Could copper be killing my fish?

[Twosixpax]

Thanks, the videos help rule out some things....notably, the fish are swimming well and not breathing fast so that rules out Brooklynella or Velvet. No spots, so that rules out ich. that just leaves flukes are a possible disease entity. Trouble is, the possible contamination of the water adds another layer to all this.

If you want to pursue the fluke angle, you should get the copper issue under control and then you can dose the tank with prazipro - no UV or carbon, with good aeration. Dose once, then wait 8 days, change 25% of the water and dose a second time.

Jay

Thanks Jay - really appreciate it. Planning a very large water change today and have carbon and cuprisorb running.

I did notice this morning some largish spots on the tail of the remaining Sleeper Goby. Not sure if flukes would display on fins like this? otherwise the fish looks healthy. Don't see these on any other fish at this point.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay - really appreciate it. Planning a very large water change today and have carbon and cuprisorb running.

I did notice this morning some largish spots on the tail of the remaining Sleeper Goby. Not sure if flukes would display on fins like this? otherwise the fish looks healthy. Don't see these on any other fish at this point.

That doesn't look like flukes to me. Also, flukes tend to locate on the body, the fins don't have much "food" in terms of blood flow. this looks like some minor damage.

Jay

 

[Twosixpax]

I'm having to remind myself that sometimes this pursuit is more art than science. A Triton ICP test sent last week shows no detectable copper (File attached), while the Hanna checker was showing c.0.25ppm Cu at about the same time. I've since done 2x 100+ G water changes and the Hanna checker is showing 0,1 ppm Cu or less.

There have been no further fish losses and all but some of the LPS corals seem to be doing OK (a large crop of Duncans I used to seed the tank has been closed for a couple of weeks). Fish behavior is normal other than the Royal Grammas, which continue to flash against some algae-covered rock.

With CU between 0 and 0.1ppm (depending on whether Hanna or Triton are most accurate) I was thinking of dosing Prazipro as a precaution for flukes, unless there are strong downsides (the only things testing high on the ICP test were Iron and Silicon - assuming it's a RODI issue). With a Copperband and a juvenile Regal Angelfish in there I'm guessing if it was Ich it would have claimed them and not just the seemingly robust Starry Blenny and Sleeper Goby, and other than the marks on the Gogy's tail there has been no evidence of spots, cloudy eyes etc. In fact, the only common element between the fishe that died or are acting strangely is flashing against the sand or rock. After PraziPro I would send a DNA test before adding any other fish (all fish other than the Blenny from Diver's Den have come from Dr Reef or Marine Collectors) - does this sound like a reasonable approach?

 

[gbroadbridge]

I'm having to remind myself that sometimes this pursuit is more art than science. A Triton ICP test sent last week shows no detectable copper (File attached), while the Hanna checker was showing c.0.25ppm Cu at about the same time. I've since done 2x 100+ G water changes and the Hanna checker is showing 0,1 ppm Cu or less.

There have been no further fish losses and all but some of the LPS corals seem to be doing OK (a large crop of Duncans I used to seed the tank has been closed for a couple of weeks). Fish behavior is normal other than the Royal Grammas, which continue to flash against some algae-covered rock.

With CU between 0 and 0.1ppm (depending on whether Hanna or Triton are most accurate) I was thinking of dosing Prazipro as a precaution for flukes, unless there are strong downsides (the only things testing high on the ICP test were Iron and Silicon - assuming it's a RODI issue). With a Copperband and a juvenile Regal Angelfish in there I'm guessing if it was Ich it would have claimed them and not just the seemingly robust Starry Blenny and Sleeper Goby, and other than the marks on the Gogy's tail there has been no evidence of spots, cloudy eyes etc. In fact, the only common element between the fishe that died or are acting strangely is flashing against the sand or rock. After PraziPro I would send a DNA test before adding any other fish (all fish other than the Blenny from Diver's Den have come from Dr Reef or Marine Collectors) - does this sound like a reasonable approach?

I missed this thread the first time around.

The Hanna Copper checker is extremely unreliable at levels under 1.0ppm.

You could test any running reef tank and see results anywhere from 0.1 to 0.5ppm with a perfectly executed test and new reagents. I no longer use that kit unless dosiing something like copperpower where the level is above 1.0ppm.
Above that level the Hanna checker is fine.

You would have found that using a different test (I use Seachem), the result would have been zero.
Which of course the ICP confirmed.

So the copper is a red herring.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I'm having to remind myself that sometimes this pursuit is more art than science. A Triton ICP test sent last week shows no detectable copper (File attached), while the Hanna checker was showing c.0.25ppm Cu at about the same time. I've since done 2x 100+ G water changes and the Hanna checker is showing 0,1 ppm Cu or less.

There have been no further fish losses and all but some of the LPS corals seem to be doing OK (a large crop of Duncans I used to seed the tank has been closed for a couple of weeks). Fish behavior is normal other than the Royal Grammas, which continue to flash against some algae-covered rock.

With CU between 0 and 0.1ppm (depending on whether Hanna or Triton are most accurate) I was thinking of dosing Prazipro as a precaution for flukes, unless there are strong downsides (the only things testing high on the ICP test were Iron and Silicon - assuming it's a RODI issue). With a Copperband and a juvenile Regal Angelfish in there I'm guessing if it was Ich it would have claimed them and not just the seemingly robust Starry Blenny and Sleeper Goby, and other than the marks on the Gogy's tail there has been no evidence of spots, cloudy eyes etc. In fact, the only common element between the fishe that died or are acting strangely is flashing against the sand or rock. After PraziPro I would send a DNA test before adding any other fish (all fish other than the Blenny from Diver's Den have come from Dr Reef or Marine Collectors) - does this sound like a reasonable approach?

If false readings or mixed with other meds, can reduce its bonders making it toxic. Its Hanna brand we find to be reliable source for copper test, but if not done correctly can produce a false level. Copperband and regal can tolerate 2.0-2.25 in many cases.
On the goby, I see fin ray issue or even lympho opposed to reaction to copper.

 

[Twosixpax]

If false readings or mixed with other meds, can reduce its bonders making it toxic. Its Hanna brand we find to be reliable source for copper test, but if not done correctly can produce a false level. Copperband and regal can tolerate 2.0-2.25 in many cases.
On the goby, I see fin ray issue or even lympho opposed to reaction to copper.

Thanks. The Copperband did show brief signs of Lympho a short while after being added to the tank, so that is likely what it is. It is also gone from the surviving sleeper goby now. As that's not usually fatal I also assume it didn't kill the two fish I lost, or cause the anenomes and corals to die or close for extended periods, so there's still an open question there. I also don't think it causes fish to scratch (but could be wrong) so there still appears to be something affecting Grammas in the tank. I guess the DNA test is the right next step. I'm assuming the Triton test is the most accurate (although the Hanna checker is a pretty simple procedure so I doubt I got it wrong *every* time, and also calibrated the checker beforehand).

One other thing in support of there being zero copper is that there has been Cuprisorb in the sump for a couple of weeks without changing color at all..

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks. The Copperband did show brief signs of Lympho a short while after being added to the tank, so that is likely what it is. It is also gone from the surviving sleeper goby now. As that's not usually fatal I also assume it didn't kill the two fish I lost, or cause the anenomes and corals to die or close for extended periods, so there's still an open question there. I also don't think it causes fish to scratch (but could be wrong) so there still appears to be something affecting Grammas in the tank. I guess the DNA test is the right next step. I'm assuming the Triton test is the most accurate (although the Hanna checker is a pretty simple procedure so I doubt I got it wrong *every* time, and also calibrated the checker beforehand).

One other thing in support of there being zero copper is that there has been Cuprisorb in the sump for a couple of weeks without changing color at all..

Yeah, most butterflies and large angels are susceptible to lympho

 

[Twosixpax]

Thanks for all of the advice. With zero copper showing in the ICP test, I focused on the possibility of Flukes as a couple of my fish were showing definite signs of scratching on sand and rock, but no visible signs of Ich.
I did 2 50% water changes (130G) over 3 days and have since dosed Prazipro three times for a week (dose for a week, do a 20% water change and then dose again. I have run car on or a skimmer for the entire period.
There were no further fish losses but a few days ago my Foxface stopped eating and today I found him swimming very slowly close to the sand. I gave him a 5 minute freshwater dip and have attached video/photographs. I couldn’t see any obvious signs of flukes in the fresh water but the photographs when I put him into a quarantine box seem to show damage around the gills. I sent a DNA test in a few weeks ago but won’t get the results until June 4th or later.
Any help with whether this could actually be flukes is appreciated - my understanding is that it is not usually fatal but I have lost 3 healthy fish..
Thanks!

 

[Crabby48]

Oh that's is rough... How long do you think the copper has been in the systems?

Although exposure to copper is not Good for the health of fish as it's kind of toxic, I don't see exposure of those levels killing fish but sparing inverts. They are highly copper sensitive.

Can you FW dip the FF without too much stress to check for flukes?

Agree copper shouldn’t be killing but whatever else got put in tank when copper did.

lost I put some snails and a blood shrimp in copper. Couldn’t remove them all. Shrimp checked out quick. Few snails in a week but most lives 3 weeks before checking out. I was surprised.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Agree copper shouldn’t be killing but whatever else got put in tank when copper did.

lost I put some snails and a blood shrimp in copper. Couldn’t remove them all. Shrimp checked out quick. Few snails in a week but most lives 3 weeks before checking out. I was surprised.

Wow! That's impressive. I donated a few snails from my big system to my QT when it was running empty, at miniscule trace levels of copper. I think only one of three lasted 3 weeks.

 

[Crabby48]

Wow! That's impressive. I donated a few snails from my big system to my QT when it was running empty, at miniscule trace levels of copper. I think only one of three lasted 3 weeks.

Wow. Guess I was lucky. I keep trochus. Thinking about it the Nassarius checked out quick

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Wow. Guess I was lucky. I keep trochus. Thinking about it the Nassarius checked out quick

Trochus breed in my system like herpes at ASU.

I'm not positive that the trace copper is what killed the snails in the qt, but that's really the only variable that would change between the systems.

 

[Crabby48]

Trochus breed in my system like herpes at ASU.

I'm not positive that the trace copper is what killed the snails in the qt, but that's really the only variable that would change between the systems.

I never saw babies until I took down a tank and found many baby shells. Guess wrasse pick them off fast idk

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

I never saw babies until I took down a tank and found many baby shells. Guess wrasse pick them off fast idk

The big tank is the same for me but the frag tank is the maternity ward. I don't think I'm exaggerating to say there are 100 sub adult trochus in the 30g shallow frag system. Every once in a while I pull a handful out and toss them in the other tanks.

 

[Crabby48]

The big tank is the same for me but the frag tank is the maternity ward. I don't think I'm exaggerating to say there are 100 sub adult trochus in the 30g shallow frag system. Every once in a while I pull a handful out and toss them in the other tanks.

Sell them! They bring big money

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Sell them! They bring big money

That sounds way more peopley than I'm set up for. I'll happily send you a handful when in need!