Did KZ crash my 650 Gallon SPS reef?

[dansCorals]

Hi everyone!

I was hoping someone can help me with a question regarding an issue I had with my 650 gallon reef. The reef recently crashed (on Christmas) when every coral in the aquarium seemed to turn black/brown and die within 48 hours. (13 years worth of SPS growth :-( ). I captured a water sample and sent it in for ICP analysis and the only thing that stood out which was strange was a detectable level of copper and elevated barium and Zinc in the display tank. (ICP Analysis a week before the crash: https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/icp-oes/197429 and ICP Report from the crashed Tank water: https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/icp-oes/211531). Since then, I sent in a sample of my freshly mixed salt water (as a control) for ICP analysis, as well as multiple samples where I “spiked” a sample of my freshly mixed salt water with each different additive I used in my aquarium (Food, Aminos, etc). One result I received was concerning, specifically for an ICP test which had a combination of KZ Flatworm stop with KZ Coral Boost. A 1 ML dose of these products (in 1 cup of new saltwater) in my sample returned a copper lever over 2000 ug/L.

Question: Are KZ Flatworm Stop and KZ Coral Booster known to contain high levels of copper? These products were positioned as being safe for reef aquariums so I am wondering if the recent bottles I received could have been bad.

 

[Troylee]

Anything is possible but I’d say it’s highly doubtful! Plenty of top notch sps keepers use kz flatworm stop and get amazing results… with a tank that old I’d look into equipment leaching copper such as old frayed wires on heaters or pumps etc.

 

[dansCorals]

Thought about that, so I went through a few water changes on the display tank to get the ICP levels back to normal...then I waited..and ran the ICP again last week. No elevated copper. So I figure it must have been something acute since the copper level changes in a week between ICP tests. After the crash, I sent in 9 different ICP tests with different additives "spiked" and the KZ was the only test that came back with copper elevated. If that wasnt the cause.. then I am at my wits end to identify the cause. I made a lot of mistakes over the last 25 years of reefkeeping, but nothing that would cause all coral (but no fish, snails, crabs, or urchins) to die within 48 hours.

 

[X-37B]

Thought about that, so I went through a few water changes on the display tank to get the ICP levels back to normal...then I waited..and ran the ICP again last week. No elevated copper. So I figure it must have been something acute since the copper level changes in a week between ICP tests. After the crash, I sent in 9 different ICP tests with different additives "spiked" and the KZ was the only test that came back with copper elevated. If that wasnt the cause.. then I am at my wits end to identify the cause. I made a lot of mistakes over the last 25 years of reefkeeping, but nothing that would cause all coral (but no fish, snails, crabs, or urchins) to die within 48 hours.

Tough situation! Hate to see this happen to anyone.
I would sure like to know as I have dosed kz flatworm stop for 6 months straight then on and off with no issues.
I would guess a bad bottle.
Was it the stop or the boost or both?

 

[JGT]

Crazy idea here.. but since it was Christmas… any chance you had people over and someone put something into the tank unbeknownst to you?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

1 mL in a cup is a massive overdose of these products, and an appropriately small amount of something can look like a toxic dose when tested that way.

 

[dansCorals]

Crazy idea here.. but since it was Christmas… any chance you had people over and someone put something into the tank unbeknownst to you?

I didnt host this year but it also crossed my mind.. my wife and kids were a bit offended when I asked them if they were involved..

 

[dansCorals]

Tough situation! Hate to see this happen to anyone.
I would sure like to know as I have dosed kz flatworm stop for 6 months straight then on and off with no issues.
I would guess a bad bottle.
Was it the stop or the boost or both?

It was both together. Next step is to run ICP on them separately..as well as on new bottles to see if it could be a bad batch...or if KZ just has certain amounts of copper in the products.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Too much applied to tank and likely a contributor

 

[dansCorals]

1 mL in a cup is a massive overdose of these products, and an appropriately small amount of something can look like a toxic dose when tested that way.

Agreed. I just never thought these products had any copper in them. So I was primarily hunting to see if the food or additives had any existence of copper. Now I will have to take it a step further to measure the amount of copper in the KZ product based on the recommended dose. Maybe its all a red herring and it was something else.. but from the display tank ICP test.. I can only think copper (after reading reef2reef posts on high barium levels, I ruled that out). Both only measurable in the ICP test with the KZ. Who knows!

 

[cilyjr]

I've been using flatworm stop for a while now. I dose about 1 to 1.5 the label. I'll do a copper test when I get home.

 

[cjtabares]

Wouldn’t 9 ug/l, be .009 ppm. Is that too high for copper? Even on the test it is listed on the higher side of green, and aren’t inverts sensitive to copper too. If it is too high why would they not have died too?

 

[JGT]

I read an older post where someone supposedly had an ICP test done on it and it is largely Iodine and water.
People have reported high iodine levels as a result but nothing about Cu.

KZ Flatworm Stop. Any reason not to use it?

I see a lot of people out there claiming that KZ Flatworm Stop helps promote acropora health. I don't have any flatworms (that I know of), but am considering starting it just for the claimed acro health benefits. Any reason not to?

www.reef2reef.com

 

[dansCorals]

Wouldn’t 9 ug/l, be .009 ppm. Is that too high for copper? Even on the test it is listed on the higher side of green, and aren’t inverts sensitive to copper too. If it is too high why would they not have died too?

Thats why I am puzzled as well. When I look at the before/after ICP of the display tank.. the only things that stand out are the Copper, Barium, and slightly elevated Zinc.

I went looking to see if a mouse fell into the sump, stray voltage, disintegrated component, etc. Didnt find any issues. Its a huge mystery...but I dont want to restart without identifying the cause. I even did a DNA/biome analysis..but that didnt turn up anything. (I thought it could have been vibrio or something). For this severe of a crash, I would think the problem would be apparent..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wouldn’t 9 ug/l, be .009 ppm. Is that too high for copper? Even on the test it is listed on the higher side of green, and aren’t inverts sensitive to copper too. If it is too high why would they not have died too?

My tank was 11-13 ppm copper when I measured it myself long ago, and I did not perceive there to be an issue.

Notably, however, concentration is only a part of whether a trace element is toxic. The chemical form can matter a huge amount, and icp cannot give that sort of info.

 

[ohana888]

can you send ICP samples of the KZ products?

 

[JGT]

can you send ICP samples of the KZ products?

See post #13, supposedly yes and largely iodine and water.

 

[cilyjr]

I'm testing .07 to .09 on a hanna checker. Which is up from the last time I tested copper on my display tank about a year ago at .02.

I have no idea if that accounts for anything but I figured I'd let you know.
I have no coral deaths. Everyone is happy.

 

[ohana888]

See post #13, supposedly yes and largely iodine and water.

i meant - to send samples from the KZ bottles OP used.

 

[cjtabares]

Thats why I am puzzled as well. When I look at the before/after ICP of the display tank.. the only things that stand out are the Copper, Barium, and slightly elevated Zinc.

I went looking to see if a mouse fell into the sump, stray voltage, disintegrated component, etc. Didnt find any issues. Its a huge mystery...but I dont want to restart without identifying the cause. I even did a DNA/biome analysis..but that didnt turn up anything. (I thought it could have been vibrio or something). For this severe of a crash, I would think the problem would be apparent..

Yeah, has to be frustrating not know, and Randy said it has more to do then just contrition for copper to be toxic. So who knows, it could be it since there did seem to be a change.

My tank was 11-13 ppm copper when I measured it myself long ago, and I did not perceive there to be an issue.

Notably, however, concentration is only a part of whether a trace element is toxic. The chemical form can matter a huge amount, and icp cannot give that sort of info.

Ok, that makes sense. Thanks.