Cipro not killing bjd

[WrasseyReefer]

I have what I assume is bjd in my tank. It’s effected 3 lps corals so far, a Goni, a plate, and a Galaxea. I’ve done repeated in tank treatments with Cipro 500 mg pills dissolved in 50 ml rodi, dosed at varying doses based on posts on here and multiple coral baths with Cipro. But it keeps coming back. Cipro pills are not expired. Dosing at night when display lights are off. I make sure that uv and algae lights are off before dosing and skimmer cup is removed. Any suggestions for alternative treatments or if this could be something that looks like bjd but is something else? I’ve already lost a bunch of tissue from the three corals. I’ll try to get some pictures tomorrow when lights are back on. I’ve had success with treating bjd on a hammer in the past. Lost a few heads but was able to successfully save the remaining heads with Cipro. Don’t know why it’s not working this time around. It’s possible that the bacteria are antibiotic-resistant. As a side benefit, it did kill off cyano I had in the sand and on some rocks, so it’s doing something, just not eliminating the bjd that’s killing my 3 corals. Been treating for a week+.

I understand that the use of antibiotics in the hobby is a very heated topic. I would like this thread not to turn into a debate on the use of antibiotics in the hobby. I would just really appreciate any friendly advice on how I could potentially save my corals.

Thanks for your help.

 

[gbroadbridge]

I have what I assume is bjd in my tank. It’s effected 3 lps corals so far, a Goni, a plate, and a Galaxea. I’ve done repeated in tank treatments with Cipro 500 mg pills dissolved in 50 ml rodi, dosed at varying doses based on posts on here and multiple coral baths with Cipro. But it keeps coming back. Cipro pills are not expired. Dosing at night when display lights are off. I make sure that uv and algae lights are off before dosing and skimmer cup is removed. Any suggestions for alternative treatments or if this could be something that looks like bjd but is something else? I’ve already lost a bunch of tissue from the three corals. I’ll try to get some pictures tomorrow when lights are back on. I’ve had success with treating bjd on a hammer in the past. Lost a few heads but was able to successfully save the remaining heads with Cipro. Don’t know why it’s not working this time around. As a side benefit, it did kill off cyano I had in the sand and on some rocks, so it’s doing something, just not eliminating the bjd that’s killing my 3 corals. Thanks for your help.

Overuse of antibiotics results in the bacteria becoming resistant to that antibiotic.

That may be what has occurred here and is why the world is running out of useful antibiotics.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

I understand that the overuse of antibiotics is definitely an important issue. Is there an alternative to saving coral infected with bjd? I tried one hydrogen peroxide bath, and it seemed to temporarily help, but then it came back. I will try repeated hydrogen peroxide baths. However, the issue with baths is it doesn’t prevent the spread to other corals within the tank. I suppose I could dose hydrogen peroxide, but I read that it could kill my pods. Other recommendations are appreciated.

 

[ryanjohn1]

I understand that the overuse of antibiotics is definitely an important issue. Is there an alternative to saving coral infected with bjd? I tried one hydrogen peroxide bath, and it seemed to temporarily help, but then it came back. I will try repeated hydrogen peroxide baths. However, the issue with baths is it doesn’t prevent the spread to other corals within the tank. I suppose I could dose hydrogen peroxide, but I read that it could kill my pods. Other recommendations are appreciated.

Look into the kfc dip method. Cipro plus a couple other things

 

[WrasseyReefer]

Look into the kfc dip method. Cipro plus a couple other things

Thank you. I looked it up, and it seems easy enough. Do you have a recommendation for sourcing amoxicillin?

 

[ryanjohn1]

Thank you. I looked it up, and it seems easy enough. Do you have a recommendation for sourcing amoxicillin?

I do not. But I’m sure if you called a vet or family doctor you could obtain

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

You should figure out why you have brown jelly and correct it. Corals only get this when they are seriously unhappy or when something is seriously wrong. Why are so many different corals in your tank getting brown jelly?

 

[MartinM]

You should figure out why you have brown jelly and correct it. Corals only get this when they are seriously unhappy or when something is seriously wrong. Why are so many different corals in your tank getting brown jelly?

While you have a point and hopefully parameters are in check, sometimes it’s an addition of a pathogenic bacteria from a new source. It’s not always “your parameters were wrong” although sometimes a shift can weaken their immune systems. Alk issues have triggered BJD for me in past.

I would do iodine dips for sure, and have you made sure to remove any GAC? I’ve also had good luck with amoxicillin for goniopora.

 

[hunterallen40]

Thank you. I looked it up, and it seems easy enough. Do you have a recommendation for sourcing amoxicillin?

Please make sure you actually have brown jelly before trying more antibiotics... I'm not in the camp that says nobody should ever use Cipro (or others) in the hobby, but I will say that what you are describing here is not responsible usage. I do not want that tome come across as offensive in any way, I just want it to be heard. This is what the majority of individuals worry about when Cipro comes into the conversation, and you should not use it this heavily or with any sort of frequency.

So let's back up for a minute... Could we see some pictures? What are your parameters? What is your water volume?

 

[Lavey29]

BJD means parameters are way off in your tank and the stressed corals have weakened immune systems allowing the bacteria to take over. You need to remove visibly infected corals from the tank and treat them in QT. I've successfully used ciprofloaxin before.

 

[JoJosReef]

removed to avoid misinterpretation

 

[WrasseyReefer]

While you have a point and hopefully parameters are in check, sometimes it’s an addition of a pathogenic bacteria from a new source. It’s not always “your parameters were wrong” although sometimes a shift can weaken their immune systems. Alk issues have triggered BJD for me in past.

I would do iodine dips for sure, and have you made sure to remove any GAC? I’ve also had good luck with amoxicillin for goniopora.

Thanks for your friendly help. You are correct. The goni and plate were new corals added to the system. They were dipped for pests beforehand but were not qt’ed. I’ll qt future corals to avoid this. Alk has been pretty stable.

I’ve ordered some amoxicillin for fish, “aqua mox” from chewy. No activated carbon running. Thanks for checking. I’ll try iodine dips as well.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

Keeping to the OP's topic of treatment and not antibiotic resistance,

1. Do you have a microscope that you can use to suck up some jelly and get a picture? If not, just a pick of the jelly under whites?

2. KFC dip seems like a reasonable next step.


Now I'll chime in against my own advice. A lot of people talk about antimicrobial resistance (AMR) with presumably little knowledge of how AMR emerges, becomes prevalent in a population or actually even works -- especially in an aquarium. Unless I'm mistaken and reefing is a hot hot hot hobby for AMR researchers. Are there any accounts at all of AMR bacteria observed before or after antibiotic treatment in an aquarium? Hint: "my treatment didn't work" is not evidence of AMR, you should be checking for resistance genes or growing the bacteria on plates with/without antibiotics. Likewise, what does the literature say about AMR resulting from wastewater containing flushed/drained antibiotics? My light reading didn't turn up much and mostly focused on wastewater from hospitals, not the magnitudes lower amounts of antibiotics flushed during an aquarium water change. Maybe I'll curry together a few papers later when I'm not too busy with my own lit reviews and R2R posts. Until evidence is presented that antibiotic treatment in an aquarium results in the emergence and spread of AMR, this should not be a deterrence from using them to save your tank animals when treatable symptoms are observed. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise if someone has good references.

TL;DR: take the anitbiotics resistance comments with a heap of salt unless they back it up with data.

Thanks for your friendly help. I don’t have a microscope to check ID. After HP dips last night, I’m not seeing any jelly right now. But if it comes back, I will take some photos under white lights.

I agree. I think people tend to make broad statements and claims about things they don’t truly understand or verify with legitimate scientific research papers.

 

[hunterallen40]

Please allow me to clarify my standpoint on this: I am in no way opposed to the use of antibiotics in our hobby. However, it is not responsible to repeatedly treat with Cipro. I will admit that I certainly am no expert with respect to antibiotics, and I think none of the individuals in this thread hold the necessary credentials to consider themselves experts either.

I will also state, for the record, that I frequently advocate for the use of Cipro in this hobby.

My point is simple: if it isn't working, please stop trying it repeatedly. It may not be BJD, and it may be that repeatedly throwing different antibiotics at the issue will not help you solve it. The Cipro treatment usually will show improvements the morning after the first dose, and I will confirm this from personal experience!

We must be responsible here. I will never say "Cipro should be prohibited." But it should be applied correctly.

For what it's worth, I've seen retracted polyps for other reasons, including low phosphate.

But we still have not seen the torches. This is key to diagnosing the real issue. We are all just trying to help here.

Please don't hear my words as "you're a bad person for doing this," that is not my intent.

 

[Lavey29]

OP what are your complete current tank parameters, salinity and age of your tank? Light par? Flow?

 

[Pistondog]

Frag off any partially infected heads. Stay the course with the cipro, do not dip further as this adds to stress in an already compromised coral.
Stop any amino acids or carbon dosing as these may be helping causal bacteria.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

To clarify for everyone commenting, these were new corals added to the tank without being qt’ed, so that is likely how the infection was brought in. This was not something that started on its own out of nowhere, which leads me to believe this is not due to off parameters. When I said “I’ve done repeated in tank treatments with Cipro,” I meant I’ve not just dosed once and assumed it didn’t work. Based on treatment procedures posted on here by reputable members, Cipro requires multiple doses to work. I think some recommend dosing every other day for 1 week for a total of 3 doses. Others dose every day for a week. That is what I’ve done. I am not repeatedly dosing Cipro for weeks on end. I am following established protocols for dosing cipro. Making judgmental statements and accusations that dosing is being done irresponsibly or that my tank parameters must be off without adequate information is neither helpful nor friendly. I requested at the start of the thread for friendly advice. If you are not interested in providing friendly and informed advice, please don’t share. I’m not interested in being more stressed by judgmental and unfriendly advice when I’m already stressed about my expensive coral dying. There are ways to ask questions, provide advice, and still be friendly and respectful. I understand some people feel the need to share their strong opinions about certain topics, and that’s fine. But I’ve requested not to receive those types of messages here, and I hope that people will respect that. There are other numerous threads on R2R where you can share your strong opinions.

While I understand that parameters can be relevant, I believe this issue is the result of introducing new corals that were not quarantined into my system. That is my mistake, and I will qt corals in the future. I have probably 50 corals in my system. Only 3 have been affected, 2 of which were new corals. This leads me to believe that this is not a parameter issue, and rather a disease that was introduced via new additions. This is an established system that is usually pretty stable. I did see some phosphate spikes since dosing the antibiotic. I think this is because I stupidly left the skimmer cup off for the week of treatment rather than replacing it during the day, which allowed phosphates to build up. I’ve ran gfo to correct this. I am being careful not to bottom phosphates out. I assume that this phosphate spike possibly contributed to additional stress on the corals and could’ve impacted the efficacy of the treatment. I am going to be testing phosphates (which were consistently stable before treatment) daily now to ensure resumed stability.

Thank you for your help and respect, whether that be with your friendly and informed advice or with the omission of your uninformed or judgemental comments.

Alk: 8.0
Calc: 425
Mag: 1350
Temp: 78
pH: 8.0
Nitrate: 11.0
Phosphate: 0.08
Salinity: 1.026

 

[WrasseyReefer]

Please allow me to clarify my standpoint on this: I am in no way opposed to the use of antibiotics in our hobby. However, it is not responsible to repeatedly treat with Cipro. I will admit that I certainly am no expert with respect to antibiotics, and I think none of the individuals in this thread hold the necessary credentials to consider themselves experts either.

I will also state, for the record, that I frequently advocate for the use of Cipro in this hobby.

My point is simple: if it isn't working, please stop trying it repeatedly. It may not be BJD, and it may be that repeatedly throwing different antibiotics at the issue will not help you solve it. The Cipro treatment usually will show improvements the morning after the first dose, and I will confirm this from personal experience!

We must be responsible here. I will never say "Cipro should be prohibited." But it should be applied correctly.

For what it's worth, I've seen retracted polyps for other reasons, including low phosphate.

But we still have not seen the torches. This is key to diagnosing the real issue. We are all just trying to help here.

Please don't hear my words as "you're a bad person for doing this," that is not my intent.

There are no torches affected. I never said anything about torches or retracted polyps.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

You should figure out why you have brown jelly and correct it. Corals only get this when they are seriously unhappy or when something is seriously wrong. Why are so many different corals in your tank getting brown jelly?

There are three affected corals out of about 50 corals in my tank. Two of the affected corals are new additions. I wouldn’t call that “so many different corals in [my] tank”. Again, if you are not able to be friendly and nonjudgemental, please take your comments elsewhere. Thank you.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

Frag off any partially infected heads. Stay the course with the cipro, do not dip further as this adds to stress in an already compromised coral.
Stop any amino acids or carbon dosing as these may be helping causal bacteria.

Unfortunately, the affected corals are all non-branching corals (Goni, plate, Galaxea), as stated in the original post, so fragging isn’t an option. Thanks for the additional advice, though.