Coral dying when trying to get correct water params?

[Icryhard]

So I am trying to lower my phosphate, but for some reason whenever I come closer to the 0.06 PPM, the more this coral seems to wanna die(?)
My water values are:

salinity: 1025
PH: 8.15
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: +/- 5-10 PPM
phosphate: 0.2
magnesium: 1275
calcium: 365
water temp: 25-26 (between the 25 and 26 it hovers)
Dkh: 13 (trying to reduce it)

when my phosphate levels were up, the coral did way better and wasn't bend over like this. What could a possible reason be for it? I used 3 Hydra 26 HD for my 120 gallon and recently changed the waterflow a bit from a direct stream to more back-to-front. Could anyone ID the coral as well by any chance?

 

[Jason_MrFrags]

With higher nutrients you can run your alk higher. But as you lower your nutrients you need to lower your alkalinity. phosphate that high isn't horrible for soft corals, you just may see additonal algae growth. Alkalinity can be lowered by using a small amount of Muratic acid.

 

[o2manyfish]

Phosphate is nutrients. Nutrients is food in the water column.

Phosphates are not bad!

Phosphates without adequate and proper filtration "Can" lead to algae issues. But there are multiple beautiful aquariums out there with long histories that run high phosphates ---- I mean values of 1.5 to 2.5. There is a public aquarium that has been running a coral display tank for over a decade with phosphates over 4.0.

No, the decimal points in the values I posted are not incorrect. A proper system can support higher level of nutrients without algae issues. The higher the nutrients the more available food for the corals. The more available food, the more there is for the corals to consume and the better their health.

One of the great fallacies I see all the time is I lowered my phosphates and my corals started to polyp up. Now the original Poster is showing a Leather Coral - So this isn't relevant to a leather, but a stony coral with polyps out is feeding.

Corals in the wild DO NOT feed during the day time. If so they would have their polyps munched by a multi-tude of fish that live on the reef. So a nice hairy acro with the lights on doesn't represent a happy acro as much as an acro that is so in need of food that it is forced to try to feed during the day lit hours.

From the photo posted I see three different soft corals, all of which normally do better, and come from areas of dirty water (higher phosphates).

Also, all three are soft corals - So Alkalinity levels that someone else mentioned is irrelevant because these corals are not building a coral skeleton.

I'm not being critical, because it's not a great clear photo that you posted, but your rock work does look a little dirty, but it doesn't seem to be covered in stringy algae or hair algae. If you think you are fighting algae issues, it doesn't appear so in the photo. If you think your rock is dirty, then an investment in a large snail population could clean that up.

But don't go chasing a Value, like phosphates, when you aren't chasing down a problem. If you corals look better with higher phos values, then look to increase your phos as high as you can without creating algae issues. More phosphates, more food, happier corals.

Dave B

 

[Icryhard]

Phosphate is nutrients. Nutrients is food in the water column.

Phosphates are not bad!

Phosphates without adequate and proper filtration "Can" lead to algae issues. But there are multiple beautiful aquariums out there with long histories that run high phosphates ---- I mean values of 1.5 to 2.5. There is a public aquarium that has been running a coral display tank for over a decade with phosphates over 4.0.

No, the decimal points in the values I posted are not incorrect. A proper system can support higher level of nutrients without algae issues. The higher the nutrients the more available food for the corals. The more available food, the more there is for the corals to consume and the better their health.

One of the great fallacies I see all the time is I lowered my phosphates and my corals started to polyp up. Now the original Poster is showing a Leather Coral - So this isn't relevant to a leather, but a stony coral with polyps out is feeding.

Corals in the wild DO NOT feed during the day time. If so they would have their polyps munched by a multi-tude of fish that live on the reef. So a nice hairy acro with the lights on doesn't represent a happy acro as much as an acro that is so in need of food that it is forced to try to feed during the day lit hours.

From the photo posted I see three different soft corals, all of which normally do better, and come from areas of dirty water (higher phosphates).

Also, all three are soft corals - So Alkalinity levels that someone else mentioned is irrelevant because these corals are not building a coral skeleton.

I'm not being critical, because it's not a great clear photo that you posted, but your rock work does look a little dirty, but it doesn't seem to be covered in stringy algae or hair algae. If you think you are fighting algae issues, it doesn't appear so in the photo. If you think your rock is dirty, then an investment in a large snail population could clean that up.

But don't go chasing a Value, like phosphates, when you aren't chasing down a problem. If you corals look better with higher phos values, then look to increase your phos as high as you can without creating algae issues. More phosphates, more food, happier corals.

Dave B

Well at the very beginning I indeed did have hairy algae which I managed to fight off, but the rock-work as you mentioned remained somewhat dirty. I do have 2 snails, but as you know, this is far from enough so the process is slow. However my goal is to eventually have anemone corals, which I've read were sensitive to high phosphates. Was this wrong? Everywhere I went everyone said to me my 0.5-0.7 phosphates were "way too high", which I guessed would be me just being lucky then that the corals would be out and happy... So now my question is: Can I keep these corals, which in my aquarium apparently are very happy with values of 0.5 phosphates whilst having other type of corals?

 

[o2manyfish]

Here is a pic of my old 400g with phosphate of about 1.8 - Phosphates measured using Triton ICP going back 7 years.

Just about every kind of coral you can imagine is in there and doing well.

Dave B

 

[vetteguy53081]

So I am trying to lower my phosphate, but for some reason whenever I come closer to the 0.06 PPM, the more this coral seems to wanna die(?)
My water values are:

salinity: 1025
PH: 8.15
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: +/- 5-10 PPM
phosphate: 0.2
magnesium: 1275
calcium: 365
water temp: 25-26 (between the 25 and 26 it hovers)
Dkh: 13 (trying to reduce it)

when my phosphate levels were up, the coral did way better and wasn't bend over like this. What could a possible reason be for it? I used 3 Hydra 26 HD for my 120 gallon and recently changed the waterflow a bit from a direct stream to more back-to-front. Could anyone ID the coral as well by any chance?

Stable numbers are more important than values. Phos does not kill fish and there are organic and inorganic phosphates in which organic is the one more impactful but can be reduced alone by skimming. When adding chemicals, we are in essence chasing values. High phosphates can turn coral brown and deplete the zooxanthellae which provide corals sugar for color and energy.
Focus also on other parameters without chasing targets. I assume you are using Api kits?

ammonia: 0- This may be a false reading
nitrite: 0 - Disregard unless sky high (above 100)
nitrate: +/- 5-10 PPM
phosphate: 0.2 - close to mine but desirable at .04-.08. Feed more to get umbers up
magnesium: 1275 acceptable but ideal at 1300-1350
calcium: 365- low- 400-450

Verify your numbers by taking a water sample to a store that does NOT use Api kits and have them test your ammonia and nitrates and compare readings- then you'll know where your levels truly are at

 

[Icryhard]

Here is a pic of my old 400g with phosphate of about 1.8 - Phosphates measured using Triton ICP going back 7 years.

Just about every kind of coral you can imagine is in there and doing well.

Dave B

May I ask how you would acclimate your corals? The majority of these corals would often come out of waters where phosphate would be 0.06 +/-, correct? Odd question: But could flow possibly be a factor? There is barely any direct flow where this coral is.

 

[Icryhard]

Stable numbers are more important than values. Phos does not kill fish and there are organic and inorganic phosphates in which organic is the one more impactful but can be reduced alone by skimming. When adding chemicals, we are in essence chasing values. High phosphates can turn coral brown and deplete the zooxanthellae which provide corals sugar for color and energy.
Focus also on other parameters without chasing targets. I assume you are using Api kits?

ammonia: 0- This may be a false reading
nitrite: 0 - Disregard unless sky high (above 100)
nitrate: +/- 5-10 PPM
phosphate: 0.2 - close to mine but desirable at .04-.08. Feed more to get umbers up
magnesium: 1275 acceptable but ideal at 1300-1350
calcium: 365- low- 400-450

Verify your numbers by taking a water sample to a store that does NOT use Api kits and have them test your ammonia and nitrates and compare readings- then you'll know where your levels truly are at

I thought ammonia and nitrite should NOT be disregarded if you can read values? wouldn't 100 be a very high value? Basically borderline poisoning?

 

[vetteguy53081]

I thought ammonia and nitrite should NOT be disregarded if you can read values? wouldn't 100 be a very high value? Basically borderline poisoning?

Ammonia should not be disregarded. I suspect its a false reading (higher than zero) which is why I Asked how you are testing it. Ammonia safe at <.025
Nitrate has impact on freshwater but in saltwater no impact on aquatic like unless as mentioned extremely high which is rare to occur

 

[Icryhard]

Ammonia should not be disregarded. I suspect its a false reading (higher than zero) which is why I Asked how you are testing it. Ammonia safe at <.025
Nitrate has impact on freshwater but in saltwater no impact on aquatic like unless as mentioned extremely high which is rare to occur

Ah yes like that. Then we're on the same line. You stated nitrite could be over 100, which I found odd, but in that case we're talking about the same things (I think?). I test with Salifert, so of course the Ammonia will not actually be 0, but I've read "not detectable is good" and it returns according to Salifert 0.

 

[Icryhard]

Stable numbers are more important than values. Phos does not kill fish and there are organic and inorganic phosphates in which organic is the one more impactful but can be reduced alone by skimming. When adding chemicals, we are in essence chasing values. High phosphates can turn coral brown and deplete the zooxanthellae which provide corals sugar for color and energy.
Focus also on other parameters without chasing targets. I assume you are using Api kits?

ammonia: 0- This may be a false reading
nitrite: 0 - Disregard unless sky high (above 100)
nitrate: +/- 5-10 PPM
phosphate: 0.2 - close to mine but desirable at .04-.08. Feed more to get umbers up
magnesium: 1275 acceptable but ideal at 1300-1350
calcium: 365- low- 400-450

Verify your numbers by taking a water sample to a store that does NOT use Api kits and have them test your ammonia and nitrates and compare readings- then you'll know where your levels truly are at

Welp you seem to be right, the coral seems to enjoy around 0.4 (not around 0.04) which according to some people is way too high. Any lower than 0.4 and it hangs over like this and the green anemones seem to be reduced in size (shrink up) when it's lower than 0.4. So I guess I'll keep it at 0.4 and maybe in a year or so try to reduce it with 0.1 and see what the effects are. I amped it up with 0.2, which is if I am not mistaken way too much for one day, but I wanted to see whether it would act different and after an hour or so it started to stand upright again a bit.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Welp you seem to be right, the coral seems to enjoy around 0.4 (not around 0.04) which according to some people is way too high. Any lower than 0.4 and it hangs over like this and the green anemones seem to be reduced in size (shrink up) when it's lower than 0.4. So I guess I'll keep it at 0.4 and maybe in a year or so try to reduce it with 0.1 and see what the effects are. I amped it up with 0.2, which is if I am not mistaken way too much for one day, but I wanted to see whether it would act different and after an hour or so it started to stand upright again a bit.

You used the word stay- Keep it stable and use it as a baseline. Every tank has a happy median and this may be one

 

[Icryhard]

You used the word stay- Keep it stable and use it as a baseline. Every tank has a happy median and this may be one

Would you recommend me to lower the Kh slighty then? It's 13 Dkh right now or would you recommend me to just keep it like this? I added a little bit of calcium to bring it closer to the 400 now. If you do recommend me to lower the Kh, I figured I could do so by putting in a couple of drops of lemon juice, since I do not prefer to do water changes right now. Or would you recommend me to do water changes anyway to reduce the Kh?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Would you recommend me to lower the Kh slighty then? It's 13 Dkh right now or would you recommend me to just keep it like this? I added a little bit of calcium to bring it closer to the 400 now. If you do recommend me to lower the Kh, I figured I could do so by putting in a couple of drops of lemon juice, since I do not prefer to do water changes right now. Or would you recommend me to do water changes anyway to reduce the Kh?

Lowering suddenly will cause issues with calcium and ph. Add none and if your salt mix has lower alk content, you can do 1-2 gallon water changes every other day to gradually bring it down. Watch your calcium level while doing this