Disease or aggression killing fish?

[Angus1989]

Tank: Waterbox Peninsula 25 (nano)

Stock: Currently two ocellaris and one flame hawkfish. Previously the above three with three small coral cardinal fish. Corals are leather, zoanthids, morphs and GSP. Two baby bubble nems.

Stable for about eight months post crash. Does aminos every 2nd day or so, reef roids once a fortnight, nems get bits of prawn every fortnight. Parameters are all normal.

Had a royal gramma before the Cardinals but he died due to aggression by clowns and hawkfish. Had dosed flucanazole prior thinking it was a disease. Got the three cardinals and they were good for three months then suddenly one was floating upside down, died and removed from tank. Week later, couldn't find one of the Cardinals and assumed it was hiding. Next day couldn't find either cardinal and both were dead in a small cave of my rock work. Did a 50% water change to minimise parameter changes. They had been beaten up a little on the rear and top fins in day prior.

Now, about four days later one of the clowns is hiding and acting lethargic around the bottom of the tank. Tiny bit of white on scales near the right fin / gill and on left mid body but nothing which screams ich. No signs of aggression on it with bitten tail etc. The other clown is fine and hawkfish is likewise good.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

My plan currently is obviously wait it out. If it dies and others follow I might just wipe the tank and start afresh.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

I'm thinking its the hawkfish. Can we see a tank pic?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Tank: Waterbox Peninsula 25 (nano)

Stock: Currently two ocellaris and one flame hawkfish. Previously the above three with three small coral cardinal fish. Corals are leather, zoanthids, morphs and GSP. Two baby bubble nems.

Stable for about eight months post crash. Does aminos every 2nd day or so, reef roids once a fortnight, nems get bits of prawn every fortnight. Parameters are all normal.

Had a royal gramma before the Cardinals but he died due to aggression by clowns and hawkfish. Had dosed flucanazole prior thinking it was a disease. Got the three cardinals and they were good for three months then suddenly one was floating upside down, died and removed from tank. Week later, couldn't find one of the Cardinals and assumed it was hiding. Next day couldn't find either cardinal and both were dead in a small cave of my rock work. Did a 50% water change to minimise parameter changes. They had been beaten up a little on the rear and top fins in day prior.

Now, about four days later one of the clowns is hiding and acting lethargic around the bottom of the tank. Tiny bit of white on scales near the right fin / gill and on left mid body but nothing which screams ich. No signs of aggression on it with bitten tail etc. The other clown is fine and hawkfish is likewise good.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

My plan currently is obviously wait it out. If it dies and others follow I might just wipe the tank and start afresh.

Agree in aggression and other clown is my first suspect with hawk to follow
Next time you feed , set your cell phone on video mode for 20 minutes and walk away- YOU MUST WALK AWAY as they know you’re there and on their best behavior
Come back and review video as aggressor is generally a bully at feeding trying to get all the food

 

[Dburr1014]

Nothing here screams ich.

Cardinals are notorious for killing off the weakest until left with one. That does not explain why the last died.

I agree with the others, this may be the bigger clown(my suspect) or another fish.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I always “look for a winner” - what fish have intact fins? They are either not a target or are the aggressor.

I suspect the clownfish and the pair bond may have broken down. Flame hawks can also be nasty, but I don’t see one attacking one clown while leaving the other alone.

 

[Angus1989]

I'm thinking its the hawkfish. Can we see a tank pic?

Agree in aggression and other clown is my first suspect with hawk to follow
Next time you feed , set your cell phone on video mode for 20 minutes and walk away- YOU MUST WALK AWAY as they know you’re there and on their best behavior
Come back and review video as aggressor is generally a bully at feeding trying to get all the food

Nothing here screams ich.

Cardinals are notorious for killing off the weakest until left with one. That does not explain why the last died.

I agree with the others, this may be the bigger clown(my suspect) or another fish.

I always “look for a winner” - what fish have intact fins? They are either not a target or are the aggressor.

I suspect the clownfish and the pair bond may have broken down. Flame hawks can also be nasty, but I don’t see one attacking one clown while leaving the other alone.

Firstly, thanks for the quick replies. Secondly, found my clown dead this morning. It was annoying as it seems some of the CUC had a bit of a bite before the end so the fins weren't intact enough to look at aggression signs.

1. If the clown pair bond has broken down, would it systemically have killed off the other fish prior?

Feeding is pretty controlled, I dose a few pellets and then a half dozen or so Artemia per fish. When I had more fish I was a bit more liberal in dose sizes.

2. I don't believe this is the answer but: would any bristleworms ever be bold enough to attack? I only have seen small size ones and a spaghetti worm in my tank of late.

3. Due to the quick nature of the deaths, lack of major signs towards a disease, I also don't think it's ich or something similar. Too fast in my opinion, no signs of flashing or scratching. Don't think it's some whacky parameters either since nothing else seems to be hating life.

Included pictures of tank before lights are on in the morning, dead clown and the remaining clown. I'll set up a camera tonight for a half hour with lights off and see what happens.

 

[Angus1989]

Also, CUC is a stromb, three Astrea, one turbo and one gold ring cowrie. They've all been solid for a while.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Also, CUC is a stromb, three Astrea, one turbo and one gold ring cowrie. They've all been solid for a while.

Yeah, they will devour fish upon a given opportunity upon death.

 

[Angus1989]

Yeah, they will devour fish upon a given opportunity upon death.

Well, now my other clown died overnight. Considering he showed basically no symptoms of lethargy, flashing. Was swimming around last night, eating the food.

My flame hawkfish is still doing fine... I daresay we have our problem child unless it ends up dead tomorrow morning somehow

 

[PharmrJohn]

What are your parameters?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Well, now my other clown died overnight. Considering he showed basically no symptoms of lethargy, flashing. Was swimming around last night, eating the food.

My flame hawkfish is still doing fine... I daresay we have our problem child unless it ends up dead tomorrow morning somehow

Is it a large flame hawk, relative to the clownfish? Those clowns seem pretty good sized.

 

[Angus1989]

What are your parameters?

Stable, had a bit of a break in recording because my file for some reason became read only so couldn't update it. Not testing for nitrates etc regularly as they've not been present for a long time when I've gotten in store tests done. Keep in mind it's a nano so I'll have large fluctuations.

Is it a large flame hawk, relative to the clownfish? Those clowns seem pretty good sized.

Introduced after the clowns and had never been aggressive overtly towards them. My royal gramma, yes but not them. Best photo from this morning. I've had it since July last year.

 

[PharmrJohn]

Good enough. I'm not arguing aggression here, I'm just a little concerned that, with all the negative happenings in your tank, that they have varied a bit. BTW, Dude, I'm sorry you're dealing with this. It just flat out sucks.

 

[Angus1989]

Good enough. I'm not arguing aggression here, I'm just a little concerned that, with all the negative happenings in your tank, that they have varied a bit. BTW, Dude, I'm sorry you're dealing with this. It just flat out sucks.

Nah, it's all good man. I'm keen for as much input as possible to ID it. I thought it might have been something in the water as well but the more it looks like a systematic serial killing the less inclined to that idea I am

Attached screenshots since I forgot to in the prior post.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Stable, had a bit of a break in recording because my file for some reason became read only so couldn't update it. Not testing for nitrates etc regularly as they've not been present for a long time when I've gotten in store tests done. Keep in mind it's a nano so I'll have large fluctuations.


Introduced after the clowns and had never been aggressive overtly towards them. My royal gramma, yes but not them. Best photo from this morning. I've had it since July last year.

Ah flame hawk - The devils child. Very smart, yet aggressive. Will go after shrimp, smaller fish and steal all the food it can

 

[Angus1989]

Ah flame hawk - The devils child. Very smart, yet aggressive. Will go after shrimp, smaller fish and steal all the food it can

Well... Went for a walk with the wife this morning and he decided after his serial killings he would commit suicide. Jumped out a small gap in the tank lid

Positive is I can now re-stock it with something else. I think I'll give it a few months to settle whatever is going on and then go again.

I don't know what has gone on this past fortnight. Maybe the apocalypse is coming...

 

[vetteguy53081]

Well... Went for a walk with the wife this morning and he decided after his serial killings he would commit suicide. Jumped out a small gap in the tank lid

Positive is I can now re-stock it with something else. I think I'll give it a few months to settle whatever is going on and then go again.

I don't know what has gone on this past fortnight. Maybe the apocalypse is coming...

I see brook and bacterial remnants on the clown and cant see anything on hawk nor can tell on a fish out of water or post-death. Hawk is indeed a killer and a fish not to trust. Personally and recommended, Place any fish remaining in a separate quarantine tank and quarantine using coppersafe at 2.25 for a full 30 days and follow after 30 days with water change and treatment using Prazi pro for a 18 day period applying initial dose at 85% of recommended and then water change and one more application assuring the fish are going into display tank clean . Display will need to get a major water change and then NO fish for a period of at least 60 days

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Well... Went for a walk with the wife this morning and he decided after his serial killings he would commit suicide. Jumped out a small gap in the tank lid

Positive is I can now re-stock it with something else. I think I'll give it a few months to settle whatever is going on and then go again.

I don't know what has gone on this past fortnight. Maybe the apocalypse is coming...

I agree, keep the tank fishless for 45+ days, and then restock with quarantined fish, just in case this all was not aggression

 

[Angus1989]

I see brook and bacterial remnants on the clown and cant see anything on hawk nor can tell on a fish out of water or post-death. Hawk is indeed a killer and a fish not to trust. Personally and recommended, Place any fish remaining in a separate quarantine tank and quarantine using coppersafe at 2.25 for a full 30 days and follow after 30 days with water change and treatment using Prazi pro for a 18 day period applying initial dose at 85% of recommended and then water change and one more application assuring the fish are going into display tank clean . Display will need to get a major water change and then NO fish for a period of at least 60 days

Funnily enough did some digging on it possibly being brook so glad to have that corroborated.

I agree, keep the tank fishless for 45+ days, and then restock with quarantined fish, just in case this all was not aggression

Assuming as per the above comment, since tank is now empty of fish, I won't need to dose anything, just several major water changes and keep it fishless for 45-60+ days to eradicate brook remnants in the system?

Also, likely that brook was introduced via the latest fish additions three months or so ago or just something lurking for a long time?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Funnily enough did some digging on it possibly being brook so glad to have that corroborated.


Assuming as per the above comment, since tank is now empty of fish, I won't need to dose anything, just several major water changes and keep it fishless for 45-60+ days to eradicate brook remnants in the system?

Also, likely that brook was introduced via the latest fish additions three months or so ago or just something lurking for a long time?

Brook often introduced in addition to failing water quality. Yes, 45-60 days of no fish will often end the cycle of brook. Ruby rally pro which is reef safe often effective with addressing brook