Conversation with Fritz rep about salt

[FiddlersReef]

So I've been kicking around the idea of switching from TM Pro Reef salt, to Fritz blue box salt. It says it has a little higher alk, which might save me some dosing, and the salt is cheaper too.

And... I'm not trying to start a holy war on salt. I know people use every kind of salt, and for every person that hates one, other people use it and love it. So that isn't my goal. I'm sure either would work to one degree or another.

What happend was, I got into a chat with a Fritz rep, because I was curious about a statement Tropic Marin makes on their site that their salt:

- Contains all major- and minor elements in the exact proportions found in tropical sea water.
- The 70 trace elements are completely soluble due to the use of the mixed-crystal method.

Whereas the Fritz site is more vague. So I just want to know, if I were to switch to Fritz, would I be losing out on those trace elements, would they recommend dosing something to cover the gap, etc., or do they already include the same thing.

Her response was:

We do not add much as far as trace elements due to the difficulty in getting a dry salt blend to beuniform. We do have Boron, Iodine, Potassium, Molybdenum, Sulfur, and Strontium in the mix.

I can't say anything about their product or process since I don't know how it is manufactured. Ours does not claim to have anything other than what I mentioned before.

Really 70 elements is everything on the periodic table that isn't manmade, or gaseous. That seemslike a stretch in my opinion. Not all of that is even necessary

More doesn't always equal better. Not even ICP testing will measure 70 elements. So I don't knowhow it is even monitored if they are saying all of that is there.

Otherwise I think both salts are good, you can expect good results from either.

So I guess that left me with the impression that I might stand to lose a lot, and since my tank is doing really well I shouldn't take the chance. (I know, I know, so why did I even consider it? I don't know. Just because. I'm just in the research stage. )

I did eventually find this much more specific list on the TM site itself:

Major Elements:

Calcium; Chlorine; Magnesium; Potassium; Sodium; Sulfur.

Trace Elements:

Aluminium; Antimony; Arsenic; Barium; Beryllium; Bismuth; Boron; Bromine; Cadmium; Caesium; Carbon; Cerium; Chromium; Cobalt; Copper; Dysprosium; Erbium; Europium; Fluorine; Gadolinium; Gallium; Germanium; Gold; Hafnium; Holmium; Indium; Iodine; Iridium; Iron; Lanthanum; Lead; Lithium; Lutetium; Manganese; Mercury; Molybdenum; Neodymium; Nickel; Niobium; Nitrogen; Osmium; Palladium; Platinum; Praseodymium; Rhenium; Rhodium; Rubidium; Ruthenium; Samarium; Scandium; Selenium; Silicon; Silver; Strontium; Tantalum; Tellurium; Terbium; Thallium; Thorium; Thulium; Tin; Titanium; Tungsten; Vanadium; Ytterbium; Yttrium; Zinc; Zirconium.

So, I'm just curious about the idea of all the trace elements and whether she may be right or wrong that it may not be needed or possible. Any thoughts?

 

[ZoWhat]

Go with Fritz blue box and dose TM All For Reef.... then you're good on all elements

You can get into TM A- and K+ dosing as well.


.

 

[NanoSteam]

I'm using Fritz blue box with dosing TM all for reef. Corals seem happy. Only thing is at 1.026, magnesium and calcium run a little on the high end if that matters to you. Alk at 9, Ca at 480, and Mag at 1500 for me.

 

[Sean Clark]

So I've been kicking around the idea of switching from TM Pro Reef salt, to Fritz blue box salt. It says it has a little higher alk, which might save me some dosing, and the salt is cheaper too.

And... I'm not trying to start a holy war on salt. I know people use every kind of salt, and for every person that hates one, other people use it and love it. So that isn't my goal. I'm sure either would work to one degree or another.

What happend was, I got into a chat with a Fritz rep, because I was curious about a statement Tropic Marin makes on their site that their salt:

- Contains all major- and minor elements in the exact proportions found in tropical sea water.
- The 70 trace elements are completely soluble due to the use of the mixed-crystal method.

Whereas the Fritz site is more vague. So I just want to know, if I were to switch to Fritz, would I be losing out on those trace elements, would they recommend dosing something to cover the gap, etc., or do they already include the same thing.

Her response was:

We do not add much as far as trace elements due to the difficulty in getting a dry salt blend to beuniform. We do have Boron, Iodine, Potassium, Molybdenum, Sulfur, and Strontium in the mix.

I can't say anything about their product or process since I don't know how it is manufactured. Ours does not claim to have anything other than what I mentioned before.

Really 70 elements is everything on the periodic table that isn't manmade, or gaseous. That seemslike a stretch in my opinion. Not all of that is even necessary

More doesn't always equal better. Not even ICP testing will measure 70 elements. So I don't knowhow it is even monitored if they are saying all of that is there.

Otherwise I think both salts are good, you can expect good results from either.

So I guess that left me with the impression that I might stand to lose a lot, and since my tank is doing really well I shouldn't take the chance. (I know, I know, so why did I even consider it? I don't know. Just because. I'm just in the research stage. )

I did eventually find this much more specific list on the TM site itself:

Major Elements:

Calcium; Chlorine; Magnesium; Potassium; Sodium; Sulfur.

Trace Elements:

Aluminium; Antimony; Arsenic; Barium; Beryllium; Bismuth; Boron; Bromine; Cadmium; Caesium; Carbon; Cerium; Chromium; Cobalt; Copper; Dysprosium; Erbium; Europium; Fluorine; Gadolinium; Gallium; Germanium; Gold; Hafnium; Holmium; Indium; Iodine; Iridium; Iron; Lanthanum; Lead; Lithium; Lutetium; Manganese; Mercury; Molybdenum; Neodymium; Nickel; Niobium; Nitrogen; Osmium; Palladium; Platinum; Praseodymium; Rhenium; Rhodium; Rubidium; Ruthenium; Samarium; Scandium; Selenium; Silicon; Silver; Strontium; Tantalum; Tellurium; Terbium; Thallium; Thorium; Thulium; Tin; Titanium; Tungsten; Vanadium; Ytterbium; Yttrium; Zinc; Zirconium.

So, I'm just curious about the idea of all the trace elements and whether she may be right or wrong that it may not be needed or possible. Any thoughts?

What, no Uranium?

Lots of people have lots of success with lots of salts. You shouldn't have any issues using one over another. It's all marketing. Some want higher levels of x y or z, so they choose the salt that provides that. Sounds like you want all of the Aluminum, Lead, and Mercury that TM is promising you so stick with that.

 

[aSaltyKlown]

This was my main takeaway.
-"70 elements is everything on the periodic table that isn't manmade, or gaseous. That seems like a stretch in my opinion. Not all of that is even necessary"
- "Not even ICP testing will measure 70 elements. So I don't know how it is even monitored" There are some that will, but most hobby-grade ones test about 40.

It does seem like a bit of marketing on TM's side. Many folks here with some of the nicest tanks run regular IO.

 

[X-37B]

Yea just pick a salt and use it. They all work. I have used the $ salts and am back to regular IO.
I see no difference in my systems.
I also dose trace elements and that seems to work well for alot of people.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Her response was:

We do not add much as far as trace elements due to the difficulty in getting a dry salt blend to beuniform. We do have Boron, Iodine, Potassium, Molybdenum, Sulfur, and Strontium in the mix.

I think it most likely (hopefully) he doesn't understand the product. Half of what he mentioned are not trace elements at all, and there are many critical trace elements. There's got to be way more than just those. lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This was my main takeaway.
-"70 elements is everything on the periodic table that isn't manmade, or gaseous. That seems like a stretch in my opinion. Not all of that is even necessary"
- "Not even ICP testing will measure 70 elements. So I don't know how it is even monitored" There are some that will, but most hobby-grade ones test about 40.

It does seem like a bit of marketing on TM's side. Many folks here with some of the nicest tanks run regular IO.

Regular IO has lots and lots of trace elements.

The criticism leveled against it in the past was it had too much (Ron Shimek was the leader of that idea), not that it had too little or too few.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here's some of Fritz's own trace element testing of their salt mix:. Lots more trac elements than those listed above.

https://fritzaquatics.com/assets/files/uploads/ICP_TES.pdf

 

[Sean Clark]

Here's some of Fritz's own trace element testing of their salt mix:. Lots more trac elements than those listed above.

https://fritzaquatics.com/assets/files/uploads/ICP_TES.pdf

That is fantastic info. I did not know that Fritz did multiple ICP tests from multiple testing companies.

 

[FiddlersReef]

Here's some of Fritz's own trace element testing of their salt mix:. Lots more trac elements than those listed above.

https://fritzaquatics.com/assets/files/uploads/ICP_TES.pdf

Wow, thanks for finding that. So maybe I could feel comfortable trying their salt as a direct replacement for TM at some point, and all I'd need to do is continue dosing calcium and alk like I do now (after figuring out what the right dose would be again).

 

[DothanReefer]

Here's some of Fritz's own trace element testing of their salt mix:. Lots more trac elements than those listed above.

https://fritzaquatics.com/assets/files/uploads/ICP_TES.pdf

This is an incredible resource imo, not just for Fritz users, but for anyone wanting to know/learn more about their ICP testing process/results. Wow. Thanks so much for sharing!!! Should be pinned somewhere on R2R imho!!

 

[Clownfishy]

I am not sure the Fritz salt does have all the required elements in the quantities of other salt. I have just completed 2 ICP tests of my aquarium which has been using their salt for about 5 months.
After 5 months using their salt and performing a 20% water change weekly, I sent away my first ICP test and it seemed very low on a number of elements -
https://lab.faunamarin.de/de/share/analysis/20221

So I did 5 x 45% water changes over 7 days as I assumed my corals had been using these elements up quicker than my normal 20% a week regular water changes. I left it a week after the 45% water changes and then sent off for another ICP test and not much improved -
https://lab.faunamarin.de/de/share/analysis/21527

After that amount of water changes, I would assume some of the missing elements from the first ICP would have increased from the water changes. For information, I stopped dosing NOPOX after the water changes and that is why you will see my phosphate increase.

Due to an ongoing problem keeping lps corals alive, I am going to swap out the Fritz salt with Red Sea salt (blue bucket), perform a number of water changes and see if that solves my lps die off problem (god knows, I have tried everything else with not luck). If so, I will send off another ICP test to compare.

Just my thoughts.

 

[FiddlersReef]

I am not sure the Fritz salt does have all the required elements in the quantities of other salt. I have just completed 2 ICP tests of my aquarium which has been using their salt for about 5 months.
After 5 months using their salt and performing a 20% water change weekly, I sent away my first ICP test and it seemed very low on a number of elements -
https://lab.faunamarin.de/de/share/analysis/20221

So I did 5 x 45% water changes over 7 days as I assumed my corals had been using these elements up quicker than my normal 20% a week regular water changes. I left it a week after the 45% water changes and then sent off for another ICP test and not much improved -
https://lab.faunamarin.de/de/share/analysis/21527

After that amount of water changes, I would assume some of the missing elements from the first ICP would have increased from the water changes. For information, I stopped dosing NOPOX after the water changes and that is why you will see my phosphate increase.

Due to an ongoing problem keeping lps corals alive, I am going to swap out the Fritz salt with Red Sea salt (blue bucket), perform a number of water changes and see if that solves my lps die off problem (god knows, I have tried everything else with not luck). If so, I will send off another ICP test to compare.

Just my thoughts.

I’ll be interested to hear the results of that.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am not sure the Fritz salt does have all the required elements in the quantities of other salt. I have just completed 2 ICP tests of my aquarium which has been using their salt for about 5 months.
After 5 months using their salt and performing a 20% water change weekly, I sent away my first ICP test and it seemed very low on a number of elements -
https://lab.faunamarin.de/de/share/analysis/20221

So I did 5 x 45% water changes over 7 days as I assumed my corals had been using these elements up quicker than my normal 20% a week regular water changes. I left it a week after the 45% water changes and then sent off for another ICP test and not much improved -
https://lab.faunamarin.de/de/share/analysis/21527

After that amount of water changes, I would assume some of the missing elements from the first ICP would have increased from the water changes. For information, I stopped dosing NOPOX after the water changes and that is why you will see my phosphate increase.

Due to an ongoing problem keeping lps corals alive, I am going to swap out the Fritz salt with Red Sea salt (blue bucket), perform a number of water changes and see if that solves my lps die off problem (god knows, I have tried everything else with not luck). If so, I will send off another ICP test to compare.

Just my thoughts.

I think you are perhaps making an inappropriate extrapolation from an ICP result in the tank to reflect on the nature of the salt mix.

Water changes with a salt mix are often insufficient to maintain detectable levels of many trace elements since they deplete so fast. That doesn't necessarily mean they are insufficient for growth of corals, but it can mean the salt mix is fine even if you see nothing in the tank.

Salt mixes are not designed to offset consumption. they are designed to try to match natural seawater.

 

[Clownfishy]

I think you are perhaps making an inappropriate extrapolation from an ICP result in the tank to reflect on the nature of the salt mix.

Water changes with a salt mix are often insufficient to maintain detectable levels of many trace elements since they deplete so fast. That doesn't necessarily mean they are insufficient for growth of corals, but it can mean the salt mix is fine even if you see nothing in the tank.

Salt mixes are not designed to offset consumption. they are designed to try to match natural seawater.

Many thanks for this information. I guess the bit I am struggling with is that the first ICP test came back indicating very low levels of some trace elements. As I had not had an ICP test since starting this tank with this new salt and the tank had been running near on 5 months, I can see the logic that these elements would have been consumed. Having said that, previous ICP tests I have had on other tanks using different salts, did not show such a drop in trace elements. Having performed such massive water changes 5 X 45%, I would have assumed, the trace elements would have been added back into the aquarium water and would not have been taken up in the week between the water changes and sending off a sample of water to be tested.
Now there are a lot of assumptions in what I have said above and my knowledge does not even register anywhere compared to yours so I am probably added 2 + 2 and making 60. I guess because I have never had an ICP test come back with such low levels of some trace elements, I am a little concerned with this salt.
An easy way to prove if the salt is lacking in elements or the corals are absorbing them is to switch salt back to a salt I have used before to see if that ICP test shows any difference. I will do this over the coming weeks and then send off another test.

Thanks for your your help in this as I feel I am going down many rabbit holes trying to work out why all my LPS corals are dying. It is always good recieving a comment from you as your knowledge puts us all back on track.

Have a great weekend.

 

[Clownfishy]

I’ll be interested to hear the results of that.

I will report back in a few weeks once I have my new salt, performed several large water changes and then sent off for another ICP test.
Will go back to using either H2Ocean Classic or try Red Sea Salt.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Now there are a lot of assumptions in what I have said above and my knowledge does not even register anywhere compared to yours so I am probably added 2 + 2 and making 60. I guess because I have never had an ICP test come back with such low levels of some trace elements, I am a little concerned with this salt.

It's not the salt, necessarily. It's the assumption that water changes with normal trace element levels will maintain detectable trace elements in a reef tank.

The reason people dose trace elements even when doing water changes is water changes do not keep up, not because the salt mixes lack the necessary trace elements to make an appropriate batch of salt.

Water changes certainly did not keep all trace elements detectable in my tank using an appropriate salt mix (normal IO).

Even dosing iron I did not detect iron.

Some elements just deplete very fast.