Coral Holibiont

[Subsea]

Glad to meet Abe.

This is what Feldman said about carbon intake:

On thriving reefs, most carbon input originates with atmospheric CO2, which is “fixed” via photosynthesis first into carbohydrates, and then into a multitude of other organic molecules.

 

[jda]

I think that some carbon comes from alk too. Dana Riddle has written about this. It could be either or both... neither are scarce in most situations (if they are, you are in trouble) so it never really mattered to me.

High co2 means low pH and that is not all that good for stony corals, so co2 at atmospheric levels of 400ish appears plenty fine.

 

[Subsea]

I think that some carbon comes from alk too. Dana Riddle has written about this. It could be either or both... neither are scarce in most situations (if they are, you are in trouble) so it never really mattered to me.

High co2 means low pH and that is not all that good for stony corals, so co2 at atmospheric levels of 400ish appears plenty fine.

No one doses kalk in the ocean, cardon dioxide in athmosphere and carbonate sediments both buffer alkalinity. A healthy IndoPacific reef has pH fluctuations 8.2 - 7.8.

 

[jda]

Not kalk. Carbonate - co3.

 

[Subsea]

Not kalk. Carbonate - co3.

I said kalk because I thought you were talking reef dosing. If I recall Oceaneering 101; carbon dioxide dissolved in water turning into a weak acid then carbonate then bicarbonate.

 

[jda]

Nah... just mentioning that others have the opinions that lots of carbon in corals comes from co3. co2, co3 - I don't care. I have plenty of both. It never seemed important to me. What seemed important was getting those zoox high quality and quantity light for them to make those sugars.

 

[beesnreefs]

These are the threads that make me come back for more. 3 years into this hobby I’ve learned two things; (1) there’s a ton of misguided advice provided confidently, and (2) I have almost no clue what I’m doing.

Grateful for folks like @Beuchat, @Subsea, @jda and the like for providing some real insight through the fog of the internets.

Just ordered copies of Reefkeeping Fundamentals and Natural Reef Aquariums on Amazon.

Three years in and I just now feel like I’m beginning to learn.

 

[Reefering1]

Following. Probably won't have much to add, here to learn. Please feel free give easily comprehensible notes on the more complicated points

 

[Subsea]

Following. Probably won't have much to add, here to learn. Please feel free give easily comprehensible notes on the more complicated points

Better than that, if it doesn’t compute, ask questions. It makes me learn more, when you ask more,

 

[Reefering1]

Deal. So, for a "intermediate reefer", name some literature to help me catch up on the deeper understanding. To turn the corner of responding to problems to preventing/recognizing before it's too late

 

[Subsea]

My favorite book series is written by Julian Sprung & Charles Delbric:

The Reef Aquarium: A Comprehensive Guide to the Identification and Care of Tropical Marine Invertebrates (Volume 1) Hardcover​

The Reef Aquarium, Vol. 2: A Comprehensive Guide to the Identification and Care of Tropical Marine Invertebrates​

The Reef Aquarium, Vol. 3: Science, Art, and Technology Hardcover – November 25, 2005​

These books are expensive. I recommend Volume 3 as an intermediate reefer.

I can’t say enough good about John Tullock “Natural Reef Aquarium”


Debunking the myth that reef aquariums need to be wildly expensive and technologically complex, John Tullock offers a new, radically simple approach to producing beautiful, captive microcosms.
Using live rock and live sand as part of a natural filtration system, the home aquarist can now create vibrant reef tanks that are biologically stable and simple to maintain.

With Tullocks suggestions, the reefkeeper can now mimic natural habitats such as a Florida Keys Lagoon, a Caribbean Turtle Grass Flat, an Indo-Pacific Deep Cave, or a Red Sea Patch Reef. With more than 200 color photographs and illustrations, Natural Reef Aquariums provides inspiration for both beginning and expert marine reef hobbyists.

PS: Tullock summarizes his methods with

Less Technology / More Biology

 

[Reefering1]

My favorite book series is written by Julian Sprung & Charles Delbric:

The Reef Aquarium: A Comprehensive Guide to the Identification and Care of Tropical Marine Invertebrates (Volume 1) Hardcover​

The Reef Aquarium, Vol. 2: A Comprehensive Guide to the Identification and Care of Tropical Marine Invertebrates​

The Reef Aquarium, Vol. 3: Science, Art, and Technology Hardcover – November 25, 2005​

These books are expensive. I recommend Volume 3 as an intermediate reefer.

I can’t say enough good about John Tullock “Natural Reef Aquarium”


Debunking the myth that reef aquariums need to be wildly expensive and technologically complex, John Tullock offers a new, radically simple approach to producing beautiful, captive microcosms.
Using live rock and live sand as part of a natural filtration system, the home aquarist can now create vibrant reef tanks that are biologically stable and simple to maintain.

With Tullocks suggestions, the reefkeeper can now mimic natural habitats such as a Florida Keys Lagoon, a Caribbean Turtle Grass Flat, an Indo-Pacific Deep Cave, or a Red Sea Patch Reef. With more than 200 color photographs and illustrations, Natural Reef Aquariums provides inspiration for both beginning and expert marine reef hobbyists.

Ordered and on the way.

 

[jda]

I think that everybody knows that I feel that BRS makes infomercials, but if quick hits are your thing, find the good guests on Reef Beef, Reef Bum, etc. and those an make for some nice viewings. Like Abe's channel above, they blend the science with the practical. You will see some similarities in most all of them like patience, planning, avoiding fads, no quick fixes or treatments, etc. Many of the long-term acropora people will still use Metal Halides (this is VERY true in a lot of the hobby) and some have left and come back. Many change water or at least have a very good plan to do the same things to remove the bad and add the good.

If you can ever find thread and videos that have on Copps or Dr. Joshi, they are good. I think that Dr. Joshi has been on Reef Bum a lot. If you want to nerd out, then Bingman is on Reef Beef sometimes and they can get into the weeds of some thing.

I really like to see how some of the best apply their craft and then hear them blend it with the science.

Lastly, don't forget to go to local shows and watch the speakers. You can gain a wonderful amount of knowledge. Sometimes you can also meet people who are happy to answer your questions down the road. Most of them are just nerds who are happy to help curious folks who are nice and patient enough to let them work around their real jobs.

 

[beesnreefs]

I think that everybody knows that I feel that BRS makes infomercials, but if quick hits are your thing, find the good guests on Reef Beef, Reef Bum, etc. and those an make for some nice viewings. Like Abe's channel above, they blend the science with the practical. You will see some similarities in most all of them like patience, planning, avoiding fads, no quick fixes or treatments, etc. Many of the long-term acropora people will still use Metal Halides (this is VERY true in a lot of the hobby) and some have left and come back. Many change water or at least have a very good plan to do the same things to remove the bad and add the good.

If you can ever find thread and videos that have on Copps or Dr. Joshi, they are good. I think that Dr. Joshi has been on Reef Bum a lot. If you want to nerd out, then Bingman is on Reef Beef sometimes and they can get into the weeds of some thing.

I really like to see how some of the best apply their craft and then hear them blend it with the science.

Lastly, don't forget to go to local shows and watch the speakers. You can gain a wonderful amount of knowledge. Sometimes you can also meet people who are happy to answer your questions down the road. Most of them are just nerds who are happy to help curious folks who are nice and patient enough to let them work around their real jobs.

This post is pure gold and should be considered essential advice for anyone in the hobby. Thanks @jda!

 

[Koleswrath]

However, I do know that people do read and stuff since I do get some PMs from time to time with tanks or some questions about this or that, so they don't have to post to learn.

Don't underestimate the influence you guys have. I'd bet there's more people than you think just reading without posting or even creating R2R accounts. I did it for years and still don't really post other than to thank people for their input and effort in making the hobby more interesting by solving the many mysteries going on in our tanks.

I think Bukowski said "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence."

A lot of what you might see posted publicly are the "full of confidence" people whereas the people who are questioning everything are sitting back and silently reading. These people appreciate all you guys do.

 

[Subsea]

“Bukowski said "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence”

It’s unfortunately true. Thank you for the encouragement.

 

[Subsea]

I choose to list this again because of recent conversations about “Old Tank Syndrome”. The post below reinforces what Ken Feldman / Sanjay said in conclusions statement on carbon dosing in reef aquariums.

Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration​

by Ken S. Feldman | Mar 3, 2011 | 0 comments
Departments of Chemistry (Ken S. Feldman, Allison A. Place) and Industrial and Manufacturing Engineering (Sanjay Joshi), The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pennsylvania 16802, and Route 66 Marine, Gardena, California (Gary White)

@Lasse Join in, when it works for your
Viking Wisdom

@Beuchat said
The concept of tank maturity

The disappearance of algae pests is related to the concept of "mature and stable aquarium". Since I started in the hobby more than 25 years ago, I have heard these two terms all the time, and have always wondered what they really mean. Tank maturity and stability is an emerging quality that has very complex chemical, biological and ecological underpinnings. We can say that aquarium stability is closely related to the stability of the typical parameters that we usually measure, i.e.: concentrations of calcium, magnesium, alkalinity, nitrate, phosphate, potassium, trace elements, etc., but there is something that goes beyond such parameter stability and has a lot to do with the interspecific competition between species of microorganisms and macroscopic organisms that inhabit the aquarium.

When we speak of these "emergent" qualities it is convenient to emphasize that they are based on innumerable chemical and biochemical processes that sustain the metabolism of the organisms that are part of the microcosm. There is absorption and release of nutrients into the water, birth, growth, reproduction, predation and death. Algae, protists and bacteria constitute the first levels of the trophic web, taking care of the recycling of organic and inorganic nutrients in the water column, all of them interacting with each other and with the environment where they live (as an ecosystem itself).

In reference to the concept of maturity I want to propose a hypothesis, which by definition is something that must be demonstrated to be taken as true. The intention of this article is to generate a debate about it. The hypothesis can be expressed as a series of "requirements" for the attainment of the state of maturity, namely:

- Stability of chemical parameters, as mentioned.

- Stability in light intensity and spectrum.

- Diversity of microorganisms: phytoplankton, zooplankton (copepods, for example), autotrophic and heterotrophic bacteria. Diversity is one of the consequences of
stability, as occurs in coral reefs.

- Sufficient" concentrations of nitrate and phosphate in the water so that all species have "food" so that none of them can take advantage due to their metabolism
adapted to "extreme" situations, for example, cyanobacteria that are able to take advantage of the nitrogen dissolved in the water, without the need to directly assimilate
ammonia.

- Real competition between all aquarium organisms, especially microorganisms: bacteria, phytoplankton and zooplankton. This competition could be summarized in several
types:


o Competition for space. This is probably one of the most relevant. Once a surface (live rock, substrate, etc.) is colonized by one species, it becomes more difficult
for another to occupy that spot (therefore newly set up aquariums are so prone to algae pests).

o Competition for inorganic nutrients. The availability of ammonia, nitrate, phosphate, CO2 and trace elements in the water is variable and depends on
consumption and release by organisms. For example, a functional heterotrophic bacterial biofilm will remove nitrate and phosphate on its surface, made
more difficult for algae to assimilate.

o Grazing and predation. Algae are subjected to grazing by zooplankton, for example, copepods feeding on dinoflagellates. Surgeonfish grazing at diatoms and
hair algae on the rocks or tank walls limit their growth.

o Chemical interaction between organisms. I will elaborate on this point in more detail in the next paragraph for clarity. I am convinced that it is the most
relevant factor of them all.

 

[jda]

I would really like it if nobody ever mentioned old tank syndrome ever again. The term is ambiguous and it does not apply. When people cannot figure something out, they just go to "old tank."

The original old tank syndrome, to me, was when people thought that their tanks and 3 or 4 years would start to leach phosphates from out of nowhere. One of the sayings was that sand beds were phosphate factories - like they can manufacturer po4 out of nowhere. Of course, this is just their misunderstanding, but it was one of the first internet reef tank misconceptions. Of course, it was that they did not understand that the aragonite was masking their lack of phosphate mantenace for a long time... and maybe that they did not understand the difference between binding/unbinding vs absorb/leach.

Also, getting old is undefeated. You cannot just simply change a thing (like add carbon) and fix an issue with being old. Most issues with old things are chronic.

Most of these issues likely should be just called what they are. For example, if Abe thinks that his tank was carbon deficient, then just call it that. It was not because the tank was old.

 

[Subsea]

I prefer to think outside the box, so

I have invited @Lasse to bring a perspective of European Reefers into the discussion.

I am not young enough to know everything, but neither so old that I forgotten everything
Liberté, égalité, fraternité

 

[Subsea]

Feldman said

The Coral Holobiont​

A coral’s holobiont is comprised of close associations between the coral animal itself, its symbiotic zooxanthellae, and a diversity of associated microbes including bacteria, archaea, algae, and fungi. These associations can take place in the coral’s immediate environment, on its surface, within its tissues, and within its skeleton (if present). This paradigm emphasizes the potential contributions of each component to the overall function and health of the coral (Rypien, 2010). The dynamic nature of these relationships can be seen in a comparison between freshly collected corals from the Red Sea region that were then placed into marine aquaria. A microbial community shift in the bacteria inhabiting the surface mucus layer was documented for collected corals when placed into the captive marine aquarium. The differences that emerged between corals from natural and captive environments suggested an adaptation of the mucus bacterial communities to the different conditions (Kooperman, 2007).

Disruptions within a coral’s holobiont have the potential to negatively impact the coral’s health. Altered bacterial community structures have been linked to both coral disease and bleaching (Kvennefors, 2010). Coral bleaching occurs if the endosymbiosis between corals and their symbiots disintegrates during stress (Ainsworth, 2008). Even so, shifts in the holobiont’s bacterial community component may not be a direct cause of coral bleaching. While bacterial communities play important roles in coral stasis and health, environmental stressors appear to be the primary triggers for coral bleaching, and bacterial involvement in patterns of bleaching appear to be the result of opportunistic colonization (Ainsworth, 2008).

“Probiotic” Application of Bacteria​