*COPPERSAFE WARNING* along with Research on Hanna Instruments High Range Copper Checker

[HotRocks]

Anyone who is using coppersafe needs to know the following: There are several of us here at R2R experiencing issues with the concentration of coppersafe lately, Even seasoned veterans @Big G, @4FordFamily to list a couple that I know of. Myself included (without the veteran part). Have also seen mention of a couple other members having the same issue. I am in the early stages of research and results currently. If you are using the product (especially a recently purchased bottle) be very careful and I would highly recommend daily testing as ramping up to your therapeutic target. We are finding the concentration is inconsistent and possibly over 2X the actual baseline (in my situation). Meaning you may reach therapeutic levels prior to dosing the amount instructed on the bottle. This is a friendly heads up, and myself and others will update as we work through this.

I'm also in the very early testing stages of Hanna instruments High Range copper checker (my personal fiasco with coppersafe promted all of this). If you're interested in it, you can go to link below to see what I've found thus far. Start at the post link and follow from there. This appears it may be a wonderful method to get exact results making it much easier for hobbyists to dose and maintian therapudic levels of all types of copper in the QT process.

I welcome any suggestions, questions, comments etc.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/proper-dosing-of-coppersafe.309726/page-7#post-4546538


Edit/Update 3/26/18
Hey I know a lot of you are following this thread. I am creating this just edit as a quick reference for someone who just wants to view the data, as the thread is getting lengthy. I will keep it up to date, and add results as I continue to test, to this first post.

I know some members have also ordered the testers, also look forward to them sharing their findings.

https://hannainst.com/hi702-copper-hr.html

Disclaimer: We are patiently awaiting @Hanna Instruments to conduct their own testing and validate the tester is accurate in saltwater.
My findings seem it is, but they have to do their own research as a company, in order to be able to state publicly it is accurate in the presence of saltwater.


Edit/Update: 5/3/18
Hanna has validated the tester for use in saltwater! Link to post below.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...ge-copper-checker.368943/page-49#post-4692650

This is also a link, to a video myself and @4FordFamily created upon request. We made it a true live test by dosing one of my tanks and testing, result was amazing. The video is nothing special, but may help a first time user with a couple little tricks I figured out along the way.



Upcoming this week, I will begin posting results as I dose my current QT, with the product Copper Power. (I had hoped to do this sooner, a few fish I had ordered shipped late!)

Thank you to everyone who has contributed, and suggested on certain types of copper to test etc.

So far I have tested the following products, what I believe to be accurately
Copper Safe
Copper Power
Cupramine
Cuprion
DIY "Old School" Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate Thanks @Humblefish, @Christoph

Below are the very first tests I ran just to see the difference between testing in freshwater and saltwater. My bottle of coppersafe is much more potent than it is supposed to be. You can see the detail on this throughout the thread.


1st test
1gallon RODI, 1.25ml syringe measured coppersafe to match dosing instructions on bottle. Result 2.99ppm

Test 2
Added salt to test 1 bucket, salinity of 1.024. Result 3.03ppm

Hanna states a .05 +/- so even in saltwater test results seem to be very accurate at this point.

Test 3
1gallon RODI with syringe measured 1.475ml of copper power Result 2.53ppm

Test 4
Add salt to salinity of 1.024 of test 3 bucket Result 2.49ppm

For those of you that had inquired. Test works perfectly fine with ionic copper, I tested my cupramine. Dosed to what should have been .50 into freshly mixed saltwater this time. I skipped the fresh test just based on the fact that yesterday's test results didn't seem to vary outside of Hanna's variance for the device of +/- .05 either with or without salt.
Result was .54

I did have a chance to test copper power, in DT water tonight.

A little less consistent. But that could just because I used my wife's measuring cups from the kitchen to take the water from the tank. Quickly while she wasnt paying attention to me. Shhhhhh...
(I never bring anything from my QT room in my unfinished portion of basement anywhere near my DT, which is where my measuring bucket I preformed original tests with is)

Target 2.50
Result 2.42

The following are the tests the coincide with the video @4FordFamily and I made
Took a base test of my 40b QT prior to the test. Reading was .06ppm. less than I initially expected, but given the fact I have topped off the tank since last test it's acceptable. The much more important part of the equation is the dosing.

Base test. .06ppm

I am calling it 40 gallons, if you deduct displacement add back HOB filter, call it 40.
Copper Power. 2.5ppm yeild if dosed at 59ml to 40 gallons. Per manufacturer. They give directions to dose 1oz per 20 gal. 1oz is 29.5ml

2.5ppm/59ml=.042ppm per ml dosed
*4ml dose=.169ppm per 4ml dose.

So base test. .06ppm +.17ppm Dose=23ppm target after dose

Result. Yep. EXACTLY .23ppm
Watch the video.

I even did a re-test afterward for my data I am providing Hanna. It was still well within +/-.05

Backup test. .25ppm

For this test, I used one gallon of saltwater. I dosed 3.8ml of the DIY copper solution. I arrive at that math since I used a gallon of water, roughly 3.8 liters to keep it simple. 1ml per liter should yeild a concentration of 1.0ppm. I ran 3 tests in total. Below you will find the results are indeed another successful trial. Exciting stuff!
PLEASE NOTE: This Homemade Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate Solution has a very tight therapeutic range of .15-.2ppm. DO NOT Dose it at the rate I used for the test, as it would be highly toxic. I was just following recommendations by @Christoph for testing purposes only.

Cuprion Results

I dosed 2 drops to 1 gallon of saltwater. Intsructions read that one drop per gallon will yeild .2ppm.

Again dosing by the drop, and testing small amounts you have to be very precise with the accuracy of the Hanna method.

I know this is not a widely used product but have seen threads where it is the only thing available to some hobbyists. Again will need @Humblefish to elaborate on theraputic level etc.

Target was .4ppm, I ran three tests
Again, as expected accurate and within the +/-.05ppm.

Tips for Using @Hanna Instruments High Range Copper Checker
-Make sure your cuvettes are very clean prior to use. Wash, Rinse and Dry Immediately after each use.
-Make sure the sample water you are testing is free of any debris
-Place the cuvette into the tester the same direction for both the zero reading and the test reading. (Keeping the 10ml marking on the glass facing forward is a good way to accomplish this)
-Tap or swirl the cuvette to remove any air bubbles prior to each time you place into tester
-Make sure your cuvette is completely dry and free of fingerprints each time you place into tester. Handle the cuvette by the lid once clean.
-There is a trick to getting all of the reagent into the cuvette, watch the video on the first post of this thread.

Keep in mind, this really no different than visual test methods. When you add the reagent, it changes the water to various shades of purple. The darker the tint, the higher the copper level. The Tester shines light through the sample and measures the amount of light passing through to provide the digital reading. Anything that can interfere with the process is what you want to prevent. Just food for thought!

 

[Humblefish]

Following with great interest

 

[4FordFamily]

Amazing, thanks and I oook forward to your updates! Curious to hear/see the results of this with ionic copper like cupramine and chelated such as copper power and coppersafe.

 

[Jason mack]

Following !

 

[drstardust]

I just purchased one of these, @HotRocks. Hoping to contribute to your data as best I can

 

[HotRocks]

I just purchased one of these, @HotRocks. Hoping to contribute to your data as best I can

Glad to hear it! Thanks. I am also in communication with Hanna now, and it's looking more promising!

 

[Greenstreet.1]

@HotRocks
This is a great thread thank you very much for coming up with this idea. Looks like I need to add one of these Hanna’s to my arsenal and see if I can give an helping hand as I use copper power and cupramine.

 

[HotRocks]

I am moving this stuff over from another thread just for anyone who is following:

The main thing that will make this so difficult, is who knows if I just got a bad batch, or if fritz QC is slipping, or they have altogether changed the concentration. I just killed an entire batch of fish, due to the concentration on my bottle being almost 2.5 times the potency of 1.16-1.17. I did make the mistake of not testing while dosing with this particular batch of fish. Only because I always followed the protocol on this particular thread when dosing, i always have measured with syringes etc. And never had problems in the past. So I figured if I was measuring and with known past success, testing was only necessary when I got to therapeutic levels just to confirm I was where I wanted to be. I need to test more bottles that I have, and I need to order another bottle that is not within my same batch # to try to pin this down (I have one open bottle, and an unopened bottle, both have matching batch numbers). I have tested the open bottle thus far. Which Is same bottle that I used to basically poison my QT. What started all of this is I had a pretty healthy batch of fish and then all of the sudden they all quit eating and dropped dead within 72 hrs. I tested with my API kit and told @4FordFamily that I thought I had a copper problem, I was seeing what I believed to be 4.0 or above. I'm trying to keep this as brief as I can but provide enough detail to be logical and helpful.

My eyes aren't the greatest on the color charts for testing. I don't necessarily struggle with them but, I second guess myself. I knew regardless what I was seeing was way above the 1.75-2.0 that I was shooting for with my API test kit. This prompted me to do some research on the Hanna instruments high range copper checker. After contacting them via phone, they guaranteed accurate results with freshwater but not saltwater. They still had testing to complete to confirm what I was trying to accomplish would work. Mind you I was on vacation in the Bahamas with plenty of time to think about it (mainly my loss of well over 1 thousand dollars worth of fish, and I can deal with the loss, but my brain will not allow me to not know what the cause was for future prevention) and thought heck I will do my own testing. Meanwhile, @4FordFamily runs into the same issue, and around the same time I remember a post in the disease forum where another person was encountering the same thing but caught it while testing during ramp up, soooooo I got online and ordered two testers and a spare pack of reagents. They showed up today.

I went straight to work with them as soon as I got home from work this evening. I need more time to compile results and I want to duplicate the tests to make sure what I am providing is 100% accurate.

I also had made my mind up that I was switching to copper power for my next QT batch because all of this, the little bit of testing I did tonight will definitely have me switching.

So far tonight I tested my open bottle of copper safe (the one that was the cause of all of this). I also tested a brand new bottle of copper power. I have tested two ways because of Hanna telling me that results can't be guaranteed in saltwater.

1st test
1gallon RODI, 1.25ml syringe measured coppersafe to match dosing instructions on bottle. Result 2.99ppm

Test 2
Added salt to test 1 bucket, salinity of 1.024. Result 3.03ppm

Hanna states a .05 +/- so even in saltwater test results seem to be very accurate at this point.

Test 3
1gallon RODI with syringe measured 1.475ml of copper power Result 2.53ppm

Test 4
Add salt to salinity of 1.024 of test 3 bucket Result 2.49ppm

I also tested each of these with my API kit to confirm the the Hanna checker is accurate.

So. What I gain thus far is I definitely have a bad(potent/toxic) bottle of coppersafe (I will be testing all the coppersafe i can get my hands on within reason). Copper power has good quality control as their dosing instructions indicate a level of 2.5ppm, which is confirmed by my preliminary testing, and eventually we will hear from Hanna that the tester is deemed accurate in salt or fresh based on these results. Much more testing to come, and per @Humblefish recommendation, I will probably dose my first round of copper power up to 2.0ppm being that it is chelated copper and should be therapudic between 1.5-2.0. I will keep you all updated as I gather more results to validate this further. I don't want to cause a panic "yet". My advice if you are currently using or plan to continue to use coppersafe, Test Test Test. Link for hanna tester below. They are very affordable at $50 IMO

https://hannainst.com/hi702-copper-hr.html

For those of you that had inquired. Test works perfectly fine with ionic copper, I tested my cupramine. Dosed to what should have been .50 into freshly mixed saltwater this time. I skipped the fresh test just based on the fact that yesterday's test results didn't seem to vary outside of Hanna's variance for the device of +/- .05 either with or without salt.
Result was .54

The more I test, the more faith I have in this tester! I believe this device will be widely used in the hobby here soon, making it much easier for people to test all types of copper with one single device, in a very accurate manor. It's great so far, I will continue to play with it, and share my findings. I also reached out to Hanna today to share yesterday's findings and see if I could get any more info from them (I'm not sure I will get anything out of them, as I'm sure they won't be forthcoming with information until they perform their own testing, which is totally understandable from a liability standpoint). I will keep you all posted!

UPDATE: We have discovered at least one strain of velvet that survives 1.75 PPM copper, we recommend increasing to 2.0PPM to eradicate it.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Following there also [emoji1533][emoji1477]

 

[Brew12]

1st test
1gallon RODI, 1.25ml syringe measured coppersafe to match dosing instructions on bottle. Result 2.99ppm

Just some background for those tuning in.
In an email response, Fritz stated that their recommended dose of 1.25ml/g (or 5ml per 4g) yields 1.16ppm copper.

Their website says this. I just checked to see if they had changes and I think they have. I'll have to see if I can dig up an old screen shot of what it used to say.

 

[blkhwkz]

Just some background for those tuning in.
In an email response, Fritz stated that their recommended dose of 1.25ml/g (or 5ml per 4g) yields 1.16ppm copper.

Their website says this. I just checked to see if they had changes and I think they have. I'll have to see if I can dig up an old screen shot of what it used to say.

I checked Internet Archive Wayback Machine and it shows the same info in the 2 times in 2016 and 2 times in 2017 it saved copies of their website.

 

[HotRocks]

Here is what I have found out today in reaching out to fritz. They have made no change, same concentration used for years. They checked my batch ID, and it is within their tolerances. He is saying that following dosing instructions should yield 1.5-2.0ppm. So yet it gets even more complicated.

 

[Brew12]

I checked Internet Archive Wayback Machine and it shows the same info in the 2 times in 2016 and 2 times in 2017 it saved copies of their website.

I forgot about that website. Thanks!

 

[Brew12]

Here is what I have found out today in reaching out to fritz. I will update as I get further responses. My messages in Black, Fritz responses in red for easier reading. He is saying that following dosing instructions should yield 1.5-2.0ppm. So yet it gets even more complicated. And NO WAY can you overdose 4X and have fish live!

Subject: Copper Safe Concentration Change

Message Body:
I hope this message finds you well. I am inquiring to see if one of two things may have happened. I use coppersafe and have successfully for quite some time. I have recently ran into an issue with the product. I have found my current bottle is much more potent than in the past. If dosed per instructions it is yielding a level of 2.99-3.03ppm, opposed to the proposed level of 1.16-1.17. I am just wondering if you all have intentionally changed the concentration, due to the fact that at least in the saltwater fish hobby world it is not quite to a therapeutic level? Of if maybe I have a bad batch? Many of the people that I share info with in the hobby have recently experienced the same thing. Please know that I am inquiring for the purpose of proper use of your product and medicating fish successfully. Here are the batch/exp info off my current bottle:

Batch #1717FID101
Exp: 6/20/19

Look forward to hearing from you!


Noce, Mike <[email protected]>
RE: Copper Safe Concentration Change
Hi Kyle, no nothing has changed with Coppersafe.


Can you tell me what test kit you are using?





Thanks


To: Noce, Mike
Subject: RE: Copper Safe Concentration Change



Mike,

Thank you for the quick reply!

I have used two methods of Testing (two to be sure, that it wasn’t a bad test).

Hanna Digital HR Copper Checker, and the API test kit. Both of which align.

The reason I am inquiring, is I have always used the same exact protocol when treating fish in the past. Syringe measuring during dosing, I do ramp up slower than Manf. Instructions. And then when I get to my therapeutic target, I test (in the past, always to find that I am exactly where I want to be). My last batch was unsuccessful due to the higher concentration, and I lost the fish.


The testing I have performed has all been with precise measuring. I have done the same test on other coppers for the hobby as well, cupramine, and Copper power, and I am yielding results exactly where expected.


This is why I suspected either a change in product concentration/bad bottle.


Noce, Mike <[email protected]>
RE: Copper Safe Concentration Change


Hi Kyle,





Are the tests you are using testing Total Copper? If so, with Coppersafe you should be seeing a total copper rangeat a range of 1.5 to 2ppm (depends on the kit). Coppersafe is chelated so the actual copper that is ready to react, Free Copper, is much lower. We've done toxicity tests on overdosing Coppersafe and have seen no mortality at even a 4X, of course some fish are more delicate than others.





I don't believe Cupramine and CopperPower are Chelated so thier Total Copper would be lower than Coppersafe.





We have received zero complaints about Coppersafe for over a year, but I will check the QC on that particular lot and get back with you.





Thanks,

For your info.... this is from an email exchange I had with them dating to June of last year.

 

[Brew12]

It was a separate email they told me that it was at 1.16. Still, makes no sense.

I was a bit shocked when they told me this. Just goes to show that as of June last year even they had confusion on their product.

 

[HotRocks]

For your info.... this is from an email exchange I had with them dating to June of last year.

Thanks, what a mess. I am going to order fish for Saturday delivery. Going copper power, with lots of API and Hanna Tests. As I don't even know what to make of all of this, HEAD SPINNING. I now Know why @Humblefish simple response is "I hate Copper" Prior to, I am also going to test more bottles of copper power to see if I get the same result bottle to bottle.

 

[4FordFamily]

The manuf response is ridiculous, it’s well documented that 3 PPM and higher copper is toxic to many fish. That comment about how fish can handle it appears to be both an admittance of either having no idea what’s going on, or attempting to dispel any liability. Perhaps both.

Copper power is chelated copper, further solidifying, to me at least, that this person and perhaps Fritz has absolutely no idea what they’re doing. That’s absolutely infuriating.

I also have a Sailfert test kit here Kyle. We can test two more bottles of coppersafe I have on my shelf.

 

[Fishfinder]

I killed my last group of fish. Used the known dosage that is used in the copper sticky. Assumed I can't read color very well (which is a problem for me). Killed my last fish quick.

 

[Brew12]

I killed my last group of fish. Used the known dosage that is used in the copper sticky. Assumed I can't read color very well (which is a problem for me). Killed my last fish quick.

I am incredibly sorry.

I hate that the information I have put out is now killing fish. :mad:

 

[cmcoker]

@HotRocks, have you run the hannah kit on some tank water spiked with copper? Just wondering if any of the organics and such would impact the results..
I was thinking of ordering the hannah last quarantine go round cause I hate the API kit. Will definitely look to pick one up on the next batch of fish, hopefully can source the next ones on the fish list soon.

Interesting stuff, thanks for getting the ball rolling on testing this checker out!