Chloroquine phosphate
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Jay Hemdal
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If you can find it, I think that is the same as chloroquine HCL (or close). The benefit of that is that it doesn’t add phosphate when dosing. I don’t think you’ll find it OTC right now though.
Jay
Jay
Finishing up fallow period for ich right now. Got 7 fish in a 29G holding tank that I'm going to use for treatment.
I have no space to set up a separate observation tank. I need to run treatment and then transfer directly to the DT with the assumption that 90+ days fallow should make it effectively sterile, as far as protozoan parasites are concerned.
It is an "established" tank, but I've been siphoning out sand and slowly removing live rock. It has a powerhead, airstone, heater, and HOB filter that constantly gets clogged with Chaeto.
I expect that I will have siphoned out all of the sand, pulled all of the live rock, and added sufficient pvc to accommodate all of the fish comfortably by the end of the day tomorrow.
My question is:
Should I treat using protocol 2, dosing 40mg/g on day one, then adding 4mg/g per day for 10 days? Can I modify this, and add 1.33mg/g per day for 30 days?
Should I assume removing live rock and sand will kill all the bio filtration, pull the HOB filter, dose 60mg/g once, change water after 15 days, replacing with water pre dosed to 60mg/g?
I have no space to set up a separate observation tank. I need to run treatment and then transfer directly to the DT with the assumption that 90+ days fallow should make it effectively sterile, as far as protozoan parasites are concerned.
It is an "established" tank, but I've been siphoning out sand and slowly removing live rock. It has a powerhead, airstone, heater, and HOB filter that constantly gets clogged with Chaeto.
I expect that I will have siphoned out all of the sand, pulled all of the live rock, and added sufficient pvc to accommodate all of the fish comfortably by the end of the day tomorrow.
My question is:
Should I treat using protocol 2, dosing 40mg/g on day one, then adding 4mg/g per day for 10 days? Can I modify this, and add 1.33mg/g per day for 30 days?
Should I assume removing live rock and sand will kill all the bio filtration, pull the HOB filter, dose 60mg/g once, change water after 15 days, replacing with water pre dosed to 60mg/g?
Shirak
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1.33mg/gal daily won’t give you the same medication level each day as 4mg so I would say no to that.
my understanding is you are supposed to start with a clean tank. That includes everything that might harbor bacteria that will break down the medication including tank walls
I saw that humblefish had remarked that the 60mg per gallon dosage in a totally new system had never failed him. I couldn't find any comments from him about the efficacy of the 40mg + 4mg a day for 10 days method.
Does protocol 2 provide reasonably good outcomes on ich when fish are immediately transferred to a sterile system without remedicating?
jasonrusso
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I'm confused about your process. Are you using 2 tanks? Why are you removing the sand and rocks? Are you saying that the 29G tank has sand and rocks and you are using that as a hospital tank, that's why you are removing the rocks? If that's the case, then yes, you are removing the biofilter. I use a foam air filter that I leave in my sump until I need it. I also leave a bag of ceramic media in my sump and throw some of them in the HOB because you can't use carbon. You also can't build a bacterial colony with CP in the water. If the HOB has been running for a while, you should have enough "funk" in the filer for a good bacterial colony.
CP is a dose one time process. Just dose the 50mg/g (at least that's what I use) at once. You don't need to ramp up.
Shirak
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I have used protocol 1 and frequent water changes with premedicated water. I prefer copper but had a fish that is copper sensitive.
@Humblefish knows his stuff so if protocol 2 is followed you should have good results. But he does say you should use an observation tank for a couple weeks or so just to be sure regardless of which protocol.
I have used protocol 1 but not 2 so can’t really answer other than it seems to work best when the fish are going into totally clean system with new water and medication
can you get a cheap Rubbermaid container to hold the fish for a short while so you can totally clean the 29g tank AND all equipment they are currently in and then go with protocol 1?
I'm removing rock and sand so they don't absorb CP in the hospital tank.
I have one 29g hospital tank, and one display tank.
The one time dose is not suggested for systems with an established biofilter. The ramp up is suggested for an established bio filter.
jasonrusso
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Ok, so you kind of have 2 DT tanks but are converting the 29G into a HT.
I've been doing this for years and I have never heard of the "ramp up" method. I'm not exactly sure what it is trying to accomplish. It's not like the bacteria is going to gain a resistance to CP over a few days.
CP has never really seemed to affect my foam filters and I never have any sort of ammonia issues, but I have always found it impossible to establish a bacteria colony with CP present.
The concern is that bacteria will degrade CP. The thinking is that it's very hard to determine the exact rate at which bacteria will break it down, but it is suspected that it breaks down at a rate slower than 4mg / day. Since CP is active between 20 and 80 mg / g, dosing 40, then dosing 4 mg per day for 10 days should hopefully maintain therapeutic concentrations for rates of depletion between 0mg and 6mg / gallon per day, with minimum and maximum concentrations of 20mg / gallon or 80mg / gallon.
This is the second protocol listed on the OP.
Shirak
Valuable Member
I think the problem is it’s hard to say how much your medication levels will be affected with protocol 2. I would at least get as much cleaned as best you can to minimize all potential areas for microorganisms to degrade the medication. Remove and clean all equipment that will be going back into the tank and throughly scrub the glass all around. I would also do as close to a total water change as you can do after scrubbing the glass.
Ross Petersen
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Hey all - curious if anyone has updates on the efficacy of Marex (CP and pyrimethamine)?
My fish in QT aren't eating much since dosing Marex. Two clowns and one hawk fish. Thinking about jumping back to copper power. Many thanks!
My fish in QT aren't eating much since dosing Marex. Two clowns and one hawk fish. Thinking about jumping back to copper power. Many thanks!
jasonrusso
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Supposedly parasites can travel in evaporated water. I'm skeptical myself.
Jay Hemdal
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aerosolized infective agents would be the concern. Water droplets can theoretically carry small disease causing organisms. I’m not sure if anyone has studied this enough to have a definite distance as being safe. I know that two tanks within a foot of each other can transfer diseases. Not sure how far apart they need to be though (grin). A much more common fomite for disease transmission is wetted surfaces: your hands, a fish net, etc.
Jay
tezaman
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Chloroquine Phosphate *** The information contained here is subject to changes as I experiment and learn more about Chloroquine Phosphate ***
What It Treats – Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum), Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum.
How To Buy – Chloroquine phosphate (CP) is an antimalarial drug for humans which also treats external parasites that afflict marine fish (and possibly freshwater fish as well.) However, there are a few challenges to overcome with CP. The very first is obtaining it because a prescription is usually required to buy pharmaceutical-grade CP. While pharmaceutical-grade is not an absolute requirement, the closer the medication is to being 99% pure the more effective it is. Many CP failures can be traced back to buying the medication on eBay or from some other unknown source. The best strategy for obtaining CP is to ask your local veterinarian for a prescription which can then be filled by a compounding pharmacy: https://www.diamondbackdrugs.com/chloroquine/
A backup plan is to buy from this source, which has tested 94-96% pure for me (although I cannot guarantee every batch from this source will test the same): https://store.nationalfishpharm.com/items/view/616/chloroquine-phosphate
Sometimes CP is dispensed in tablet form instead of powder. The tablets are fine to use, but the downside is you get less “chloroquine base” out of them so you must dose more. The following was taken from Bob Goemans online book, THE LIVING AQUARIUM MANUAL:
How To Dose – In most cases CP is dispensed in powder form, and a digital scale is needed to accurately measure the dosage (more info on that below). This is the one I use:
How To Treat – Okay, so you’ve got your CP + digital scale and are ready to dose! Well, this brings us to the next challenge to overcome: Bacteria and biofilm. All medications (except copper) that you dose into water are susceptible to biodegradation. With Chloroquine this can be a major problem because the medication needs to be at a therapeutic level at all times in order to be effective. Therefore, I highly recommend following one of these QT protocols when using CP:
CP Protocol #1 (preferred): Dose 15 mg/L (60 mg/gal) into a bare bottom, rockless QT (see pic below) and treat for 10 days. The tank (and all equipment) should have been cleaned/sterilized beforehand and no biological filtration should be used! The point is to limit the bacteria/biofilm found in the aquarium which could degrade CP. Ammonia can be controlled by dosing Prime/Amquel every 24-48 hours, or by doing water changes. (A Seachem ammonia alert badge can be used for active monitoring.) However, when performing a water change it is very important to dose CP back into any replacement water before adding it to the QT. This ensures that the concentration of medication in the QT remains therapeutic at all times. After 10 days, transfer the fish into an observation tank (see Posttreatment below) at least 3 m (10 feet) away from the QT.
CP Protocol # 2: If you must treat in an established QT with a working biofilter, then you should redose the medication to compensate for possible biodegradation. Start off by dosing 10 mg/L (40 mg/gal) and then subsequently dose 1 mg/L (4 mg/gal) every day thereafter. Daily redosing is ideal, but if that conflicts with your schedule then redosing 3 mg/L or 12 mg/gal every 3 days (for example) should still be adequate. CP has a wide therapeutic range (20-80 mg/gal), so the objective is to keep it within that concentration at all times. After 10 days, transfer the fish into an observation tank (see Posttreatment below) at least 3 m (10 feet) away from the QT.
Posttreatment – To ensure treatment has been successful, transfer the fish into a nonmedicated observation tank for 2-4 weeks. Never transfer the fish directly into your display tank! The point of the observation tank is to ensure treatment has been successful, and symptoms of parasites do not resurface. One way to accomplish this is by housing black mollies (more info) in your observation tank. A freshwater black molly will have no immunity whatsoever to marine diseases, thus making it probable for visible symptoms to show. And evidence of ectoparasites (e.g. ich, velvet, brook) will show up as white spots on a black molly or translucent if a tankmate has flukes.
Pros – Gentle on most fish. (DO NOT USE with Hippo Tangs, anthias and flasher wrasses.) CP treats most external protozoa, and is probably the closest thing there is to a “wonder drug” in our hobby.
Cons/Side Effects – Expensive, hard to get (requires a prescription), powder is heat & light sensitive – so store in a cool, dark place. CP is quickly removed from the water if carbon is used and even by certain filter pads which are made from polyfiber. The medication is also susceptible to biodegradation, which makes dosing in an established QT somewhat unpredictable.
Hi hello there . Excellent info ! I have a question thought
i just transferred all my fishes Yellow Tang and some Chromes into a HT of 30liters , i just got Chloroquine in tablets of 200mg ,
This is Day one , the dosage is 15mg CP /liter so ineed 450mg ,
the QUESTION IS , i will add 450mg to a bare bottom HT on day one and leave them in there for 4 weeks? no more dosage
i guess its One off process i add the CP and done with it, apparently on water changes do i have to add some mg's?
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jasonrusso
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It is a one time dose. If you do a water change, then you need to dose the water with the same 15mg/l.
Jay Hemdal
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Just to complicate matters:
Earlier this year, the Shedd Aquarium published a paper showing the chloroquine is degraded by bacteria the same as praziquantel. This went counter to my results, where I was able to measure chloroquine in seawater using an ultraviolet spectrophotometer. Later, I was told that when the bacteria breaks down the chloroquine, it leaves byproducts that still react with the UV spec and gives a false high reading.
It is likely similar to bacterial degradation of prazi, where subsequent doses in the same tank are consumed more quickly.
Here is the abstract to the paper:
www.sciencedirect.com
Jay
Earlier this year, the Shedd Aquarium published a paper showing the chloroquine is degraded by bacteria the same as praziquantel. This went counter to my results, where I was able to measure chloroquine in seawater using an ultraviolet spectrophotometer. Later, I was told that when the bacteria breaks down the chloroquine, it leaves byproducts that still react with the UV spec and gives a false high reading.
It is likely similar to bacterial degradation of prazi, where subsequent doses in the same tank are consumed more quickly.
Here is the abstract to the paper:
Towards understanding microbial degradation of chloroquine in large saltwater systems
Circulating saltwater aquariums hosting marine animals contain a wide range of microorganisms, which have strong implications on promoting animal heal…
Jay
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