Chemiclean 20% Water Change - Why

[taricha]

This is a bit speculative, but I'll go with it.

Erythromycin itself - as far as I can tell just from reading a whole bunch - should not have a huge O2-consuming effect. Yet, chemi-clean almost always drops O2, and this is anticipated in the instructions.
It makes me wonder if this product is delivering erythromycin with a bunch of excipients/fillers like might be in pills (which would be broken down in a tank and lower O2) and there is room for a better version of the product without the excipients that could deliver just the antibiotic and have much lower O2 drop.

(I could be wrong erythromycin itself might dramatically lower O2 in some way that escaped my searching on the topic. )

 

[MarineandReef Jaron]

I have been told by Boyd what is in chemiclean but have been asked not to share the formula so I will not. It is not a traditional antibiotic. The active ingredient is an oxidizer similar to Ozone, Peroxide, and Potassium Permanganate. Oxidizers like this have been used for years with some people continually using oxidizers like ozone. Yes this is a chemical but it is not like a traditional antibiotic at all. Technically all aquarium additives are "chemicals".

Like any oxidizer if you overdose it you will kill everything in the aquarium. However, oxidizers have been used for decades and are used by some of the most successful home and public aquarists. Chemiclean will drive you skimmer crazy after use and performing the water change will reduce the levels so your skimmer will more quickly return to normal. If you don't do the water change you might be forced to by dumping out the water in your skimmer cup for a couple of days.

 

[taricha]

@MarineandReef Jaron thanks for sharing this. Really.
I'm skeptical in the extreme of every aspect of that explanation.

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

I’ve pondered the same question, why remove 20% of the water? Seems arbitrary and useless no matter how you think about.

Exactly! I've made all the graphs myself to understand the effects daily/weekly/monthly 1%/5%/10%/20% etc water changes have on pollutants. Also obviously read RHF articles on it. Based on that, ONE 20% water change... it's just tough to wrap my head around conceptually!

BTW - thank you for reviving this thread everyone, I still am confused on the topic and any information helps. @MarineandReef Jaron thanks especially for that good information!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have been told by Boyd what is in chemiclean but have been asked not to share the formula so I will not. It is not a traditional antibiotic. The active ingredient is an oxidizer similar to Ozone, Peroxide, and Potassium Permanganate. Oxidizers like this have been used for years with some people continually using oxidizers like ozone. Yes this is a chemical but it is not like a traditional antibiotic at all. Technically all aquarium additives are "chemicals".

Like any oxidizer if you overdose it you will kill everything in the aquarium. However, oxidizers have been used for decades and are used by some of the most successful home and public aquarists. Chemiclean will drive you skimmer crazy after use and performing the water change will reduce the levels so your skimmer will more quickly return to normal. If you don't do the water change you might be forced to by dumping out the water in your skimmer cup for a couple of days.

Did he mention the court case in Germany where it was shown to be erythromycin?

I agree with taricha. That explanation that they have been spouting for years is not even a very good fake.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is a bit speculative, but I'll go with it.

Erythromycin itself - as far as I can tell just from reading a whole bunch - should not have a huge O2-consuming effect. Yet, chemi-clean almost always drops O2, and this is anticipated in the instructions.
It makes me wonder if this product is delivering erythromycin with a bunch of excipients/fillers like might be in pills (which would be broken down in a tank and lower O2) and there is room for a better version of the product without the excipients that could deliver just the antibiotic and have much lower O2 drop.

(I could be wrong erythromycin itself might dramatically lower O2 in some way that escaped my searching on the topic. )

That may well be the case.

 

[MarineandReef Jaron]

Did he mention the court case in Germany where it was shown to be erythromycin?

I agree with taricha. That explanation that they have been spouting for years is not even a very good fake.

All I know was I needed a legal engredient list for export that required the actual formula. On the legal document Boyd's provided there was no erythromycin listed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

All I know was I needed a legal engredient list for export that required the actual formula. On the legal document Boyd's provided there was no erythromycin listed.

And that was the nature of the case in Germany as well. No mention of a regulated antibiotic that the local government found in it: erythromycin.

Anyway, I cannot be sure what is in it, of course, just reporting what others have found, coupled with the implausibility of the claimed mechanism.

It would be interesting for someone to test the ORP of the product and in seawater it is added to.

 

[biom]

All we need is one of this Milk Erythromycin Rapid Test Kit to solve this mystery :0)

I have been told by Boyd what is in chemiclean but have been asked not to share the formula so I will not. It is not a traditional antibiotic. The active ingredient is an oxidizer similar to Ozone, Peroxide, and Potassium Permanganate. Oxidizers like this have been used for years with some people continually using oxidizers like ozone.

I've used Ozone, peroxide for years and never experienced such an fast effect on cyano as chemiclean does. And don't think there is such an oxidizer that would kill only cyano but not other algae

 

[MarineandReef Jaron]

All we need is one of this Milk Erythromycin Rapid Test Kit to solve this mystery :0)

I've used Ozone, peroxide for years and never experienced such an fast effect on cyano as chemiclean does. And don't think there is such an oxidizer that would kill only cyano but not other algae

I will not say what the ingredient is, but I will say that when I use Potassium Permaginate in Ponds It will remove green water and slime without bothering "Rooted Algae" on surfaces or damaging water plants. There is likely some protection the more complex algae have compared to the bacteria that make them more difficult for the oxidizer to kill.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I tracked cyano and green algae (and many other things) when I initiated ozone for a series of articles. It had no impact on the patch of cyano I had.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m very curious for someone to measure the ORP effect of the Chemiclean. Maybe I’ll start another thread asking for folks to check.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe someone will take some measurements:

Help needed with Chemiclean and ORP

The manufacturer claimed mechanism of Chemiclean is by oxidation of Cyanobacteria, rather than the suspected mechanism of an antibiotic. While it is not proof of the mechanism one way or the other, ORP measurements should at least indicate whether oxidation is plausible. I’d appreciate seeing...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sure, I get the rationalization, but leaving 80% of the ChemiClean in the aquarium is not getting a substantial amount of material out, hence, the idea that the water change is a feel good activity.

I suspect that 20% was a marketing decision between doing something to remove the active agent and toxins released from dead cyano, and recommending a really useful level of water change that would turn off potential buyers with tanks bigger than a 20 gallon.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe someone will take some measurements:

Help needed with Chemiclean and ORP

The manufacturer claimed mechanism of Chemiclean is by oxidation of Cyanobacteria, rather than the suspected mechanism of an antibiotic. While it is not proof of the mechanism one way or the other, ORP measurements should at least indicate whether oxidation is plausible. I’d appreciate seeing...

www.reef2reef.com

taricha took some measurements in the above thread, and the claim of an oxidizer in the product is not immediately supported.

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

I suspect that 20% was a marketing decision between doing something to remove the active agent and toxins released from dead cyano, and recommending a really useful level of water change that would turn off potential buyers with tanks bigger than a 20 gallon.

Spot on! Thanks for going all in on this investigation! Looking fwd to the ORP study.

 

[areefer01]

Best practices should be developed for unforseen problems. Just because you are not guaranteed to encounter an issue, doesn't mean a best practice shouldn't be developed for it. I.e., the "goal" is to have healthy, pest-free corals, that doesn't mean you shouldn't have a best practice for anti-bacterial/pest-removal dips.

But at the same time it doesn't mean going the route of chemical euphoria. As with many things in life the best practice is to understand how one got into the situation. Then we reflect and introduce change behaviors to prevent.

Wheel goes round and round...

 

[buruskeee]

Was on the same page of no chemicals as long as ive been reefing (not long only three years) but after 1.5 years with my new build, 65 gallons mixed reef started with dry rock i found myself battling over and over again with the uglies. No cyano for the first one and half year but all the other nuisance you can think of. I dont wanna go over all my routine and housbandry but i believe ive done a lot and have preatty decent setup but still i run into a massive gha outbreak. After talking to my lfs owner decided to give brightwell razor a try, was rough on the tank but gha and bubble gone. Everything survived. After that came cyano and i was all over it dosing bacteria and doing my best to beat it. Still didnt go away.
so… i treated with chemiclean and after three days is all gone. Tank is looking better than ever and even the numbers are balancing, used to have UL readings and finally got some no3 (my guess is the algae and cyano were getting before i could test for it)
Im not saying this products are the answer but for me it worked, now i can focus on keeping the tank looking great and enjoy it instead of freaking out and feel like the battle is never going to end.
Just did a big WC, added carbon, turn UV back on and put the skimmer cup so i can take the product out of the system. (I did make sure there was a LOT of oxygen during the treatment)
Is it a band aid? Maybe, but for me the cons and pros was worth it.
if anyone is interested feel free to ask me in a few months how the tank is going.

So how’s the tank going?

 

[arc.flash788]

Was on the same page of no chemicals as long as ive been reefing (not long only three years) but after 1.5 years with my new build, 65 gallons mixed reef started with dry rock i found myself battling over and over again with the uglies. No cyano for the first one and half year but all the other nuisance you can think of. I dont wanna go over all my routine and housbandry but i believe ive done a lot and have preatty decent setup but still i run into a massive gha outbreak. After talking to my lfs owner decided to give brightwell razor a try, was rough on the tank but gha and bubble gone. Everything survived. After that came cyano and i was all over it dosing bacteria and doing my best to beat it. Still didnt go away.
so… i treated with chemiclean and after three days is all gone. Tank is looking better than ever and even the numbers are balancing, used to have UL readings and finally got some no3 (my guess is the algae and cyano were getting before i could test for it)
Im not saying this products are the answer but for me it worked, now i can focus on keeping the tank looking great and enjoy it instead of freaking out and feel like the battle is never going to end.
Just did a big WC, added carbon, turn UV back on and put the skimmer cup so i can take the product out of the system. (I did make sure there was a LOT of oxygen during the treatment)
Is it a band aid? Maybe, but for me the cons and pros was worth it.
if anyone is interested feel free to ask me in a few months how the tank is going.

How’s it going?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How’s it going?

He's not been on in nearly a year, so don't wait up for a response.