Copper treatment tank questions

[Smithrz]

Hey folks, gonna try to keep this short and direct. I believe I have some form of bacterial issue in my DT, I'm assuming it's Velvet, I lost one small Firefish yesterday, and the other fish look like they're on their way out... Started with tiny white spots on fins and body a couple of weeks ago, I assumed Ich at this stage but wasn't positive, as I felt the spots were too small ... it now has developed into chalky mucus coats (2 Clowns, 1 Firefish, and 1 Royal Gramma). They have all been displaying flashing, sand rubbing, and rock rubbing behaviour for a couple of weeks also, but its intensified in the last 48 hours resulting in 1 death. The Royal Gramma looks in bad shape, with some damage to his fins and chalky coat, the clowns just look chalky now, the other Fire fish seems okay for now, but treating it anyway.

Current signs/symptoms:
2x Clownfish Tiny white spots, that come and go every 48 hours or so, are displaying tilted swimming at times, and have chalky white film, no other symptoms, still feeding.
1x Royal Gramma Tiny white spots, that come and go every 48 hours or so, has been scratching against the sand and rocks for 10 days maybe, has a chalky film over his body, and damaged rear fins, it has still been feeding up until today.
1x Fire fish no symptoms at all, seems totally fine.
1x Fire fish (dead) was rapidly breathing yesterday, and lethargic, died over night (I gave him a fresh water bath, but was too late)

I have removed all the fish from my DT and set up a 20ltr QT in another room, and I gave all fish a 5min fresh water bath at the temp they're used to, which I'm planning on lowering the salinity to hyposality levels over the next week, and it's also being treated with copper based medication (NT Labs Marine Anti-Parasite; targets Cryptocaryon, Oodinium and other protozoan parasites). I have the following questions for each tank:

Quarantine tank (QT):
1a. I'm assuming I'll need to do water changes to keep on top of the ammonia, will this reduce the copper levels when I do that? The medication I'm using states to add 0.5ml every day for 11 days. So I'm unsure if that every time I do a change, I'm removing too much of the copper? So looking for clarity there. Instructions don't say anything about water change effects.
1b. Should I simply stop the copper treatment at 11 days, or continue it for longer? I guess if I stop, then continue with water changes, I'll slowly dilute the copper back out to get them ready for going back to the DT?

Display tank (DT):
2a. I have the followinginverts still in there (1 cleaner shrimp, 1 blood-red shrimp, 5 small hermits, 1 small emerald crab, 4 nassarius snails, and 2 Konch snails). My assumption is to simply maintain the DT as normal, and just reduce feeding a little?
2b. I installed a UV Steriliser yesterday in the sump (10w, with quartz sleeve and bulb, by Deltec, pump is on the lowest speed possible to target fish parasites), with this running, would a 45 day fallow period suffice? I see a lot of mixed discussion around 45 days vs 76 days.
2c. I have just turned the lights off for now, any issue with keeping the light off? My thinking is it will help with algae from taking hold... but the reason I ask is because I' wondering if that might starve the inverts?
2d. I'm currently treating the DT with Polyp-lab Medic, should I just stop with that now? Any value in finishing the course? I'm about 10 days into the 20 day course (my DT has no corals, just FYI).

Thanks in advance for any/all advice, I've never done all this before, I'm still new to the hobby; just trying my best to do right by the fish at this point! I thought this would be a nice relaxing hobby

 

[sc50964]

Sounds more like

Brooklynella​

Need to use sachem metroplex for fish. Not copper

​

 

[Smithrz]

Sounds more like

Brooklynella​

Need to use sachem metroplex for fish. Not copper

​

I wondered that too, but my LFS said Brookynella was a Clownfish disease, and my Gramma is the worst looking fish. Interestingly, the fish that died yesterday wasn't showing any signs of disease other than slight sand rubbing, which I only saw a few times. But no chalky coat or anything, he just went rapidly downhill yesterday.

Also, it doesn't seem like we can get Sachem Metroplex for fish in the UK :/

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Accurate diagnosis is key here. I see three potential diagnoses, and each has a different treatment. It could be velvet, Brooklynella or flukes. Trouble is, it could also be a combination of those issues.

Can you post a video of the fish?

Key symptoms of each disease:

Velvet - rapid breathing, not eating and death comes quickly
Brooklynella - stilted swimming, not eating, white film on body
Flukes - scratching/flashing over week's time, gradually getting worse. Fish still feed up until a day or two before they die.

I've not used the NT Labs Marine Anti-Parasite product, but its two constituents are copper and formalin. Trouble is, copper is more stable in solution than formalin is. If you dose for the proper formalin dose, you get too much copper and if you dose for copper, you don't get enough formalin...it's a lose/lose situation. That said, formalin works against Brooklynella, so there may be some benefit in this case.

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hey folks, gonna try to keep this short and direct. I believe I have some form of bacterial issue in my DT, I'm assuming it's Velvet, I lost one small Firefish yesterday, and the other fish look like they're on their way out... they have chalky mucus coats (2 Clowns, 1 Firefish, and 1 Royal Gramma). They have all been displaying flashing, sand rubbing, and rock rubbing behaviour for a couple of weeks also, but its intensified in the last 48 hours resulting in 1 death. The Royal Gramma looks in bad shape, with some damage to his fins, the clowns just look chalky, the other Fire fish seems okay for now, but treating it anyway.

I have removed all the fish from my DT and set up a 20ltr QT in another room, and I gave all 4 fish a 5min fresh water bath at the temp they're used to, which I'm planning on lowering the salinity to hyposality levels over the next week, and it's also being treated with copper based medication (NT Labs Marine Anti-Parasite; targets Cryptocaryon, Oodinium and other protozoan parasites). I have the following questions for each tank:

Quarantine tank (QT):
1a. I'm assuming I'll need to do water changes to keep on top of the ammonia, will this reduce the copper levels when I do that? The medication I'm using states to add 0.5ml every day for 11 days. So I'm unsure if that every time I do a change, I'm removing too much of the copper? So looking for clarity there. Instructions don't say anything about water change effects.
1b. Should I simply stop the copper treatment at 11 days, or continue it for longer? I guess if I stop, then continue with water changes, I'll slowly dilute the copper back out to get them ready for going back to the DT?

Display tank (DT):
2a. I have the followinginverts still in there (1 cleaner shrimp, 1 blood-red shrimp, 5 small hermits, 1 small emerald crab, 4 nassarius snails, and 2 Konch snails). My assumption is to simply maintain the DT as normal, and just reduce feeding a little?
2b. I installed a UV Steriliser yesterday in the sump (10w, with quartz sleeve and bulb, by Deltec, pump is on the lowest speed possible to target fish parasites), with this running, would a 45 day fallow period suffice? I see a lot of mixed discussion around 45 days vs 76 days.
2c. I have just turned the lights off for now, any issue with keeping the light off? My thinking is it will help with algae from taking hold... but the reason I ask is because I' wondering if that might starve the inverts?
2d. I'm currently treating the DT with Polyp-lab Medic, should I just stop with that now? Any value in finishing the course? I'm about 10 days into the 20 day course (my DT has no corals, just FYI).

Thanks in advance for any/all advice, I've never done all this before, I'm still new to the hobby; just trying my best to do right by the fish at this point! I thought this would be a nice relaxing hobby

Polyp lab medics rarely works as its Peroxide salt and firefish rarely get brook. Need pics and video to best determine what it may be.
UV unit will address what is free floating and Not what is existing already. These fish are also susceptible to flukes and the rubbing you mention would be related to flukes as some signs are Darting, scratching, yawning, loss of appetite, rapid breathing and lethargic behavior

 

[Smithrz]

Thanks @Jay Hemdal it seems that maybe different fish have different infections based on what you have written here.

2x Clownfish Tiny white spots, that come and go every 48 hours or so, are displaying tilted swimming at times, and have chalky white film, no other symptoms, still feeding.
1x Royal Gramma Tiny white spots, that come and go every 48 hours or so, has been scratching against the sand and rocks for 10 days maybe, has a chalky film over his body, and damaged rear fins, it has still been feeding up until today.
1x Fire fish no symptoms at all, seems totally fine.
1x Fire fish (dead) was rapidly breathing yesterday, and lethargic, died over night (I gave him a fresh water bath, but was too late)

I'd get you a video/pics but it would be pointless as you can't really see anything as I have no light for the QT tank. Appreciate all of the advice on diagnosis people, but still hoping for some advice on the questions in the OP, heh.

 

[Smithrz]

Polyp lab medics rarely works as its Peroxide salt and firefish rarely get brook. Need pics and video to best determine what it may be.
UV unit will address what is free floating and Not what is existing already. These fish are also susceptible to flukes and the rubbing you mention would be related to flukes as some signs are Darting, scratching, yawning, loss of appetite, rapid breathing and lethargic behavior

With such mixed symptoms, it seems like it could be a combination of all, and the medication I'm using treats both as stated by Jay, albeit a danged if I do/don't situation :/

What are the chances that every fish I purchased came with different diseases? or is it that it was brought on by stress maybe? So frustrating.

 

[vetteguy53081]

With such mixed symptoms, it seems like it could be a combination of all, and the medication I'm using treats both as stated by Jay, albeit a danged if I do/don't situation :/

What are the chances that every fish I purchased came with different diseases? or is it that it was brought on by stress maybe? So frustrating.

Fish could have come with something and while there are cases of more than one symptom, it needs to be pinpointed
I suspect flukes best treated with Prazipro

 

[Smithrz]

Fish could have come with something and while there are cases of more than one symptom, it needs to be pinpointed
I suspect flukes best treated with Prazipro

Okay, I've ordered some equivalent treatment I can get in the UK. Can I continue to treat with my copper treatment at the same time? I feel like the fish all have different diseases.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Okay, I've ordered some equivalent treatment I can get in the UK. Can I continue to treat with my copper treatment at the same time? I feel like the fish all have different diseases.

For UK, Sera Tremazole

 

[Smithrz]

Update 20 hours after QT started:

fish are all still alive, but not looking good.

Royal Gramma is covered in white spots and still just laying on it's side in the corner of the tank, it's been lying there since I put it in the tank; looks like it's struggling to breathe now.

Smaller clownfish is also covered in spots and chalky patchiness

Firefish's tail fin is badly damaged, I think maybe from being nicked at.

Bigger clownfish seems okay at the moment. Her and the Fire fish are still feeding, but the smaller clown and gramma have stopped feeding now.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Update 20 hours after QT started:

fish are all still alive, but not looking good.

Royal Gramma is covered in white spots and still just laying on it's side in the corner of the tank, it's been lying there since I put it in the tank; looks like it's struggling to breathe now.

Smaller clownfish is also covered in spots and chalky patchiness

Firefish's tail fin is badly damaged, I think maybe from being nicked at.

Bigger clownfish seems okay at the moment. Her and the Fire fish are still feeding, but the smaller clown and gramma have stopped feeding now.

What are you treating with?

A video could be REALLY helpful.....


Jay

 

[Smithrz]

What are you treating with?

A video could be REALLY helpful.....


Jay

Hey Jay, nothing additional to what I said in my OP: (NT Labs Marine Anti-Parasite; targets Cryptocaryon, Oodinium and other protozoan parasites), and I did a 5min fresh water bath before treatment. I've ordered the same brands marine teatment for Flukes/Brooklynella, but it's not going to be here for a few days (my local LFS is small and they didn't have what I needed in stock). I'll record a video for you, but might be hard to see anything.

 

[Smithrz]

What are you treating with?

A video could be REALLY helpful.....


Jay

Here's a video for you to take a look at, I would say ... whatever you see, imagine it worse than it looks in reality.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Here's a video for you to take a look at, I would say ... whatever you see, imagine it worse than it looks in reality.

Thanks, the video helps me. The one clownfish does seem to have a minor case of Brooklynella, but it isn't swimming "stiffly" like they do when it gets worse. To me, that means either the disease is just ramping up, or the treatments that you've tried have been partially beneficial. The tail on the firefish is bothersome - it is very shredded. Can you make a tank divider?

I would continue with the NT Labs product and then treat for flukes once you get that medication (I can't tell you though, if those medications would be compatible).

Jay

 

[Smithrz]

Thanks, the video helps me. The one clownfish does seem to have a minor case of Brooklynella, but it isn't swimming "stiffly" like they do when it gets worse. To me, that means either the disease is just ramping up, or the treatments that you've tried have been partially beneficial. The tail on the firefish is bothersome - it is very shredded. Can you make a tank divider?

I would continue with the NT Labs product and then treat for flukes once you get that medication (I can't tell you though, if those medications would be compatible).

Jay

Hmmm. I have a hang on the side acclimation box, I suppose I could put that in the QT with the firefish in it. Would have to remove the pvc pipe though.

 

[Smithrz]

Done. I also added an air stone to the QT

 

[Smithrz]

Just sharing an update.

The copper treatment seemed to buy the fish some time, and I got the Fluke/Brooklynella treatment started yesterday. Within 24 hours, the fish look MUCH better, I can hardly see the chalky coat on them at all now, so fingers crossed they continue.

Fire fish tail fin is also growing back nicely since I segregated it from the clowns. Thanks again for the advice, folks.