Coral Beauty died in QT

[Cody Grkman]

Hi everyone. Yesterday I lost my Coral Beauty in the quarantine tank. The 20G tank had nothing in it other than PVC, an airstone, and a HOB filter.He had developed ich a few weeks ago and so I moved him into quarantine to treat him with copper. The tank had been fully cycled. He was acting completely normal two nights ago and was eating normally and had absolutely no signs of ich on him or any signs of distress. He seemed perfectly fine. I did a test of the water parameters and they were as follows:
NH3 - 0ppm
NO2 - 0ppm
NO3 - <5ppm
Copper (I was treating with Cupramine) - <.5ppm
Salinity - 1.025
pH - 8.6... this does seem high. Could this be the culprit?
Temp - 76F

Does anyone have any other ideas as to what might have happened? Want to make sure this doesn't happen again. Thanks in advance for all help and replies

 

[HotRocks]

Hi everyone. Yesterday I lost my Coral Beauty in the quarantine tank. The 20G tank had nothing in it other than PVC, an airstone, and a HOB filter.He had developed ich a few weeks ago and so I moved him into quarantine to treat him with copper. The tank had been fully cycled. He was acting completely normal two nights ago and was eating normally and had absolutely no signs of ich on him or any signs of distress. He seemed perfectly fine. I did a test of the water parameters and they were as follows:
NH3 - 0ppm
NO2 - 0ppm
NO3 - <5ppm
Copper (I was treating with Cupramine) - <.5ppm
Salinity - 1.025
pH - 8.6... this does seem high. Could this be the culprit?
Temp - 76F

Does anyone have any other ideas as to what might have happened? Want to make sure this doesn't happen again. Thanks in advance for all help and replies

Do you run an ammonia badge in your QT? Just curious as I see you Say NH3 was 0, but was that from a test or badge? They say the test isn't accurate when medications are present.

 

[Cody Grkman]

It was from a test. I did not know it could be inaccurate due to copper but that could be a factor then. There were no ammonia burns present, though.

 

[HotRocks]

hmmmmm... @Big G @4FordFamily @Humblefish @Maritimer

 

[Big G]

Can you tell us about your copper dosing? When did you start? What was dosage rate? Was it at therapeutic level when it passed? If so, how long had it been at therapeutic level? What test kit are you using?

 

[Cody Grkman]

Can you tell us about your copper dosing? When did you start? What was dosage rate? Was it at therapeutic level when it passed? If so, how long had it been at therapeutic level? What test kit are you using?

I started dosing copper on Saturday the 10th. I dosed according to the Cupramine to bring it close to 2ppm (.5mg/L). It was at that level when the fish passed. I am using the API Copper test kit.

 

[lagatbezan]

when treating with copper you have to keep a close eye on your water evaporation since it will raise the copper level in the tank.
Also you need to raise the copper level gradually over 3-5 days. this way the fish slowly adjusts to it. Doing it too quickly could have cause the death that you experienced.
You also want to use seachems copper test and not API.

 

[Cody Grkman]

+1^
Also when treating with copper you have to keep a close eye on your water evaporation since it will raise the copper level in the tank.

I was watching evaporation closely. It did not have an ATO but I kept it very close manually (within 1cm or so).

 

[Big G]

I started dosing copper on Saturday the 10th. I dosed according to the Cupramine to bring it close to 2ppm (.5mg/L). It was at that level when the fish passed. I am using the API Copper test kit.

Did you follow the directions on the bottle about dosing 20 drops per 10.5 gallons and wait 48 hours then repeat?
The test kits that works accurately for Cupramine are Seachems & Salifert.

 

[Cody Grkman]

Yes I dosed 20 drops per 10.5 gallons. Waited 48 hours, then repeated.

 

[Fishfinder]

Raising copper level in 1 day could for sure do it.

 

[Big G]

Yes I dosed 20 drops per 10.5 gallons. Waited 48 hours, then repeated.

Ok. So here's the deal. Dwarf angels are a bit sensitive to some forms of copper. Ionic coppers like Cupramine have been shown to be harder on Dwarf Angels; the preferred copper for Dwarf Angels are chelated coppers like Coppersafe, Copper Power.
It's better to slowly dose the copper over 5-7 days rather than the two big doses. I dose much smaller doses twice a day over 7-8 days and have had very good results even with copper sensitive fish.

 

[Big G]

Here's a wonderful chart our own Meredith created to help guide us all on which copper and or CP is best for certain fish.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-and-treatment-guidelines-with-chart.283450/#post-3449648

 

[Cody Grkman]

Ok. So here's the deal. Dwarf angels are a bit sensitive to some forms of copper. Ionic coppers like Cupramine have been shown to be harder on Dwarf Angels; the preferred copper for Dwarf Angels are chelated coppers like Coppersafe, Copper Power.
It's better to slowly dose the copper over 5-7 days rather than the two big doses. I dose much smaller doses twice a day over 7-8 days and have had very good results even with copper sensitive fish.

Could definitely be the reason this happened then and so it comes back to me for lack of research. I'll make sure I do some more of that before the next time and will dose more slowly over time. Thanks for the info

 

[Big G]

Could definitely be the reason this happened then and so it comes back to me for lack of research. I'll make sure I do some more of that before the next time and will dose more slowly over time. Thanks for the info

You did the right thing by treating your fish infected with Ich. Seems like almost every Dwarf Angel I've seen lately or heard about, has Ich or velvet. Tough way to start with already battling parasites. Nothing wrong with Cupramine. I've used it many times. Just get a Seachem test kit & a Seachem Ammonia Alert Badge, and consider spreading out the dosage over 7-8 days. That of course goes out the window if you are battling Marine Velvet and in that case you have no choice but to get to therapeutic levels within 48 hours. With velvet, time is your enemy. And make no mistake, copper is a poison. Sometimes you will do everything right and still lose a fish. So many factors: how the fish was collected; how the fish was shipped; diseases it was exposed to, etc. So be of good cheer you were making an effort to help your fish and that's a good thing.

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

Could also be nothing to do with the copper and the fish just dropped dead. This happens. With that said, I never use Cupramine, always a chelated like CopperSafe. Because Ionic copper is not stable in the water column and not easy to use in general. It should be noted that a near sterile QT environment is incredibly hard on dwarf angels who are constantly grazing on live rock and need an established system to thrive. Lots of animals are lost due to that reason alone.

 

[Big G]

It should be noted that a near sterile QT environment is incredibly hard on dwarf angels who are constantly grazing on live rock and need an established system to thrive. Lots of animals are lost due to that reason alone.

Very true. They literally wear themselves out pecking around the tank looking for nourishment.

 

[Cody Grkman]

Thanks for all of the information guys. These are things I didn't even think to consider. Would you recommend having a sheet of algae available in the tank during the quarantine? I currently have no fish in the DT and plan to leave it that way for at least 72 days, and from here on out will be quarantining everything. I learned the hard way and want to take every step possible to prevent something like this in the future.

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

Thanks for all of the information guys. These are things I didn't even think to consider. Would you recommend having a sheet of algae available in the tank during the quarantine? I currently have no fish in the DT and plan to leave it that way for at least 72 days, and from here on out will be quarantining everything. I learned the hard way and want to take every step possible to prevent something like this in the future.

Yes, definitely. Put some drops of Selcon and VitaChem on the seaweed for a few mins before putting it. Change it out daily. It may take them a few days to start pecking at it, so be persistent.

 

[Big G]

+1 ^^^ exactly And here's a trick, wrap a rock with the nori and use a rubber band to secure it to the rock. Tie a bit of light fishing line to the rubber band. Easy to lower into the tank; easy to pull out of the tank.