick side question.

After some cleaning today I had 1,0224 kg/L salt (S.G. 1,0255) and that's a little low to be me so I added (without thought) salt into the sump... 30 mins later I'm at 1,0228 kg/L (S.G. 1,0260

I assumed big trouble, bad polyp expansion and alot of problems but so far - knock on wood - nothing has happened.

I've always thought corals had a more difficult time with S.G going up rapid than down - isnt that true?

What - do you think - is a "to big swing" in S.G. ?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, metasorb will bind many more metal ions than listed. I expect it will bind nearly all D and F metals (the entire middle of the periodic table).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

ened.

I've always thought corals had a more difficult time with S.G going up rapid than down - isnt that true?

I don't really know the answer to that. I've only seen comments from folks I expect know in relation to fish.

 

[Dimorb]

Yes, metasorb will bind many more metal ions than listed. I expect it will bind nearly all D and F metals (the entire middle of the periodic table).

Ok. Thank you.

I'll try to use metasorb more carefully.

Step 1. lower the values and confirm with ICP
Step 2. raise wanted parameters based on ICP
Step 3. re-test with new ICP.

 

[Dimorb]

I don't really know the answer to that. I've only seen comments from folks I expect know in relation to fish.

I've observed the corals the last couple of days and they look fine.

Thank you for all your help @Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[Dimorb]

Update.

I removed and examine all the streamers today..

I could only find 2 oddities.. 2 pumps - still working - were the little stick inside the rotor had loosened. I'm able to pull it out on the other pumps it's still glued to the bottom of the pump.

The sticks are somewhat miss-colored and have got some bumps but I would not suspect that this is the reason for the elevated values.

What do you think @Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[Dimorb]

Forgot the pictures.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Forgot the pictures.

Is that a metal impeller shaft?

Typically impeller shafts are ceramic in pumps intended for saltwater use.

 

[Dimorb]

Is that a metal impeller shaft?

Typically impeller shafts are ceramic in pumps intended for saltwater use.

Yes it's metal.. Titanium.

I thought it was acid resistant but looked it up and it should be Titanium according to info.

And yes many cheap pumps have ceramic shafts and they break of.. Tunze isnt a cheap pump that's one of the reasons why I chose Tunze - shaft not breaking.

I have many Tunze in this system. Some of them have been going for over 10 years and the one on the picture is one out of two that looked "off" when I inspected them.

I cant believe this is the reason why the metals are elevated. Have to look at the return pumps as well but after that I have checked all the pumps and installed equipment.

 

[Dimorb]

Update.

Got a new ICP back again and the values are even higher than before.

Dont know where to look anymore..

All streamers are ok,
All returnpumps are ok,
No magnets in the aquarium,
RO/DI water all the time,
New filters and resin in /DI,

Two little fishies tells me that the pouches breaking isnt an issue since the polymers would never be able to release the metals back to the aquarium.

So what the... where does the metals come from?

As for now everything looks great, grows great.. but it cant keep rising.