cycling with fish

[laughing tang]

I'll preface this with, yes we have learned now that getting fish without a cycled system set up was a bad idea. Lesson learned and it won't be repeated. However, we are still in the pickle of trying to cycle a system with a boxfish.

The 2" juvenile boxfish was purchased from the LFS with ich June 6 and put in hyposalinity. He is in a 50 gallon tank with a 30 gallon sump. I made the mistake of dosing Erase CL at 20 ml 2x a day to keep ammonia at bay. I am aware of the discussions regarding ammonia binders not working. I used a Hanna salicylate ammonia tester. I am also aware of the recent discussion that although Brightwell recommends the use of a salicylate tester that the consensus is that the reading will not be accurate. About 2 weeks ago the boxfish started headshaking and twitching. First mildly, then more when my beau decided that the 5 gallon water changes I was doing daily were overkill. One day he did 2.5 g, the next day 1 g (this was before the 30 gallon sump was installed, the system was about 60g at that point). The next day the boxfish was darting, twitching dashing, he jumped out of the tank and hit the egg crate. Not knowing what to do we dosed prazipro suspecting flukes (although at 1.009 for 40d that would be a long shot). This prompted even more mad dashing about 5 hrs into the prazipro. Not being able to dose Erase CL in concert with prazipro brought ammonia on Hanna to 0.66. on day 2 of prazipro. We could not do a water change and were struggling to get advice. On day 3 of prazipro we did water changes to bring ammonia down. Still the boxfish kept twitching although less so, but he was hiding and less exuberant about food. We had an aquatic vet come out who told us it was likely caused by ammonia and Erase CL (skin scrape was negative), to stop Erase CL and do water changes to control ammonia. We were doing 30 gallon water changes twice a day for days and it barely controlled the ammonia (in the 0.20 range). We started dosing Microbacter Clean to get bacteria going. The fish was still twitching. We installed a 30 gallon sump with a massive skimmer hoping that would help and at the same time I spoke with the owner of the LFS (who is very knowledgeable), who mentioned ammonia burn and suggested we cycle with Turbostart 900. On Sat we thus dose 100 ml turbo start and on Sunday another 100. We also dosed 30ml StressGuard 2x daily and started Kanaplex. Within 2 days he is no longer twitching, is his usual self and eating gregariously.

But, on Sunday ammonia was 0.34 and we did a 20 gallon water change. Ammonia was 0.26 after that and 0.27 yesterday morning. I dosed another 200 ml Turbostart (instructions say you can dose 5x the amount which would be 464 for 80 gallons). Skimmer and filters are off as per instructions. However by last night ammonia was 0.30 again and we did a 15 gallon water change. We keep the PH 7.70 -7.99 to avoid ammonia toxicity but still with 7.78 pH and 78 F that lands you close 0.01 ppm NH3.

Questions: are we pulling out live bacteria when we do water changes? Should 0.30 ppm TAN and NH3 0.01 concern us. What suggestions might you have for us to keep the fish out of trouble but cycle the tank. Nitrite is going up, around 180 ppb this morning. We feed the fish 3x a day and siphon out the feces and left over food (if any) after feeding.

 

[Uncle99]

I'll preface this with, yes we have learned now that getting fish without a cycled system set up was a bad idea. Lesson learned and it won't be repeated. However, we are still in the pickle of trying to cycle a systems with a boxfish.

The boxfish was purchased from the LFS with ich June 6 and put in hyposalinity. He is in a 50 gallon tank with a 30 gallon sump. I made the mistake of dosing Erase CL at 20 ml 2x a day to keep ammonia at bay. I am aware of the discussions regarding ammonia binders not working. I used a Hanna salicylate ammonia tester. I am also aware of the recent discussion that although Brightwell recommends the use of a salicylate tester that the consensus is that the reading will not be accurate. About 2 weeks ago the boxfish started headshaking and twitching. First mildly, then more when my beau decided that the 5 gallon water changes I was doing daily were overkill. One day he did 2.5 g, the next day 1 g (this was before the 30 gallon sump was installed, the system was about 60g at that point). The next day the boxfish was darting, twitching dashing, he jumped out of the tank and hit the egg crate. Not knowing what to do we dosed prazipro suspecting flukes (although at 1.009 that would be a long shot). This prompted even more mad dashing about 5 hrs into the prazipro. Not being able to dose Erase CL in concert with prazipro brought ammonia on Hanna to 0.66. on day 2 of prazipro. We could not do a water change and were struggling to get advice. On day 3 of prazipro we did water changes to bring ammonia down. Still the boxfish kept twitching although less so, but he was hiding and less exuberant about food. We had an aquatic vet come out who told us it was likely caused by ammonia and Erase CL, to stop Erase CL and do water changes to control ammonia. We were doing 30 gallon water changes twice a day and it barely controlled the ammonia (in the 0.20 range). We started dosing Microbacter Clean to get bacteria going. The fish was still twitching. We installed a 30 gallon sump with a massive skimmer hoping that would help and at the same time I spoke with the owner of the FLS (who is very knowledgeable), who mentioned ammonia burn and suggested we cycle with Turbostart 900. On Sat we thus dose 100 ml turbo start and on Sunday another 100. We also dosed 30ml StressGuard 2x daily. Within 2 days he is no longer twitching. Sadly on Monday ammonia was 0.34 and we did a 20 gallon water change. Ammonia was 0.26 after that and 0.27 yesterday morning. I dosed another 200 ml Turbostart (instructions say you can dose 5x the amount which would be 464 for 80 gallons). Skimmer and filters are off as per instructions. However by last night ammonia was 0.30 again. We keep the PH 7.70 -7.99 to avoid ammonia toxicity but still with 0.78 that lands you over 0.01 ppm NH3.

Questions: are we pulling out live bacteria when we do water changes? Should 0.30 ppm TAN and NH3 0.01 concern us. What suggestions might you have for us to keep the fish out of trouble but cycle the tank. Nitrite is going up, around 180 ppb this morning.

Boxfish in 50g going to be huge challenge, needs 180+ this fish heavy on the contribution will need a real mature rock and heavy mechanical.

Normal Cycle should be easy. Rock, saltwater,sand,heat,flow and bottle bacteria, wait 5 days and your cycled for first fish.

But with this guy, you need an advanced filtration system and large water changes for the long term.

I can’t count the changes you describe, but I doubt that’s going to help much.

If ammonia is high, water change it down.

 

[laughing tang]

Boxfish in 50g going to be huge challenge, needs 180+ this fish heavy on the contribution will need a real mature rock and heavy mechanical.

Normal Cycle should be easy. Rock, saltwater,sand,heat,flow and bottle bacteria, wait 5 days and your cycled for first fish.

But with this guy, you need an advanced filtration system and large water changes for the long term.

Thanks. The 50 gallon is just his QT, and it is 80 gallons total with a 30 gallon sump. I will be working in the next 2 days to set up his marco rock aquascape. He is a 2" juvenile and will be going into a 100 gallon tank once we get his salinity up; I presume that is plenty for a fish that size (he will be alone) until he gets bigger. We are going to start cycling that 100 gallon tank in the next few days. For now, I am stuck with the questions I posed for the short term. We dosed Turbo start Sun/Mon/yesterday, so technically we cannot start the skimmer and filtration until Saturday.

 

[Uncle99]

Thanks. The 50 gallon is just his QT, and it is 80 gallons total with a 30 gallon sump. I will be working in the next 2 days to set up his marco rock aquascape. He is a 2" juvenile and will be going into a 100 gallon tank once we get his salinity up; I presume that is plenty for a fish that size (he will be alone) until he gets bigger. We are going to start cycling that 100 gallon tank in the next few days. For now, I am stuck with the questions I posed for the short term. We dosed Turbo start Sun/Mon/yesterday, so technically we cannot start the skimmer and filtration until Saturday.

Your not pulling out much bacteria in a water change, it populates hard surfaces and sand.

You can control ammonia easy through water changes.

Some testing kits go no lower than .25ppm no matter how long you’ve been running, so if your waiting to zero, not going to happen.

 

[PharmrJohn]

To answer your question about bacteria exiting stage left with water changes, it doesn't have any real effect.

 

[laughing tang]

Your not pulling out much bacteria in a water change, it populates hard surfaces and sand.

You can control ammonia easy through water changes.

Some testing kits go no lower than .25ppm no matter how long you’ve been running, so if your waiting to zero, not going to happen.

Thank you. I guess given that the turbostarter instructions have you stop the skimmer for 5 days I presumed that it stays in the water column during that time, otherwise why would the skimmer present a problem? I know very little about this so happy to be educated.

The hanna ammonia tester definitely will log from 0.00 as I've had low readings many times while testing my clowfish larvae/fry tanks 3x a day for months on end in the last 6 months ... but I still worry that anything close and over 0.30 TAN brings the beginnings for NH3 toxicity with it, if only an irritant. The water changes definitely bring the ammonia down, a 20% water change does represent a 20% TAN reduction.

Basically we are just trying to hold on until Sat when we can turn the skimmer on.

 

[Uncle99]

Thank you. I guess given that the turbostarter instructions have you stop the skimmer for 5 days I presumed that it stays in the water column during that time, otherwise why would the skimmer present a problem? I know very little about this so happy to be educated.

The hanna ammonia tester definitely will log from 0.00 as I've had low readings many times while testing my clowfish larvae/fry tanks 3x a day for months on end in the last 6 months ... but I still worry that anything close and over 0.30 TAN brings the beginnings for NH3 toxicity with it, if only an irritant. The water changes definitely bring the ammonia down, a 20% water change does represent a 20% TAN reduction.

Basically we are just trying to hold on until Sat when we can turn the skimmer on.

Yup, Hanna for ammonia great test.

 

[BiggestE22]

No need to “cycle” with fish. There are all types of store bought options as well as other types biological options.

 

[laughing tang]

No need to “cycle” with fish. There are all types of store bought options as well as other types biological options.

I do not understand this. If you put a fish in fresh, newly mixed saltwater the tank needs to cycle.

Just tested TAN on Hanna again and it is 0.33 ppm. Really not sure what to do at this point.

 

[Spare time]

If there is ammonia, fritz or biospira cycling bacteria is the solution. Just add more. The antibiotic may not be helping though and I am not sure why you are using it.

 

[laughing tang]

If there is ammonia, fritz or biospira cycling bacteria is the solution

Please read original post.

 

[Spare time]

Please read original post.

I edited my post. I think you need more and to not do antibiotics. This is just to control the situation. I am wondering if the kanaplex is killing the cycling bacteria, thus needing you to add more bacteria.

 

[Uncle99]

I do not understand this. If you put a fish in fresh, newly mixed saltwater the tank needs to cycle.

Just tested TAN on Hanna again and it is 0.33 ppm. Really not sure what to do at this point.

I’d just turn the skimmer on.
It will pull DOC and oxygenate waters.
I only turn off my skimmer off for a few hours with bacteria adds, not 5 days.

 

[laughing tang]

If there is ammonia, fritz or biospira cycling bacteria is the solution. Just add more. The antibiotic may not be helping though and I am not sure why you are using it.

Kanaplex is in the food only, not the water. Ammonia burn can cause bacterial infections. I doubt the little bit of kanaplex that is in food would prevent the 464 ml of turbostarter I've dosed from growing?

I do not believe I can dose more turbostarter, I have dosed 464 ml which the total dose Fritz allows for 80 gallons (that is 5x the normal dose). Each dose also means you need to delay starting your skimmer and filtration by 5 days.

 

[Spare time]

Kanaplex is in the food only, not the water. Ammonia burn can cause bacterial infections. I doubt the little bit of kanaplex that is in food would prevent the 464 ml of turbostarter I've dosed from growing?

I do not believe I can dose more turbostarter, I have dosed 464 ml which the total dose Fritz allows for 80 gallons (that is 5x the normal dose). Each dose also means you need to delay starting your skimmer and filtration by 5 days.

You can dose more bacteria, it won't harm anything. If you have more on hand, you can just add the rest then turn on the skimmer in a few days. As for kanaplex in the food, it is bound to wash off a bit and into the water. Using antibiotics is actively harmful if there is not an infection.

 

[Spare time]

Also keep in mind the hanna checker has an error of ±0.05 ppm.

 

[laughing tang]

Also keep in mind the hanna checker has an error of ±0.05 ppm.

Yes, I am aware but it is a good point. Still though when I see a trend going up it bothers me; also it means that 0.33 could be anywhere from 0.28 to 0.38, with the latter putting the NH3 further up to 0.0134. Honestly I do not know if others consider that an issue; I read that NH3 is an irritant at 0.01ppm. And I think I read something by @Randy Holmes-Farley that a portion of NH4 can also be toxic. The seachem badge is yellow but that seems to set the bar very low.

It is still not clear to me from anything I've read whether you can do water changes after dosing live bacteria. I did reach out to Fritz but that might take awhile to hear back. If we presume a water change pulls out live bacteria we could redose to replenish but again it keeps resetting the 5d skimmer/filtration clock which is also not doing us any favors.

It still baffles me that such a fairly small fish (2") could fowl 80 gallons? We do not overfeed.

On the Kanaplex, given that he was very ill and is now back to normal with the only changes being StressGuard and Kanaplex, I am hesitant to not finish the course; it's only 4 more days. Honestly, if you'd read my desperate pleas in the fish disease forum, we were terrified we would lose him because he was so unwell. I am so happy that he is back to his personable self with those two additions that I'm worried if I remove the Kanaplex the whole issue will start again ... It's not that I'm not listening to your advice, I am just very worried about him.

 

[ScottJ]

Why not you run out to your LFS and buy 20 or 30 pounds of wet, cycled rock? Most LFS's I've been in sell it. No, it's not Ocean rock, BUT it should be loaded with bacteria. That will take care of your ammonia problem very quickly.

 

[laughing tang]

Why not you run out to your LFS and buy 20 or 30 pounds of wet, cycled rock? Most LFS's I've been in sell it. No, it's not Ocean rock, BUT it should be loaded with bacteria. That will take care of your ammonia problem very quickly.

I haven't seen them carry it, but also their systems have ich, it's where we got the fish, with ich.

Last ammonia test on hanna was 0.31 (Master Hanna) 2 hours after the last year of 0.33 (Hanna egg). Api is 0-25 with not a spec of green. Salifert is white as snow, zero. I am super confused at this point.

 

[Spare time]

I haven't seen them carry it, but also their systems have ich, it's where we got the fish, with ich.

Last ammonia test on hanna was 0.31 (Master Hanna) 2 hours after the last year of 0.33 (Hanna egg). Api is 0-25 with not a spec of green. Salifert is white as snow, zero. I am super confused at this point.

It is probably zero then