Clown Behavior / Psychology

[spound]

Hi All and thanks in advance. I have a pair of storm clowns that are about 4 months old living in a 13 gallon reef tank. They were very cute together. Everyday when the lights turned off like clockwork they would go to their spot and snuggle together through the night.
Then about a month ago one started getting sick. I noticed it being lethargic and periodically laying on the bottom like it was sleeping, then saw something white and stringy being expelled. After doing some research, found out this could be a few different things, but most likely something in the digestive tract and was advised by my LFS to use Metroplex. I did 3 days of treatments, which the fish responded well to. Then I went I a trip for 2 weeks….. ( side note - the other clown started getting larger at this point, not sure if it was becoming the female or it just wasn’t sick and eating regularly)
I have a camera on the tank which I was monitering in case of emergency. After a week the clown started to get lethargic again. And after 3 days it got progressively worse and I didn’t think it was going to make it, so I asked a friend to go over and dose the tank with metroplex later that night. But the clown perked up and started to swim around again. So i told the friend to cancel the 911 treatment as I was going to be back in 2 days. Over those 2 days the fish health seemed to get worse and the now larger clown wasn’t as affectionate or nurturing anymore. Like it gave up on its mate. Never aggressive though.
When I got home it was in bad shape. It was emaciated and in distress, lying on the bottom of the tank. I set up a quarantine / infirmary, it seemed responsive immediately. Maybe just new sea water, more oxygen, (had been 13 days since a water change) I did a dose of metroplex, just to be thorough. After 2 days it started to eat again. I kept in the QT for 3 more days as it gained strength, and acclimated back to the main tank 2 days ago.
Since then it seems healthy, it’s active and eating. The now larger clown seemed happy to have its “pair” back and they swim together throughout the day. But when it is “bedtime” the smaller lays down in their spot but the larger storm doesn’t and swims in a spot at the top of the tank throughout the night. This changed behavior during nighttime hours started when the smaller clown was in quarantine.
Are they unpaired? If clowns do unpair can they repair? Is it bad that the larger clown doesn’t sleep anymore? Can the larger one now get aggressive towards the smaller one if they aren’t a pair?

Thanks and have a great day.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi All and thanks in advance. I have a pair of storm clowns that are about 4 months old living in a 13 gallon reef tank. They were very cute together. Everyday when the lights turned off like clockwork they would go to their spot and snuggle together through the night.
Then about a month ago one started getting sick. I noticed it being lethargic and periodically laying on the bottom like it was sleeping, then saw something white and stringy being expelled. After doing some research, found out this could be a few different things, but most likely something in the digestive tract and was advised by my LFS to use Metroplex. I did 3 days of treatments, which the fish responded well to. Then I went I a trip for 2 weeks….. ( side note - the other clown started getting larger at this point, not sure if it was becoming the female or it just wasn’t sick and eating regularly)
I have a camera on the tank which I was monitering in case of emergency. After a week the clown started to get lethargic again. And after 3 days it got progressively worse and I didn’t think it was going to make it, so I asked a friend to go over and dose the tank with metroplex later that night. But the clown perked up and started to swim around again. So i told the friend to cancel the 911 treatment as I was going to be back in 2 days. Over those 2 days the fish health seemed to get worse and the now larger clown wasn’t as affectionate or nurturing anymore. Like it gave up on its mate. Never aggressive though.
When I got home it was in bad shape. It was emaciated and in distress, lying on the bottom of the tank. I set up a quarantine / infirmary, it seemed responsive immediately. Maybe just new sea water, more oxygen, (had been 13 days since a water change) I did a dose of metroplex, just to be thorough. After 2 days it started to eat again. I kept in the QT for 3 more days as it gained strength, and acclimated back to the main tank 2 days ago.
Since then it seems healthy, it’s active and eating. The now larger clown seemed happy to have its “pair” back and they swim together throughout the day. But when it is “bedtime” the smaller lays down in their spot but the larger storm doesn’t and swims in a spot at the top of the tank throughout the night. This changed behavior during nighttime hours started when the smaller clown was in quarantine.
Are they unpaired? If clowns do unpair can they repair? Is it bad that the larger clown doesn’t sleep anymore? Can the larger one now get aggressive towards the smaller one if they aren’t a pair?

Thanks and have a great day.

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

I've long given up trying to get inside a clownfish's head (grin). Their pair behavior is so complex and dynamic, you can't really predict much. If the pair bond in your fish had truly broken down, they wouldn't swim together during the day, and the smaller clown would develop ripped fins and/or missing scales on its body.

Jay

 

[spound]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

I've long given up trying to get inside a clownfish's head (grin). Their pair behavior is so complex and dynamic, you can't really predict much. If the pair bond in your fish had truly broken down, they wouldn't swim together during the day, and the smaller clown would develop ripped fins and/or missing scales on its body.

Jay

Thanks for the info.
Today the smaller clown had another very long stringy white “poop” and is lethargic again. I’m not sure what to do at this point. Keep on treating with metroplex?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for the info.
Today the smaller clown had another very long stringy white “poop” and is lethargic again. I’m not sure what to do at this point. Keep on treating with metroplex?

The mucus feces are a separate issue. The metroplex helps with one cause of this, but some of the other causes have no treatment. Here is some text I wrote about the issue:

Excess mucus in fish feces:

This will present as white or light colored, stringy fecal material that often hangs from the fish’s anus for a longer than normal period. There are a number of different causes for this, some benign, others very serious. Without access to a microscope, there is little that can be done to diagnose this issue effectively.

Idiopathic mucus feces: this fancy term is just to describe white mucoid bulky feces of no serious consequence, but of an unknown cause. Some suspicion is that this can be caused by changes in diet or diets high in fats.

Starvation: Fish that have no food moving through their bowels may excrete white mucoid feces with little bulk to them. The primary diagnostic for this issue is evident in that the fish won’t been seen to be eating. Resolving the anorexia is of course the prime focus to resolve this issue.

Bacterial infection: internal bacterial infections can cause stringy feces as well. While some of these may resolve on their own, medicated foods containing a broad spectrum, gram negative oral antibiotic may be required.

Metazoan infections: multicellular worms are often blamed for mucoid feces, but in reality, they are almost never the root cause for this, and really, can only be diagnosed through looking for their ova in fecal samples. Fish can harbor tapeworms and nematodes without producing mucoid feces.

Protozoan infection: Hexamita and related diplomonad flagellate protozoans very frequently cause white stringy feces, especially in newly acquired clownfish. Metronidazole is the most frequent treatment for this issue. It can be dosed orally at 25 mg per kg of fish body weight, or 5 g in a kg of food. However, it is a very bitter medication, and some fish will refuse to feed on food containing it. It can be dosed in the water at 25 mg/l, but this is more effective in treating marine fishes, as freshwater fish do not “drink” aquarium water.

Coccidia: These microscopic, spore-forming, single-celled parasites are common diseases in dogs and cats. In fish, they cause epithelial necrosis of the gut, enteritis and the copious production of mucus (Noga 2010). These cannot be diagnosed without microscopic examination, and there is no well researched cure for this in fishes, although Toltrazuril has been tested.

Constipation: This malady is often given as a cause for stringy feces, but it is not as common as one would think. When it is seen, the feces are usually dark, not light in color. Often touted as a “cure for constipation”, many aquarists add Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) to the aquarium’s water – do not do this in marine aquariums, its use is primarily as a tonic/dip for freshwater fish. Seawater formulas already contain between 7 and 19 grams of magnesium sulfate per gallon (depending on the recipe). NSW magnesium level is around 1200 ppm and sulfur is around 840 ppm. Some benefit might be seen using it as a dip in additional concentrations, but adding a small amount to a marine aquarium itself has no benefit. Epsom salts do have some possible benefit when mixed into the food as a 3% by weight adjunct. Another commonly heard remedy for constipation is; “feed fresh peas”. This is an effective cure for fancy goldfish and Malawi cichlids that develop constipation and bloating. Again, overextrapolation has marine aquarists trying to feed peas to carnivorous fish, etc. The best method to enhance gut motility in fish is to feed frozen adult brine shrimp – not as a permanent diet, just long enough to get the constipation resolved.

Jay

 

[spound]

Thanks for all the good info. Fingers crossed.

 

[spound]

Thanks for all the good info. Fingers crossed.

Update….. I’ve had him in a qt for 3 days and he has gotten worse, just lying on the bottom. Yesterday I turned the hob filter off because it created too much flow and I figured that it was more stressful for him and I thought he would pass away overnight, but he is still breathing.
I had given up on him, but there is still signs of life, see video.
I’m not sure of the disease at this point. There are no signs externally, is there another medicine I can try?

 

[spound]

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The clown is VERY thin, that sort of thing can sneak up on you, without a good frame of reference, it can be difficult to tell if a fish is too thin.

How many metroplex treatments has it had?

Jay

 

[spound]

It responded well to 3 days of heavy dosing in qt about 1 month ago. Then 2 weeks ago started getting lethargic again and stopped eating.
I didn’t think he would make it through the. Night so as a Hail Mary I have him in qt now with fresh saltwater doses with melaflex and pimafix. Just left the house for a few hours we will see but I don’t think there is a chance.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It responded well to 3 days of heavy dosing in qt about 1 month ago. Then 2 weeks ago started getting lethargic again and stopped eating.
I didn’t think he would make it through the. Night so as a Hail Mary I have him in qt now with fresh saltwater doses with melaflex and pimafix. Just left the house for a few hours we will see but I don’t think there is a chance.

So - you can't run it through another course of Metro?

jay

 

[spound]

I put a full dose of metro in last night as well.
I can’t believe he made it through the night, but he is on his 70% of the time with his pectoral fins slowly fluttering. Then he will upright himself for a little bit and flutter his whole body.

Do you think I should try and tube feed him?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I put a full dose of metro in last night as well.
I can’t believe he made it through the night, but he is on his 70% of the time with his pectoral fins slowly fluttering. Then he will upright himself for a little bit and flutter his whole body.

Do you think I should try and tube feed him?

No - tube feeding a fish that small is too difficult. At the very least you would need a fish anesthetic and a feline urinary catheter to do that.

Jay

 

[spound]

No - tube feeding a fish that small is too difficult. At the very least you would need a fish anesthetic and a feline urinary catheter to do that.

J

Sadly the small storm clown passed away that night. I wanted the surviving storm to have a companion so I picked up a nano ocellaris a day or two later. The storm was a little nippy for the first week or so, then they seemed fine together. Though not as friendly as the original pair.
Then 4 days ago the new clown stopped going after the pellets, so i gave him some flakes and he ate them. Two days ago he stopped eating and is hanging out in a top corner 95% of the time. I also saw a white poo......
So a few questions......
How should I treat him? A few treatments of higher dose metroplex like I did with the other storm clown that ended up not making it? I have pimafix and melafix as well, not sure if those might be better suited. I also have metroflakes, but he isnt eating them.
Other question, is if it is a parasite, virus or bacteria why isnt it affecting the larger storm clown or the tail spot blenny? Because they have stringer immune systems that could fight it off?

Thanks All!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sadly the small storm clown passed away that night. I wanted the surviving storm to have a companion so I picked up a nano ocellaris a day or two later. The storm was a little nippy for the first week or so, then they seemed fine together. Though not as friendly as the original pair.
Then 4 days ago the new clown stopped going after the pellets, so i gave him some flakes and he ate them. Two days ago he stopped eating and is hanging out in a top corner 95% of the time. I also saw a white poo......
So a few questions......
How should I treat him? A few treatments of higher dose metroplex like I did with the other storm clown that ended up not making it? I have pimafix and melafix as well, not sure if those might be better suited. I also have metroflakes, but he isnt eating them.
Other question, is if it is a parasite, virus or bacteria why isnt it affecting the larger storm clown or the tail spot blenny? Because they have stringer immune systems that could fight it off?

Thanks All!

Skip the Pimafix and Melafix, at best they are tonics for external issues.

The metro flakes are great, but as you point out, the fish still needs to be eating.

Metroplex in the water is the best thing to try, but please be aware that there are viruses and coccidia that case the same symptoms, but are not treatable.

I can’t answer why the other clown hadn’t gotten sick except that if it is gut protozoans, all fish host those, but only get sick from them if their physical resistance is lowered.

Jay