Clownfish skimmer deaths

[pletlibo]

Hey Guys. I’m a brand new reefer who just set up his first system with a 75 gallon display and 30 gallon sump. I’m using marine depots DL-800 skimmer box in my display tank. Anyway, a couple of days ago I added in a pair of clowns. They were both doing great, and eating well. Then one of them got suctioned to the teeth of the overflow box. He died. So, I put some tape over the teeth that has small holes in it to try and prevent it from happening again. A day later, I put another small clownfish in to mate with the other juvenile in the tank last night. This morning, I went down and guess what- suctioned to the skimmer box. The other clown hasn’t seemed to have this problem, but I’m concerned about this happening to the remaining clown . Are my clowns too small? Or is my skimmer box not configured right? Why does this keep happening?

I’d appreciate any help,
Thanks.

 

[DSC reef]

Welcome to R2R. Sometimes sick or weak fish can be more prone to this, I've had it happen with my powerheads. Sometimes clownfish like to hang out in the corner of the tank and end up in the overflow. I can't seem to find that skimmer on marine depots website.

 

[madweazl]

I suspect the clowns are dying from something else and are being collected on the overflow vice the overflow causing the death.

 

[pletlibo]

Welcome to R2R. Sometimes sick or weak fish can be more prone to this, I've had it happen with my powerheads. Sometimes clownfish like to hang out in the corner of the tank and end up in the overflow. I can't seem to find that skimmer on marine depots website.

My apologies, in my haste to post this this morning I typed the wrong thing. I meant OF-800 as the overflow box. Anyway, I have addressed the possibility that the box isn’t causing the deaths, but my issue with this explanation is that neither clown exhibited any signs of a problem, or even stress. Neither were clamping fins, both were swimming around. My parameters in the tank are fine, and the other clown is also doing swimmingly. Could it be possible that my other clown is bullying them to death? But even if that were the case, wouldn’t I see some kind of sign of stress from the bullied clownfish, and wouldn’t it take longer than a night? It just seems like the skimmer box is causing their deaths.

 

[DSC reef]

It's hard to say, how strong is the suction on that skimmer box? @eatbreakfast what's your thoughts?

 

[pletlibo]

It's hard to say, how strong is the suction on that skimmer box? @eatbreakfast what's your thoughts?

The box siphons water at 800 GPH, if I recall correctly.

 

[DSC reef]

I can't see that being an issue unless the fish is weak. Do you notice them hanging around it a lot or the other clown forcing it near the skimmer?

 

[madweazl]

The box siphons water at 800 GPH, if I recall correctly.

It's made to flow a maximum of 800gph but that doesn't mean it is flowing that much. On a 75g aquarium, that isn't a crazy amount of flow and nothing living should have trouble avoiding it. What return pump are you using?

 

[pletlibo]

I can't see that being an issue unless the fish is weak. Do you notice them hanging around it a lot or the other clown forcing it near the skimmer?

The first clown I had die hung out in that corner constantly, in fact it had seemed he had bonded to either the thermostat (in that corner) or the skimmer itself. I guess that could be the cause of his death. And the second clown I bought was the smallest I could find (to make the bonding easier). I guess this tiny weak fish may have just died in the night, since it was his first day in a new environment. I was thinking about maybe getting a bigger clown than the one I have now, as that one has no problem with the skimmer at his size, and there would still be a size difference to allow for easy mating. At the very least, I could rule the skimmer out for being the cause of the death. Does this sound like a good idea?

Also my return pump is a simple 800 GPH return, but with 4 or 5 feet of head pressure I'm sure that's not the flow that's actually being returned to the tank. So the skimmer certainly isn't sucking out massive amounts of water.

 

[DSC reef]

Id say it's safe to rule out the skimmer.

 

[Brew12]

Agreed, the overflow is not the problem, it is the collection point.

Clowns are mean so it is possible that bullying is what is causing the deaths. I'm not sure it is likely, but it is possible.

How did you acclimate the new clown into your system?

 

[pletlibo]

Agreed, the overflow is not the problem, it is the collection point.

Clowns are mean so it is possible that bullying is what is causing the deaths. I'm not sure it is likely, but it is possible.

How did you acclimate the new clown into your system?

First I floated him in the tank water for about 15 minutes, then drip acclimated him in a bucket over a period of about an hour.

Also- what do you mean by the “collection point”?

 

[DLHDesign]

I'm sorry for your losses. :-(

Pretty sure he means that it's not the skimmer killing the fish; something else is and the skimmer is just where the bodies have ended up for you to find.

It sounds like you are doing a tank acclimation (temp and params), but if the existing clown is bullying the newbies, then you will also need to do some social acclimation as well. This generally involves separating the two fish, but allowing them to interact. In other words; put the new fish in a clear box and let them watch each other for a while (overnight, at least, I'd think - longer if you observe any aggressive behavior still). There are several options out there for such "acclimation boxes" - some with fancy lids and suction cups and the like, some a bit more basic that just float on the surface. So long as there is a decent amount of water flow through the box, you shouldn't need to feel rushed in the acclimation process. Of course, if you're still seeing aggression after a few days, it may just not be a good fit and you should consider alternatives.

Not sure what you've done with the latest body, but if you still have it, you might want to take pictures of both sides of it and post them up here. It's possible that you have some disease in your tank that's responsible. That one fish is surviving could just mean that it has built up enough of an immunity to save itself; especially if it's past the stressful part of the move into the new tank. You may want to look into adopting some basic quarantine procedures in the future.

 

[pletlibo]

I'm sorry for your losses. :-(

Pretty sure he means that it's not the skimmer killing the fish; something else is and the skimmer is just where the bodies have ended up for you to find.

It sounds like you are doing a tank acclimation (temp and params), but if the existing clown is bullying the newbies, then you will also need to do some social acclimation as well. This generally involves separating the two fish, but allowing them to interact. In other words; put the new fish in a clear box and let them watch each other for a while (overnight, at least, I'd think - longer if you observe any aggressive behavior still). There are several options out there for such "acclimation boxes" - some with fancy lids and suction cups and the like, some a bit more basic that just float on the surface. So long as there is a decent amount of water flow through the box, you shouldn't need to feel rushed in the acclimation process. Of course, if you're still seeing aggression after a few days, it may just not be a good fit and you should consider alternatives.

Not sure what you've done with the latest body, but if you still have it, you might want to take pictures of both sides of it and post them up here. It's possible that you have some disease in your tank that's responsible. That one fish is surviving could just mean that it has built up enough of an immunity to save itself; especially if it's past the stressful part of the move into the new tank. You may want to look into adopting some basic quarantine procedures in the future.

Thank you for all the good information! It’s a lot to take in. I may still have access to the clowns body but I’ll have to wait for a couple of days as I am traveling a little for thanksgiving this week, but I will try to upload pictures then. I’m familiar with many of the common diseases that affect marine fish and I haven’t been seeing any symptoms in any of the fish (including the ones who have died), with the exception of the first one being kind seclusive and hiding. The second one that died didn’t do this however.

I think what’s responsible is either aggression from the other clown or just bad luck with new fish and inexperience. I bought these fish from petco, who don’t have the best reputation for keeping high quality animals. On my way back from my travels I’ll be picking up another clown and a royal gramma from a larger reliable local store that specializes in saltwater. I actually do have a quarantine system set up, and that’s where the Royal gramma will be going when I get back. The reason I skipped out on the quarantine for the second clown was because I was afraid that the other clown would get too large or mature, and I wouldn’t be able to mate the pair.

So I think that’s what I’ll do, and I’ll try to do some of that social acclimation you were talking about this time. I was also planning on getting maybe a bigger fish than the one in there as opposed to a smaller one, so that maybe the bullying will be kept to a minimum. Thanks for all of the help!

 

[Brew12]

Thank you for all the good information! It’s a lot to take in. I may still have access to the clowns body but I’ll have to wait for a couple of days as I am traveling a little for thanksgiving this week, but I will try to upload pictures then. I’m familiar with many of the common diseases that affect marine fish and I haven’t been seeing any symptoms in any of the fish (including the ones who have died), with the exception of the first one being kind seclusive and hiding. The second one that died didn’t do this however.

I think what’s responsible is either aggression from the other clown or just bad luck with new fish and inexperience. I bought these fish from petco, who don’t have the best reputation for keeping high quality animals. On my way back from my travels I’ll be picking up another clown and a royal gramma from a larger reliable local store that specializes in saltwater. I actually do have a quarantine system set up, and that’s where the Royal gramma will be going when I get back. The reason I skipped out on the quarantine for the second clown was because I was afraid that the other clown would get too large or mature, and I wouldn’t be able to mate the pair.

So I think that’s what I’ll do, and I’ll try to do some of that social acclimation you were talking about this time. I was also planning on getting maybe a bigger fish than the one in there as opposed to a smaller one, so that maybe the bullying will be kept to a minimum. Thanks for all of the help!

Something to keep in mind.....

If your fish did die from a disease that disease is likely still living in your tank and your clown currently has an immunity to it. When you add new fish you could be exposing them to whatever killed the previous fish. Typically, the only way to clear the system once infected is to leave it without fish for a period of time. The length of that time depends on the pathogen involved.

Personally, I choose to go the full QT route for every fish in my system but it isn't the only way to be successful. You can also try to run a system based on enhancing the fishes natural immunity. This is more challenging for new reefers but it can be, and has been, done successfully.

 

[pletlibo]

Something to keep in mind.....

If your fish did die from a disease that disease is likely still living in your tank and your clown currently has an immunity to it. When you add new fish you could be exposing them to whatever killed the previous fish. Typically, the only way to clear the system once infected is to leave it without fish for a period of time. The length of that time depends on the pathogen involved.

Personally, I choose to go the full QT route for every fish in my system but it isn't the only way to be successful. You can also try to run a system based on enhancing the fishes natural immunity. This is more challenging for new reefers but it can be, and has been, done successfully.

Alright that makes sense. I guess for the time being I'll put all of my new animals in the QT until I can be sure the main tank is safe. Is there any effective way to find out if there is a disease without risking another fish's life? Even though he has an immunity, would the surviving clown show any symptoms? I didn't notice anything unusual on the body when I disposed of it, but when I do check it out again what should I be looking for?

 

[Brew12]

Alright that makes sense. I guess for the time being I'll put all of my new animals in the QT until I can be sure the main tank is safe. Is there any effective way to find out if there is a disease without risking another fish's life? Even though he has an immunity, would the surviving clown show any symptoms? I didn't notice anything unusual on the body when I disposed of it, but when I do check it out again what should I be looking for?

You are in a tough situation. Unfortunately, without any symptoms I can't give you a treatment recommendation. You really need to be observant the next time you add fish for different behavioral clues. Swimming into a powerhead, for example. Avoid light. Excessive mucus buildup. Stuff like that.

I wish I could be of more help!

 

[pletlibo]

You are in a tough situation. Unfortunately, without any symptoms I can't give you a treatment recommendation. You really need to be observant the next time you add fish for different behavioral clues. Swimming into a powerhead, for example. Avoid light. Excessive mucus buildup. Stuff like that.

I wish I could be of more help!

Does anyone know of diseases that can act that quickly? What diseases out there would kill my fish in two days in the first case, or overnight in the second. Would the other clown be able to have an immunity to a disease that severe? Since both of the clowns that died came from the same store--the same tank actually, wouldn't there have to have been a disease in that tank to kill them both, and wouldn't all of the clowns in the store be dying? Since it was a newly setup tank, where else would the disease have come from? Again, all the fish that I have put in this tank came from the same tank at the same store. If the disease was killing my fish, certainly it would be killing the fish at the store?

Now of course stress can make fish more susceptible to disease, but the store seems like a stressful environment for the fish too. When selecting my fish, the employees netted a couple that they then returned to the tank because it seemed extremely stressed. In the plastic container, one was down on the bottom breathing rapidly. I asked for a different clown. Also, there is a large group of clowns in that tank that are all juveniles, so they are all in the struggle for dominance. They all had torn up fins. Also, there are aggressive tank mates. There was a foxface in the tank that got very upset when the employee was netting my clowns. I even recall the employee questioning why there was a foxface in the tank, saying they usually kept aggressive fish together in separate systems.

So all of this in mind, I guess I'll start doing research on severe diseases that can kill fish quickly and look out for them. To me, the idea of a disease being in the tank seems unlikely for all of these reasons.

 

[Brew12]

Does anyone know of diseases that can act that quickly? What diseases out there would kill my fish in two days in the first case, or overnight in the second. Would the other clown be able to have an immunity to a disease that severe? Since both of the clowns that died came from the same store--the same tank actually, wouldn't there have to have been a disease in that tank to kill them both, and wouldn't all of the clowns in the store be dying? Since it was a newly setup tank, where else would the disease have come from? Again, all the fish that I have put in this tank came from the same tank at the same store. If the disease was killing my fish, certainly it would be killing the fish at the store?

Now of course stress can make fish more susceptible to disease, but the store seems like a stressful environment for the fish too. When selecting my fish, the employees netted a couple that they then returned to the tank because it seemed extremely stressed. In the plastic container, one was down on the bottom breathing rapidly. I asked for a different clown. Also, there is a large group of clowns in that tank that are all juveniles, so they are all in the struggle for dominance. They all had torn up fins. Also, there are aggressive tank mates. There was a foxface in the tank that got very upset when the employee was netting my clowns. I even recall the employee questioning why there was a foxface in the tank, saying they usually kept aggressive fish together in separate systems.

So all of this in mind, I guess I'll start doing research on severe diseases that can kill fish quickly and look out for them. To me, the idea of a disease being in the tank seems unlikely for all of these reasons.

Velvet, Brook, and some bacteria infections can kill fish very quickly. Internal parasites can also cause a rapid demise by the time symptoms are noticed, if noticed at all. All of these things take completely different actions to treat.

If your fish came from Petco, I would think a parasite such as Ich or Velvet (probably both) are in your system. But, as you said, that doesn't mean that they are the cause of death. Many people maintain otherwise healthy systems with these pathogens in the tanks and only see signs they are there during a high stress event.

Part of the issue is that there is no way for us to know the history of the fish before it got to Petco. Its possible that they were injured during collection. They could have been injured while being netted. Maybe they were exposed to too much ammonia during shipping.

I hope someone can provide more guidance to you, but I am glad that you are continuing to do research!