Can stray current kill coral even with grounding probe?

[Beefyreefy]

Wasn’t sure what forum to put this in so mods please move it if need be. Just like the title says, can stray voltage kill coral even if you have a grounding probe? I recently lost a metric crap ton of coral due to a failed wavemaker (see my other post) and I’ve stirred up an argument as to wether or not a voltage leak can kill coral if the tank has a grounding probe? I know this was happening because I was shocked when I touched the grounding probe. I traced the problem to a wavemaker with the power wire exposed to the saltwater, the plastic had disintegrated. I suppose the other possibility is copper contamination but I didn’t check for this, I simply went into action, removing the pump and doing many large water changes. I did the water changes mainly because many of my extremely large colonies began to rapidly die and foul the water, not necessarily because I was worried bout copper contamination, although the thought crossed my mind. Also, the exposed section of wire was very small and only specific corals were mad. The unaffected corals are now alive and thriving. So what do you think, could the electricity be the cause here? Or copper? Was thinking Randy Holmes has a good answer but didn’t think this was chemistry, per say.

 

[JZ199]

From my understanding grounding probes are mostly used to protect you. They provide a path for the wherever the stray current is to travel through the water and into the probe, minimizing the risk of shock for us... Unfortunately for the corals and livestock, this is still causing/allowing electricity to flow through the water to reach the grounding probe.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Wasn’t sure what forum to put this in so mods please move it if need be. Just like the title says, can stray voltage kill coral even if you have a grounding probe? I recently lost a metric crap ton of coral due to a failed wavemaker (see my other post) and I’ve stirred up an argument as to wether or not a voltage leak can kill coral if the tank has a grounding probe? I know this was happening because I was shocked when I touched the grounding probe. I traced the problem to a wavemaker with the power wire exposed to the saltwater, the plastic had disintegrated. I suppose the other possibility is copper contamination but I didn’t check for this, I simply went into action, removing the pump and doing many large water changes. I did the water changes mainly because many of my extremely large colonies began to rapidly die and foul the water, not necessarily because I was worried bout copper contamination, although the thought crossed my mind. Also, the exposed section of wire was very small and only specific corals were mad. The unaffected corals are now alive and thriving. So what do you think, could the electricity be the cause here? Or copper? Was thinking Randy Holmes has a good answer but didn’t think this was chemistry, per say.View attachment 2974972

Oh no !!!!
And the answer is yes especially if ground probe is not properly grounded
Sorry to see this- I dont even know how i'd react

 

[Beefyreefy]

From my understanding grounding probes are mostly used to protect you. They provide a path for the stray current to travel through the water and into the probe, minimizing the risk of shock for us... Unfortunately for the corals and livestock, this is still causing/allowing electricity to flow through the water to reach the grounding probe.

Yes this was my understanding as well, but I’ve encountered some thoughts that the electricity shouldn’t do anything with a grounding probe in place.

 

[Reef and Dive]

Yes this was my understanding as well, but I’ve encountered some thoughts that the electricity shouldn’t do anything with a grounding probe in place.

Without the grounding probe there is no current. With one there is… Not my area of expertise, but I believe not having one actually protects the corals (but not the person touching the water).

 

[Sral]

Without the grounding probe there is no current. With one there is… Not my area of expertise, but I believe not having one actually protects the corals (but not the person touching the water).

Sounds about right. Usually your tank is not well grounded, so not much current going through the water. Only electric probes like pH, EC and ORP will likely go haywire due to the voltage on the water.

As soon as you or a grounding probe touches the water it provides a current path. The voltage will likely drop, that's why a grounding probe (or electrocuting yourself) helps stabilize electric probes like pH, EC and ORP, but you have much more current.
This is for example why I use an FI switch for my whole system. It might be cheap, but its better than nothing protecting myself and any inhabitants in the tank.

Whether that current would even go through your corals and kill them I have no idea, but electrified copper touching salt water sounds like it could rapidly attack the copper and dissolve parts of it, like reverse galvanic coating.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry to hear about your loses.

To be honest, there's a lot of commentary around this issue and almost no evidence.

There is also a lot of different opinions of what stray voltage and current even are in a reef tank.

I'll make a few comments...

1. What folks often refer to as "stray" voltage is a voltage induced in the water by other nearby electric or EM fields. For example, if you move a positive charge up next to salt water, the ions in the salt water will rearrange a bit in response to it and set up a sort of mirror charge in the water (which is true of any conductor and is a common math problem in physics).

2. If that electric field outside the water is varying with time, then the ions in the water will respond to those changes with additional movement, causing what might be called a current in the water.

3. I have never seen any evidence that such a movement of ions in the water negatively impacts any reef tank inhabitants. But I cannot prove it does not, and in theory, I'm sure if the field were large enough and strong enough, it could be a problem. I personally do not consider this a substantial risk unless you tank is adjacent to something like a big electrical motor.

4. IF something happens that exposes an electrified conductor in the tank, then the scenario is very different and things can go bad fast. A broken heater, powerhead casing, cord, etc. In that case two things happen.

A. A substantial current can flow in the water, around or even through organisms (probably mostly around in seawater, which is a better conductor than organism tissues due to the higher salt content). That current itself might be a concern in some scenarios, but there's little data on this aspect.

B. At the ends of the current path, meaning at the exposed electrified conductor and wherever it is going, such as a ground) electrochemistry will take place. Two of the biggst potential problems are formation of chlorine (Cl2 from chloride) and dissolution of metals such as copper from the conductor (Cu metal --> Cu+ or Cu++ ions).

 

[Beefyreefy]

Sorry to hear about your loses.

To be honest, there's a lot of commentary around this issue and almost no evidence.

There is also a lot of different opinions of what stray voltage and current even are in a reef tank.

I'll make a few comments...

1. What folks often refer to as "stray" voltage is a voltage induced in the water by other nearby electric or EM fields. For example, if you move a positive charge up next to salt water, the ions in the salt water will rearrange a bit in response to it and set up a sort of mirror charge in the water (which is true of any conductor and is a common math problem in physics).

2. If that electric field outside the water is varying with time, then the ions in the water will respond to those changes with additional movement, causing what might be called a current in the water.

3. I have never seen any evidence that such a movement of ions in the water negatively impacts any reef tank inhabitants. But I cannot prove it does not, and in theory, I'm sure if the field were large enough and strong enough, it could be a problem. I personally do not consider this a substantial risk unless you tank is adjacent to something like a big electrical motor.

4. IF something happens that exposes an electrified conductor in the tank, then the scenario is very different and things can go bad fast. A broken heater, powerhead casing, cord, etc. In that case two things happen.

A. A substantial current can flow in the water, around or even through organisms (probably mostly around in seawater, which is a better conductor than organism tissues due to the higher salt content). That current itself might be a concern in some scenarios, but there's little data on this aspect.

B. At the ends of the current path, meaning at the exposed electrified conductor and wherever it is going, such as a ground) electrochemistry will take place. Two of the biggst potential problems are formation of chlorine (Cl2 from chloride) and dissolution of metals such as copper from the conductor (Cu metal --> Cu+ or Cu++ ions).

Thanks Randy, ok my college chemistry is coming back to me after reading this. I suppose the end result here is that an exposed copper wire supplying current to the tank can potentially be bad on a number of fronts, lol, not all of them being certain. I can assure everyone after this event that either way you should check any power wires going into the tank water every so often. I’m 100% sure at this point that this was the problem, I’m just not sure what aspect of it killed a large portion of my coral. Thanks everyone, I’m looking forward to restocking. I’m also going to use the diminished live stock as an excuse to make a new stand and perhaps a new tank as well. With adversity comes new opportunity!

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am going to add this -

Under no circumstances should you place a ground probe in your aquarium unless EVERY piece of equipment on, in or near that aquarium is protected with a functioning GFCI. The probe is there to trip the GFCI at the onset of fault current - NOT act as a true current path to carry current to ground.

Without the GFCI - the ground probe creates a devastatingly dangerous situation where YOU become the wire between the fault and the tank (and ground) or the faulted and grounded tank provides a better path to ground through you to the probe than your shoed feet.

 

[Beefyreefy]

I am going to add this -

Under no circumstances should you place a ground probe in your aquarium unless EVERY piece of equipment on, in or near that aquarium is protected with a functioning GFCI. The probe is there to trip the GFCI at the onset of fault current - NOT act as a true current path to carry current to ground.

Without the GFCI - the ground probe creates a devastatingly dangerous situation where YOU become the wire between the fault and the tank (and ground) or the faulted and grounded tank provides a better path to ground through you to the probe than your shoed feet.

Yes. I definitely learned this the hard way. Lost a lot of coral and got walloped like a donkey kick when I touched the ground probe. Currently revamping the system and fixing my previous mistakes. My tank is no longer jam packed so I’m using the opportunity to renovate the system.

 

[Steve Zee]

This comment from BeanAnimal needs to be said out loud and understood because this is 100% correct:

“Under no circumstances should you place a ground probe in your aquarium unless EVERY piece of equipment on, in or near that aquarium is protected with a functioning GFCI. The probe is there to trip the GFCI at the onset of fault current - NOT act as a true current path to carry current to ground.

Without the GFCI - the ground probe creates a devastatingly dangerous situation where YOU become the wire between the fault and the tank (and ground) or the faulted and grounded tank provides a better path to ground through you to the probe than your shoed feet”

 

[Lasse]

I traced the problem to a wavemaker with the power wire exposed to the saltwater

Exposed cupper wires in saltwater will create a lot of copper coming out into the water. I would bet my 2 cents on copper poisoning.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Icryhard]

Oh no !!!!
And the answer is yes especially if ground probe is not properly grounded
Sorry to see this- I dont even know how i'd react

So stray voltage can affect corals, but not fish due to them not being grounded? because if so, I'll know why a baillout possibly could've happened to one of my corals. My values look to be just fine, but I can feel stray voltage in the water when I put my hand in. I figured it wouldn't be that bad.

 

[vetteguy53081]

So stray voltage can affect corals, but not fish due to them not being grounded? because if so, I'll know why a baillout possibly could've happened to one of my corals. My values look to be just fine, but I can feel stray voltage in the water when I put my hand in. I figured it wouldn't be that bad.

I dont think coral are grounded and will not cause bailout. Bailout often happens when there is too much flow pulling the flesh off skeleton, Insufficient nutrients, stress, elevated alk-ph-salinity-temperature and phos and also low calcium.

 

[Icryhard]

I dont think coral are grounded and will not cause bailout. Bailout often happens when there is too much flow pulling the flesh off skeleton, Insufficient nutrients, stress, elevated alk-ph-salinity-temperature and phos and also low calcium.

Crapp, my calcium was on the low side and as my previous comment stated: A little stray voltage running through water. If the stray voltage isn't it, then it must be my calcium. Everything else looks to be fine. Only my calcium was quite low, 350. The flow was barely anything since you helped me out and it was very much happy about it and my newly bought torches love the flow too!