Controlling Nitrates with no PO4

[immo]

I'm trying to figure out the balance in my tank. It's a relatively young tank (set up the beginning of July). I had 0.00 po4 until I started dosing. My nitrates will run rampant without some sort of nutrient export. I was previously running both a fuge, and carbon dosing with DIY nopox. I have to dose what seems to me to be an exorbitant amount of po4 daily in order to keep it detectable. I pulled my chaeto because I was struggling with cyano so badly in the fuge, and I wasn't really seeing much growth in it either (I was also dosing chaeto gro). Since pulling my chaeto, I have had to reduce my po4 dosing because it was getting away too (0.12 ppm). I was previously dosing 7.5ml of nopox (split between two doses, one at 11 AM, and another at 4 PM), and have upped that to 8.0ml split the same way. My tank is a reefer 250, and the way that I'm understanding the dosing chart, I'm actually probably over the recommended dose at 8.0ml, but my nitrates are still climbing. I'm also battling with what I believe is GHA on the sand only, no algae on the rocks whatsoever. There's no shortage of a clean up crew in the tank, including cerith, margarita, red banded trochus, chestnut, and hermits. What is the best way for me to handle this? My parameters are currently no3 - 14.1 ppm, and po4 0.02-0.1 (still adjusting the dose to level it out hopefully about 0.02 - 0.05).

 

[Reefahholic]

I'm trying to figure out the balance in my tank. It's a relatively young tank (set up the beginning of July). I had 0.00 po4 until I started dosing. My nitrates will run rampant without some sort of nutrient export. I was previously running both a fuge, and carbon dosing with DIY nopox. I have to dose what seems to me to be an exorbitant amount of po4 daily in order to keep it detectable. I pulled my chaeto because I was struggling with cyano so badly in the fuge, and I wasn't really seeing much growth in it either (I was also dosing chaeto gro). Since pulling my chaeto, I have had to reduce my po4 dosing because it was getting away too (0.12 ppm). I was previously dosing 7.5ml of nopox (split between two doses, one at 11 AM, and another at 4 PM), and have upped that to 8.0ml split the same way. My tank is a reefer 250, and the way that I'm understanding the dosing chart, I'm actually probably over the recommended dose at 8.0ml, but my nitrates are still climbing. I'm also battling with what I believe is GHA on the sand only, no algae on the rocks whatsoever. There's no shortage of a clean up crew in the tank, including cerith, margarita, red banded trochus, chestnut, and hermits. What is the best way for me to handle this? My parameters are currently no3 - 14.1 ppm, and po4 0.02-0.1 (still adjusting the dose to level it out hopefully about 0.02 - 0.05).

Stop the NoPOX for now. Focus on PO4. Get it up to 0.14 to be at 100:1 ratio with NO3.

Keep the macro’s out. Tank is young and will be unpredictable so the less variables the better.

Run your skimmer, feed normally (not excessively), and dose nutrients back when you need them.

Only raise NO3 by 1 ppm daily to be safe, and PO4 by .02 ppm daily. Always know your dose “in ppm’s” before you dose.

No Amino’s or Vitamins early on…it only feeds the bad guys (Cyano, Dino’s, etc.), and complicates things more while the system is still young and trying to mature and stabilize.

Don’t be alarmed by the algae. The tank is very young and this is normal. Believe it or not algae can thrive extremely well in low or depleted phosphate environments. So make sure you have a good range in there for best results (.06-0.15 ppm). If you really want to jack the system up when it’s young, let the PO4 bottom out or keep it really low. IMO it’s better to run higher, but not over 0.2 ppm. As long as NO3 is in 100:1 ratio, you won’t have many problems. You’ll see the typical algae bloom usually from about the 3-4 month to about 6-8 months, and then it will start to die out as long as your PO4 is not super low or super high.

Best of luck.

 

[immo]

Stop the NoPOX for now. Focus on PO4. Get it up to 0.14 to be at 100:1 ratio with NO3.

Keep the macro’s out. Tank is young and will be unpredictable so the less variables the better.

Run your skimmer, feed normally (not excessively), and dose nutrients back when you need them.

Only raise NO3 by 1 ppm daily to be safe, and PO4 by .02 ppm daily. Always know your dose “in ppm’s” before you dose.

No Amino’s or Vitamins early on…it only feeds the bad guys (Cyano, Dino’s, etc.), and complicates things more while the system is still young and trying to mature and stabilize.

Don’t be alarmed by the algae. The tank is very young and this is normal. Believe it or not algae can thrive extremely well in low or depleted phosphate environments. So make sure you have a good range in there for best results (.06-0.15 ppm). If you really want to jack the system up when it’s young, let the PO4 bottom out or keep it really low. IMO it’s better to run higher, but not over 0.2 ppm. As long as NO3 is in 100:1 ratio, you won’t have many problems. You’ll see the typical algae bloom usually from about the 3-4 month to about 6-8 months, and then it will start to die out as long as your PO4 is not super low or super high.

Best of luck.

If I stop carbon dosing my nitrates rise by 5+ ppm per day. I only dose po4, and I did have it at 100:1 for a day or so and all the algae was taking off. What I don’t understand I guess is I don’t feed very heavy. Like a half a cube every 2-3 days with 2 clowns, a gramma, cardinal, and a small to mini tang. Since I pulled the chaeto I’ve noticed a faster increase in nitrates even with slightly increasing my nopox dosage.

 

[jda]

You need to let your tank develop an ecosystem before you start trying to change it. It can take six months to a year if you leave it alone for it to get settled - since you have been messing with it, the past time does not count.

If you want to have a fuge as part of your ecosystem, then leave the chaeto in there.

The tank can develop methods to handle no3 if you set it up right and allow it to work - sand, good rock will develop anoxic areas where bacteria use the oxygen on no3 and turn it into N gas thus actually completing the nitrogen cycle.

Stop dosing everything and let it run for a while. Have a loved one hide your test kits for a few months.

In the mean time, read up on the difference between fuel/energy and building blocks. Then, which form of which are getting used and which are waste products. For example, no3 and po4 are not food - they are waste products. Corals need nitrogen and phosphorous, but they are likely getting nitrogen from ammonia and most corals cannot use nitrate for nitrogen - those corals that can use nitrate for nitrogen have to use a lot of energy to convert it back to nitrate. Macro algae can use nitrate directly. There is nothing in your tank that NEEDS nitrate. The po4 that you test for is only one form and likely the least preferred form of phosphorous. Carbon/sugar from the zoox and lights is what fuels your coral and gives them energy. Like read the posts from the smart folks, or some real science - don't believe some thumb suckers on message boards or facebook who post "feed your corals, dose nitrate and phosphate" since this is not even close to true.

 

[immo]

You need to let your tank develop an ecosystem before you start trying to change it. It can take six months to a year if you leave it alone for it to get settled - since you have been messing with it, the past time does not count.

If you want to have a fuge as part of your ecosystem, then leave the chaeto in there.

The tank can develop methods to handle no3 if you set it up right and allow it to work - sand, good rock will develop anoxic areas where bacteria use the oxygen on no3 and turn it into N gas thus actually completing the nitrogen cycle.

Stop dosing everything and let it run for a while. Have a loved one hide your test kits for a few months.

In the mean time, read up on the difference between fuel/energy and building blocks. Then, which form of which are getting used and which are waste products. For example, no3 and po4 are not food - they are waste products. Corals need nitrogen and phosphorous, but they are likely getting nitrogen from ammonia and most corals cannot use nitrate for nitrogen - those corals that can use nitrate for nitrogen have to use a lot of energy to convert it back to nitrate. Macro algae can use nitrate directly. There is nothing in your tank that NEEDS nitrate. The po4 that you test for is only one form and likely the least preferred form of phosphorous. Carbon/sugar from the zoox and lights is what fuels your coral and gives them energy. Like read the posts from the smart folks, or some real science - don't believe some thumb suckers on message boards or facebook who post "feed your corals, dose nitrate and phosphate" since this is not even close to true.

So, if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, I should stop dosing po4, and nopox. Even though my po4 will zero out? Should I not use any form of nutrient export, and not test? I do not mean to sound disrespectful if it comes off that way, I just am not sure that I understand exactly what you're saying. Should I let my nitrates go up until they level out? I've already been up to like 50 ppm. 30% water changes weekly to control nutrients just isn't feasible for me, which is why I've been carbon dosing.

 

[jda]

First, your po4 will not bottom out. The aragonite binds to equilibrium with the tank water, so it cannot strip it clean. Even a few parts per billion of just orthophosphate is not a problem and there are many other types of usable phosphorous like metaphosphate, phosphorous bound to organics, etc. that you cannot test for that things can use.

Your tank is going to need to go through the processes of the actual cycle before it stabilizes. The cycle is not just getting enough bacteria from a bottle of Dr Tims to allow for a few fish, it develops an ecosystem that eventually turn no3 into N gas. It cannot do this if you interfere.

There could be a day when you might want to worry about waste products like no3 and po4, but that time is not now. The tank needs them so that it develops the next part of the REAL cycle.

I know that this can be different with all of the info out there about testing this, adding that, etc. but take a look at those peoples tanks - they either suck at the hobby, or the have established tanks way past where yours is. You don't want to be either of these. The third group advocating testing and chemicals are the folks who sell stuff.

Put your test kits away until 2024. Feed your fish, do your normal maintenance (if you do) and let the tank do it's thing. It is bound to get ugly. If you started with dry/dead rock, it kinda has to.

 

[Pistondog]

Yes stop dosing. Run your chaeto, feed some reef roids a couple of times a week to raise po4.
Target 0.1 ppm po4, less than 30 ppm nitrate.
Good luck.

 

[jda]

Your po4 is going to start to rise soon enough as the aragonite binds it. Since there is little chance that you don't have enough phosphorous now, don't be in a rush to add more. One day, you will hate phosphate and be looking to lower it, most likely.

The bottom line is that at least until your tank has figured out what it is going to be, everything that you do to interfere will not help at all... just push back the tank finding it's ecosystem.

 

[immo]

How am I supposed to stay below 30 ppm with no carbon dosing? My Chaeto would not do it alone which is what led to carbon dosing.

 

[jda]

Check out my third paragraph on post number four and read about the actual nitrogen cycle. Nature is a cool thing if you give it the tools (undisturbed sand and good rock) and let it work.