Dosing Ammonia Bicarbonate and Trisodium Phosphate.

[mike_mania]

Can I get a quick link as to what this about?

 

[Formulator]

I was wondering if I should dose more trisodium phosphate from 2.5ml to 5ml and keep ammonia bicarbonate at 5ml still? I am noticing a breakout of possible diatoms

Just an observation - this tank looks brand spanking new… Why are we dosing nitrates and phosphates?

Also the elephant in the room - that pH (if accurate) will not sustain coral.

 

[geko522]

Just an observation - this tank looks brand spanking new… Why are we dosing nitrates and phosphates?

Also the elephant in the room - that pH (if accurate) will not sustain coral.

I was at zero on both nitrate and phosphate. I was told that if I kept it that way I would have big problems. I was researching and came across @Randy Holmes-Farley DIY on how to raise them. So that's where I'm at today. I didn't want to buy brightwells stuff and I also belive I watched a YouTube video from telegram I think his name is, and he was talking about it as well. So if I'm at zero, how else is it going to raise? @Randy Holmes-Farley has been helpful and I'm following his advice and it's working for me... as far as the pH, I don't know if it's right or not. I'm using this Milwaukee pen pH tester and I calibrate it everytime I use it. There's a screw on the back to adjust, it's never off using at cal solution. Once I get to the point I add coral I will probably got with dosing kalkwasser. But for right now, I'm fish only.

 

[Formulator]

I was at zero on both nitrate and phosphate. I was told that if I kept it that way I would have big problems. I was researching and came across @Randy Holmes-Farley DIY on how to raise them. So that's where I'm at today. I didn't want to buy brightwells stuff and I also belive I watched a YouTube video from telegram I think his name is, and he was talking about it as well. So if I'm at zero, how else is it going to raise? @Randy Holmes-Farley has been helpful and I'm following his advice and it's working for me... as far as the pH, I don't know if it's right or not. I'm using this Milwaukee pen pH tester and I calibrate it everytime I use it. There's a screw on the back to adjust, it's never off using at cal solution. Once I get to the point I add coral I will probably got with dosing kalkwasser. But for right now, I'm fish only.

I think your method is perfectly fine and Randy absolutely knows his stuff. I was just questioning the necessity of chemical additives in a brand new tank. Not always, but quite often chasing chemistry with additives in a new tank like this can lead to more harm than good. IMO a better approach at this stage would be to add more livestock and increase feeding to raise your nitrate and phosphate.

Then again, what you are doing is relatively safe. Just more work and stress over something that has a more natural remedy.

 

[geko522]

Can I get a quick link as to what this about?

You can search here for this DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems.

I can't seem to add the link. I also was reading on another's thread about the DIY phosphate and got information from that as randy was in that thread as well.

 

[geko522]

I think your method is perfectly fine and Randy absolutely knows his stuff. I was just questioning the necessity of chemical additives in a brand new tank. Not always, but quite often chasing chemistry with additives in a new tank like this can lead to more harm than good. IMO a better approach at this stage would be to add more livestock and increase feeding to raise your nitrate and phosphate.

Then again, what you are doing is relatively safe. Just more work and stress over something that has a more natural remedy.

Thanks for the info.. I don't mind the work, I didn't get started to be lazy about it and also there's so many avenues of doing things it seems with this hobby. I'll follow Randy's advice. I also did over feeding, it didn't do anything beside waste the fleece roll.

 

[bradreef]

Looks like you are off to a good start. Eventually you want coral consuming the ammonia, phos, cal, and alk. I would get the cal up a little bit closer to 400+ and the ph would be better above 8.

 

[Formulator]

You can search here for this DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems.

I can't seem to add the link. I also was reading on another's thread about the DIY phosphate and got information from that as randy was in that thread as well.

Just FYA the “low nitrate systems” this type of dosing is really intended for are typically systems that are intentionally depleted of nutrients via carbon dosing, not brand new tanks that are understocked. Again, not terribly dangerous, but I think this is worth pointing out before another novice reefer picks it up.

 

[geko522]

Looks like you are off to a good start. Eventually you want coral consuming the ammonia, phos, cal, and alk. I would get the cal up a little bit closer to 400+ and the ph would be better above 8.

Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it!

 

[Formulator]

Thanks for the info.. I don't mind the work, I didn't get started to be lazy about it and also there's so many avenues of doing things it seems with this hobby. I'll follow Randy's advice. I also did over feeding, it didn't do anything beside waste the fleece roll.

I’m surprised Randy would suggest this for your situation. I think it more likely he didn’t realize your tank was new. What livestock do you have?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can I get a quick link as to what this about?

For the ammonium part:

DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

Some reef aquaria have chronic low nitrogen availability. One indicator is very low nitrate. Nitrate dosing is a fine remedy, but it is possible that ammonia dosing may be more beneficial for some organisms since ammonia can be energetically easier to assimilate than is nitrate. For this...

www.reef2reef.com

There are many threads on phosphate dosing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m surprised Randy would suggest this for your situation. I think it more likely he didn’t realize your tank was new. What livestock do you have?

Keeping N and P elevated in a brand new tank is especially important, IMO, to avoid Dino risk.

 

[Formulator]

Keeping N and P elevated in a brand new tank is especially important, IMO, to avoid Dino risk.

Yes, but the livestock should be able to accomplish this… I just think directing newbies straight to chemical additives is asking for trouble based on the countless examples of these people chasing their tails with chemistry due to unforeseen chain reactions. Maybe this one isn’t the best example as it is relatively straightforward, but still.

 

[geko522]

Yes, but the livestock should be able to accomplish this… I just think directing newbies straight to chemical additives is asking for trouble based on the countless examples of these people chasing their tails with chemistry due to unforeseen chain reactions. Maybe this one isn’t the best example as it is relatively straightforward, but still.

You seem to love to put people down and hold them there. You seem to basically say that countless people are stupid. How do you know what's best for everyone? I'm going to put you on ignore... I think I'm done reading your replies... you haven't been helpful to me in any way. You just want to challenge everyone, even Randy who is well known throughout this community, from what I'm gathering. Try to be more helpful and less judgmental. Good bye!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, but the livestock should be able to accomplish this… I just think directing newbies straight to chemical additives is asking for trouble based on the countless examples of these people chasing their tails with chemistry due to unforeseen chain reactions. Maybe this one isn’t the best example as it is relatively straightforward, but still.

Ok, we have different opinions. Dinos are, IMO, a serious risk in new bare rock tanks with low nutrients.

 

[Formulator]

You seem to love to put people down and hold them there. You seem to basically say that countless people are stupid. How do you know what's best for everyone? I'm going to put you on ignore... I think I'm done reading your replies... you haven't been helpful to me in any way. You just want to challenge everyone, even Randy who is well known throughout this community, from what I'm gathering. Try to be more helpful and less judgmental. Good bye!

I’m really not sure how I put anyone down or was judgmental. I simply disagreed with the approach. Last I checked forums were for sharing perspectives. Its good to have different perspectives. Though a lot of people seem to have forgotten that these days, not just here…. Good luck bud. No skin off my back.

 

[Formulator]

You seem to love to put people down and hold them there. You seem to basically say that countless people are stupid. How do you know what's best for everyone? I'm going to put you on ignore... I think I'm done reading your replies... you haven't been helpful to me in any way. You just want to challenge everyone, even Randy who is well known throughout this community, from what I'm gathering. Try to be more helpful and less judgmental. Good bye!

I’m really sorry I offended you. That was not my intention. If you stay around here for a while you will see many new reefers get severely discouraged and even leave the hobby because they resorted to chemical measures without trying softer approaches first, such as adding some fish in your nutrient example. I was only trying to help steer others towards these alternatives first. You had obviously made up your mind and are going about it in a very methodical way that presents no danger. You are doing it right. That doesn’t mean that everyone who catches wind of this method is going to do it right. These forums are an archive and many new reefers may come across the thread and decide to dump ammonium chloride into their tank to raise nitrates, and end up with dead fish due to ammonia poisoning. Or spike nitrates and phosphates to the point of inviting major algae outbreaks. Randy absolutely does know what he is doing, is well respected (including by me) and I acknowledged that.

Anyways, happy reefing.

 

[MeanUrchin]

I was at zero on both nitrate and phosphate. I was told that if I kept it that way I would have big problems. I was researching and came across @Randy Holmes-Farley DIY on how to raise them. So that's where I'm at today. I didn't want to buy brightwells stuff and I also belive I watched a YouTube video from telegram I think his name is, and he was talking about it as well. So if I'm at zero, how else is it going to raise? @Randy Holmes-Farley has been helpful and I'm following his advice and it's working for me... as far as the pH, I don't know if it's right or not. I'm using this Milwaukee pen pH tester and I calibrate it everytime I use it. There's a screw on the back to adjust, it's never off using at cal solution. Once I get to the point I add coral I will probably got with dosing kalkwasser. But for right now, I'm fish only.

People dose nutrients to promote coral health/growth. Dosing nutrient method is more suitable for systems with a coral load that is constantly consuming the nutrients as a food source i.e. dissolved organic compounds. There's a great article written by Salem Clemens of ReefBuilders on the importance of DOC's in a reef tank BTW. Your system being fish only currently, IMO your tank would not benefit from such method, in fact I think it will lead to bigger issues depending on how old your system is. You would be fueling a very nasty "ugly phase" most new tanks go through (nuisance algae growth is promoted by nitrogen cycle and phosphates), possibly encouraging the Dinoflagellates outbreak you're trying to prevent because inexperienced hobbyist on the internet warned you about ultra low nutrients. The Dinoflagellates DNA would have to be introduced to your tank via Corals, live rock, water etc for it to take a foothold in your system, it doesn't appear out of thin air like Cyanobacteria (literally can come from air), it is IMO the dinoflagellates issue, which was not so prevalent in the past, is from the coral's Zooxanthellae being expelled due to the introduction of intense focused lighting of LEDs. There's a great podcast on YT from Reefbum with guest Chris Wood of Captiv8 Marine discussing the dangers of inexperienced hobbyist dosing Ammonia. Coral Euphoria collected data from Tank of the Month from 2015-2021 and found that most people with super successful reef tank's were near 0 measurable Nitrate/Phosphate nutrients in their system. Probably due to heavy coral bioload, constantly consuming it.

I am currently experimenting with dosing ammonium bicarbonate with a pretty sizable coral mass tank 60g. I kept LPS, SPS since day one, and have dealt with zero nutrients since introducing corals. My tank being so small, it is difficult to stock my tank with enough fish (due to aggression) who would normally be supplying the nitrogen cycle to my tank from eating food and producing the waste. To prevent further fish death's from bullying, I'm resorting to dosing nutrients to promote coral growth. It's constantly giving me 0 on my Salifert test kit. But corals are growing.


I'm not an expert or scientist, just my experience and .02 cents from 20 years in the Aquarium hobby. Would love to hear other people's opinions.

 

[Formulator]

People dose nutrients to promote coral health/growth. Dosing nutrient method is more suitable for systems with a coral load that is constantly consuming the nutrients as a food source i.e. dissolved organic compounds. There's a great article written by Salem Clemens of ReefBuilders on the importance of DOC's in a reef tank BTW. Your system being fish only currently, IMO your tank would not benefit from such method, in fact I think it will lead to bigger issues depending on how old your system is. You would be fueling a very nasty "ugly phase" most new tanks go through (nuisance algae growth is promoted by nitrogen cycle and phosphates), possibly encouraging the Dinoflagellates outbreak you're trying to prevent because inexperienced hobbyist on the internet warned you about ultra low nutrients. The Dinoflagellates DNA would have to be introduced to your tank via Corals, live rock, water etc for it to take a foothold in your system, it doesn't appear out of thin air like Cyanobacteria (literally can come from air), it is IMO the dinoflagellates issue, which was not so prevalent in the past, is from the coral's Zooxanthellae being expelled due to the introduction of intense focused lighting of LEDs. There's a great podcast on YT from Reefbum with guest Chris Wood of Captiv8 Marine discussing the dangers of inexperienced hobbyist dosing Ammonia. Coral Euphoria collected data from Tank of the Month from 2015-2021 and found that most people with super successful reef tank's were near 0 measurable Nitrate/Phosphate nutrients in their system. Probably due to heavy coral bioload, constantly consuming it.

I am currently experimenting with dosing ammonium bicarbonate with a pretty sizable coral mass tank 60g. I kept LPS, SPS since day one, and have dealt with zero nutrients since introducing corals. My tank being so small, it is difficult to stock my tank with enough fish (due to aggression) who would normally be supplying the nitrogen cycle to my tank from eating food and producing the waste. To prevent further fish death's from bullying, I'm resorting to dosing nutrients to promote coral growth. It's constantly giving me 0 on my Salifert test kit. But corals are growing.


I'm not an expert or scientist, just my experience and .02 cents from 20 years in the Aquarium hobby. Would love to hear other people's opinions.

This is why I tried to open a line of questioning regarding the OP’s fish load but somehow I really ticked him/her off…

 

[geko522]

Looking at today's parameters do you suggest me to continue to dose 2.5ml trisodium phosphate and 5ml of ammonium bicarbonate? @Randy Holmes-Farley