Clarity on Tropic Marin Part C

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hey, my first post Be gentle...
Tropic Marin Part C.....I couldn't find much except what it says on the box " sodium chloride free salt"
(besides a mention on a BRS vid saying just that)
Pardon my chemistry skills but could you make AFSW if you added in Sodium Chloride?

Yes. But it wouldn’t be better or cheaper than a salt mix.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

or, put a third way: if you carefully mixed equal volumes parts A, B, C (consistent with the dosing instructions) with a sufficient quanity of RODI, would this make a solution that matches a complete salt mix?

The answer to that is a definite no. You need sodium chloride, not sodium bicarbonate plus calcium chloride. It would make a precipitation mess if you did what you suggest.

 

[burningbaal]

The answer to that is a definite no. You need sodium chloride, not sodium bicarbonate plus calcium chloride. It would make a precipitation mess if you did what you suggest.

Presumably if you have a sufficient volume of RODI and add the the CaCl and NaCO3, it would reassociate without precipitation...this is essentially what salt mix is, right? Now, I can imagine a good salt mix may have more NaCl than this mix would have, is that the essential issue missing from this idea?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Presumably if you have a sufficient volume of RODI and add the the CaCl and NaCO3, it would reassociate without precipitation...this is essentially what salt mix is, right? Now, I can imagine a good salt mix may have more NaCl than this mix would have, is that the essential issue missing from this idea?

Yes to the last question, no to the first. If you add as little as a salt mix has, it will still be extremely deficient in sodium and chloride.

 

[burningbaal]

Yes to the last question, no to the first. If you add as little as a salt mix has, it will still be extremely deficient in sodium and chloride.

thank you, this is exactly the type of answer I was looking for (and I think @Silent was also saying). Now the key followup. I know you have a fantastic track record of reef chemistry related concerns, but to be clear: Do you, @Randy Holmes-Farley , have specific knowledge based on the composition of these Tropic Marin additives? The answer makes sense, I'm just trying to make sure it's based on these actual reagents

 

[Doctorgori]

Following closely since one of my biggest expenses is salt mix... I have seahorses with their primitive gut are bacterial sensitive and that means lots of fresh sw .... Not suggesting a cheap mix for fish per se but certainly for phyto, pods and such ...wonder if any chance BRS get in on the AFSW market
Just curious Randy you got any suggestions or ideas for cheap AFSW?

 

[burningbaal]

Following closely since one of my biggest expenses is salt mix... I have seahorses with their primitive gut are bacterial sensitive and that means lots of fresh sw .... Not suggesting a cheap mix for fish per se but certainly for phyto, pods and such ...wonder if any chance BRS get in on the AFSW market
Just curious Randy you got any suggestions or ideas for cheap AFSW?

I highly doubt you'll find an answer like this to beat a salt mix on cost. I'm chasing this down to make sure I understand what I'm putting in my tank, not because it's cheaper than salt mix.
For your ponies, I would think your best answer is a big UV sterilizer and massive nutrient export (refugium/macroalgae and skimming) would be the best answers to cut down on salt mix costs.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

thank you, this is exactly the type of answer I was looking for (and I think @Silent was also saying). Now the key followup. I know you have a fantastic track record of reef chemistry related concerns, but to be clear: Do you, @Randy Holmes-Farley , have specific knowledge based on the composition of these Tropic Marin additives? The answer makes sense, I'm just trying to make sure it's based on these actual reagents

I’m aware of exactly what they are, yes. It’s both simple to figure out from the claims, and Hans Werner (the inventor) has explained it here at least once, maybe several times, as has Lou. Both were typically in the context of trying to show how it is different from a two part.

On that last part, the only functional difference between a perfect implementation of a two part and a perfect implement of Balling is that, while both must raise salinity, the two part must do so to a greater extent. That’s the price you pay for putting the components into 2 parts instead of three.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Following closely since one of my biggest expenses is salt mix... I have seahorses with their primitive gut are bacterial sensitive and that means lots of fresh sw .... Not suggesting a cheap mix for fish per se but certainly for phyto, pods and such ...wonder if any chance BRS get in on the AFSW market
Just curious Randy you got any suggestions or ideas for cheap AFSW?

Theres not going to be cheaper salt water mix than a big volume manufacturer can provide. Like IO. Making it yourself is not going to save money unless quality is a low priority.

 

[burningbaal]

I’m aware of exactly what they are, yes. It’s both simple to figure out from the claims, and Hans Werner (the inventor) has explained it here at least once, maybe several times, as has Lou. Both were typically in the context of trying to show how it is different from a two part.

On that last part, the only functional difference between a perfect implementation of a two part and a perfect implement of Balling is that, while both must raise salinity, the two part must do so to a greater extent. That’s the price you pay for putting the components into 2 parts instead of three.

Thank you x 1,000,000

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Presumably if you have a sufficient volume of RODI and add the the CaCl and NaCO3, it would reassociate without precipitation...this is essentially what salt mix is, right? Now, I can imagine a good salt mix may have more NaCl than this mix would have, is that the essential issue missing from this idea?

By the way, to add a little to Randy's explanation, adding calcium chloride and sodium carbonate/bicarbonate to pure water (or a solution of the same compounds to pure water) will always cause precipitation of calcium carbonate. That's because calcium carbonate's solubility in pure water is 0.013 g/L at 25C (from wikipedia). That's 13 milligrams in a liter at saturation - any additional calcium in solution with carbonate/bicarbonate will precipitate.

You might ask: "So how is it possible that seawater maintains a good deal higher concentration of these two ions without precipitating?". The answer is the presence of magnesium. Without going into a whole lot of technical detail about non-ideal solutions (in the chemistry sense of the word "non ideal"), the basics is that magnesium ions "poison" the further precipitation of calcium carbonate on a growing calcium carbonate crystal. Randy explains this under the heading "magnesium" in this article.

 

[burningbaal]

By the way, to add a little to Randy's explanation, adding calcium chloride and sodium carbonate/bicarbonate to pure water (or a solution of the same compounds to pure water) will always cause precipitation of calcium carbonate. That's because calcium carbonate's solubility in pure water is 0.013 g/L at 25C (from wikipedia). That's 13 milligrams in a liter at saturation - any additional calcium in solution with carbonate/bicarbonate will precipitate.

You might ask: "So how is it possible that seawater maintains a good deal higher concentration of these two ions without precipitating?". The answer is the presence of magnesium. Without going into a whole lot of technical detail about non-ideal solutions (in the chemistry sense of the word "non ideal"), the basics is that magnesium ions "poison" the further precipitation of calcium carbonate on a growing calcium carbonate crystal. Randy explains this under the heading "magnesium" in this article.

Right... But if part c is there, this effect of the Mg should be in full force... Isn't that the whole point of part c?

 

[User1]

What is the typical way people dose the three part? I was going the route of ESV 2 part since it would work well with my existing dosing pump (2 heads). While I like ESV as a product I also like what I have read on the three part here and a few other places.

Not sure I want to buy another dosing head. Well, the apex unit is two so if I stayed with it that would give me 4 in case I needed something else down the road. Then again I sort of like simple but the lazy in me would like it done automatically.

Anyway great thread here - just wanted to say thanks.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Right... But if part c is there, this effect of the Mg should be in full force... Isn't that the whole point of part c?

In theory, one could dissolve the correct amount of magnesium sulfate and magnesium chloride in RODI to get to seawater concentrations, and then add (one at a time) the correct amount of calcium chloride and sodium carbonate/bicarbonate to get to seawater concentrations in that same RODI without an instant precipitation reaction.

The resulting chemical solution would not, as Randy notes, actually resemble seawater. Among other aspects, it would be greatly deficient in sodium chloride.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

What is the typical way people dose the three part? I was going the route of ESV 2 part since it would work well with my existing dosing pump (2 heads). While I like ESV as a product I also like what I have read on the three part here and a few other places.

Not sure I want to buy another dosing head. Well, the apex unit is two so if I stayed with it that would give me 4 in case I needed something else down the road. Then again I sort of like simple but the lazy in me would like it done automatically.

Anyway great thread here - just wanted to say thanks.

Many of us don't dose magnesium chloride/sulfate at all, since our tanks don't use it in substantial amounts, we use a seawater mix that has elevated magnesium levels (over natural seawater), and our water change schedule is sufficient to maintain the magnesium concentration at or above NSW.

However, many simply manually dose a magnesium chloride/sulfate solution on an as-needed basis. Since magnesium is consumed much more slowly than calcium and alkalinity, additions of the magnesium solution are much less frequent - perhaps once a week.

 

[User1]

Many of us don't dose magnesium chloride/sulfate at all, since our tanks don't use it in substantial amounts, we use a seawater mix that has elevated magnesium levels (over natural seawater), and our water change schedule is sufficient to maintain the magnesium concentration at or above NSW.

However, many simply manually dose a magnesium chloride/sulfate solution on an as-needed basis. Since magnesium is consumed much more slowly than calcium and alkalinity, additions of the magnesium solution are much less frequent - perhaps once a week.

Thank you.

 

[Lou Ekus]

yep, I saw the video, it's what made me start considering this, and it's why I found a thread where Lou contributed so I could get a direct answer about these. It's not clear to me if these additives combined make an ESV-style salt mix or if it's a skewed mix that maybe contains extra Ca, CO3, Mg, Sr, K, etc since we expect corals are taking up more of those than Na, Cl. The video does say the Balling reagents are intended to keep things in balance, but I'm not sure what that means...'balance' can mean a few different things.
I'm hoping to get a direct answer from someone who has specific knowledge of the composition of these specific additives.

I think that "in principle" the idea of the A,B, and C of the Balling, with RO/DI water, making up perfectly balanced sea water, is an interesting question. I've never thought of it quite that way, and I will try to get Hans-Werner Balling to weigh in on this for the real answer! The thing about it that I question is not in relation to the Part C. You are absolutely correct, that the Part C is everything that is found in natural sea water, with out the carbonates, calcium and sodium chloride. What I don't know is if the Ca and alkalinity in the Parts A and B are elevated to accommodate for supplementation. It is possible that mixed in these exact proportions, might give you elevated levels of Ca and alk. But I don't know if that is correct or not. I will see if I can get HW on this thread to answer this.
In any case, this is a very interesting question from a chemical standpoint. It doesn't really have any practical application, as it would be much to expensive to actually do with pharma grade ingredients at home. But I love the thinking behind it!

 

[burningbaal]

I think that "in principle" the idea of the A,B, and C of the Balling, with RO/DI water, making up perfectly balanced sea water, is an interesting question. I've never thought of it quite that way, and I will try to get Hans-Werner Balling to weigh in on this for the real answer! The thing about it that I question is not in relation to the Part C. You are absolutely correct, that the Part C is everything that is found in natural sea water, with out the carbonates, calcium and sodium chloride. What I don't know is if the Ca and alkalinity in the Parts A and B are elevated to accommodate for supplementation. It is possible that mixed in these exact proportions, might give you elevated levels of Ca and alk. But I don't know if that is correct or not. I will see if I can get HW on this thread to answer this.
In any case, this is a very interesting question from a chemical standpoint. It doesn't really have any practical application, as it would be much to expensive to actually do with pharma grade ingredients at home. But I love the thinking behind it!

Thank you so much, this (and Randy's answer) are exactly the chemistry answer I was fishing for, I'm very curious to see what Hans-Werner has to say. My thinking is that since NSW has about 10,000ppm Sodium and twice that much chlorine (total atoms, not elemental), that presumably a mixture of parts A, B, C would be (as Randy said) deficient in (at least) those elements.

I figure it's a long shot, but is there a certificate of composition or anything for these reagents (espeically part c)? That might help clear it up a bit.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Thank you so much, this (and Randy's answer) are exactly the chemistry answer I was fishing for, I'm very curious to see what Hans-Werner has to say. My thinking is that since NSW has about 10,000ppm Sodium and twice that much chlorine (total atoms, not elemental), that presumably a mixture of parts A, B, C would be (as Randy said) deficient in (at least) those elements.

I figure it's a long shot, but is there a certificate of composition or anything for these reagents (espeically part c)? That might help clear it up a bit.

I apologize, but there is no exact list of the components and concentrations of the Balling Part C. That would, of course, be a proprietary piece of information. What I can tell you, is the we use the most current research on ocean water analysis and create that Part C from the remaining components of sea water, aside from the ones we mentioned being in the Parts A and B.

 

[burningbaal]

I apologize, but there is no exact list of the components and concentrations of the Balling Part C. That would, of course, be a proprietary piece of information. What I can tell you, is the we use the most current research on ocean water analysis and create that Part C from the remaining components of sea water, aside from the ones we mentioned being in the Parts A and B.

Makes sense, and precisely what I'd expect. I wonder if the elements taken up by the livestock (corals) is balanced across all those trace elements, perhaps we'd end up over-concentrating those trace elements?

I've been thinking I may use Mg as the regulator here (when I start using these reagents). My thought is to start with the 3-part as prescribed, keeping my Ca and Alk at the target, but if Mg raises/lowers over time, I'll adjust the part C accordingly...does that sound reasonable?