Can a Mandarin throw a reef out of balance?

[Homebrewer]

Hi friends, been a while since I posted but I have a question. First some background....

I have a 65G mixed reef tank that's been up and running for almost 18 years. I've had a lot of success keeping it simple, started with a ton of old school live rock, a canister filter (I know, right?) and a HOB skimmer. I piped an RO/DI system off a line in my basement, and I do 10G water changes monthly, along with an hour or so of maintenance. I feed a variety of frozen foods, plus occasionally live brine and pellet. Say what you will about my setup, but it's been relatively bullet proof for almost two decades. As a footnote, my mated clown pair just turned 18 years old (carryover from my first tank)!

ANYWHO, I've always wanted a mandarin and I added one a little less than a year ago. I know, I know, I don't have a sump or a fuge but my pod situation seemed to be able to support one so I went for it. The mandarin is healthy, eats whatever, grazes all day (typical behavior), and he's just awesome to watch. However, since adding him I've had some various issues in my tank. I noticed for the first time in a billion years that I've had some brown stuff (diatoms, etc.) on my sand, and I even had a bout of cyano run through the tank (since eradicated). I recently lost a dragon soul favia, and now some of my chalices are taking a hit, PLUS I'm seeing GHA creep up every now and again. No other additions to the tank, coral or otherwise, since adding him.

My theory is that the mandarin is consuming enough copepods to sustain himself, but it has decreased the overall population of pods in my tank to the point where now the tank is suffering. If I have to sell it off for the betterment of the tank, I will. I'm not going to add a fuge, sump, etc., so it is what it is.

Anyone have any thoughts/opinions/experiences on the matter?

Thanks in advance,
Homebrewer

 

[Paul B]

I doubt a mandarin will cause anything bad. I have always had two of them along with a pair of ruby red dragonettes and a pair of scooter dragonettes and my reef is fine. It's also 54 years old, no problems yet.

 

[bubbgee]

My experience is no, but less pods will mean a bit more algae and detritus which happened to me. you'll just have to manage it differently. I grow my pods and feed frozen cyclops to compensate.

 

[Homebrewer]

Thanks, @Paul B

What are your thoughts, though, given that I don't have a sump/fuge? If the pod population is slowly declining because of insufficient capability of the system to replenish itself with pods, would that explain some of what I'm seeing in go on in my tank?

 

[Homebrewer]

My experience is no, but less pods will mean a bit more algae and detritus which happened to me. you'll just have to manage it differently. I grow my pods and feed frozen cyclops to compensate.

Before you started growing/adding pods, what did your tank look like? What ill effects were you seeing?

 

[kvansloo]

Start adding Pods and dose Phytoplankton

 

[PotatoPig]

IMO very unlikely unless you’re running a very barren scape with no sand - total negative space architecture.

Mandarins generally only eat pods, but not only mandarins eat pods.

All your planktivore fish will snack on copepods as they come across them, your corals eat copepods, any sponges you have eats copepods, shrimp eat copepods, crabs eat copepods, amphipods eat copepods, even copepods eat copepods.

Provided you have a decent quantity of rockwork and don’t starve your tank down to ULNS levels I find it hard to believe a mandarin would throw things off like this.

 

[Homebrewer]

IMO very unlikely unless you’re running a very barren scape with no sand - total negative space architecture.

Mandarins generally only eat pods, but not only mandarins eat pods.

All your planktivore fish will snack on copepods as they come across them, your corals eat copepods, any sponges you have eats copepods, shrimp eat copepods, crabs eat copepods, amphipods eat copepods, even copepods eat copepods.

Provided you have a decent quantity of rockwork and don’t starve your tank down to ULNS levels I find it hard to believe a mandarin would throw things off like this.

Very useful, helpful opinion. Thanks for these thoughts.

I do have an ornate leopard wrasse but had him for years prior to adding the mandarin. I also have 2 fire shrimp and 1 cleaner shrimp. I guess my theory is that things were in balance pod-wise until I added the mandarin, which has tipped the scales, but your post makes me re-think this theory.

Nevertheless, I might try and start dosing phyto again (I haven't done that for a while) and maybe buy some pods from the LFS to boost the population and see if that makes a difference.

Thanks again!

 

[Paul B]

What are your thoughts, though, given that I don't have a sump/fuge?

I have never added or bought a pod in my life and I don't have a fuge or refugium. I also have never dosed Phyto. As long as you don't medicate anything in your tank, the pods should grow like crazy. You may want to throw some sinking pellets in there to feed them in a place where the fish can't get to.

I have 50+ fish in my 125 gallon tank

 

[Homebrewer]

I have never added or bought a pod in my life and I don't have a fuge or refugium. I also have never dosed Phyto. As long as you don't medicate anything in your tank, the pods should grow like crazy. You may want to throw some sinking pellets in there to feed them in a place where the fish can't get to.

I have 50+ fish in my 125 gallon tank

Thanks, Paul, as always, for your valuable input and sharing your experience.

 

[bubbgee]

Before you started growing/adding pods, what did your tank look like? What ill effects were you seeing?

Like everyone else, dry rock and some algae. That's where most of us start and add pods as clean up crew.
No ill effects. Presence of pods is a sign of a healthy reef. Mandarin ate a lot of pods and just have to replenish it by adding more and dosing phyto.

 

[Homebrewer]

Like everyone else, dry rock and some algae. That's where most of us start and add pods as clean up crew.
No ill effects. Presence of pods is a sign of a healthy reef. Mandarin ate a lot of pods and just have to replenish it by adding more and dosing phyto.

Thanks for the reply. Sounds like I should try dosing phyto more and see if that makes a positive difference. If it does, it may be a pod/balance issue.

Appreciate the input!

 

[PotatoPig]

I have 50+ fish in my 125 gallon tank

What type of fish for this level of stocking?

 

[Jimbo327]

Just add some pods and phyto.

 

[Tavero]

OP you have discussed copepod populations and accused the mandarin, which is a valid opinion. But what about the most important stuff, you water parameters.

The whole story sounds to me like the "old tank syndrome" which can be an accumulation of detrius or phosphate deposits, a depletion of trace elements or ion imbalance, or change in flow/light due to matured corals.

First of all what are your water parameters? Have you done an icp oes?

 

[SAY]

I believe that it is possible. If your mandarin is consuming more copepods than is being produced, I believe that the balance can be thrown off. Just because one person's tank is not experiencing this, does not mean that this is not happening in your tank.

 

[Homebrewer]

OP you have discussed copepod populations and accused the mandarin, which is a valid opinion. But what about the most important stuff, you water parameters.

The whole story sounds to me like the "old tank syndrome" which can be an accumulation of detrius or phosphate deposits, a depletion of trace elements or ion imbalance, or change in flow/light due to matured corals.

First of all what are your water parameters? Have you done an icp oes?

Valid points, all of them.

No, I have not done ICP, and agree that might tell me a lot. I freely admit there is a lot that I don't know and this could be due to something I'm not thinking about and/or something I'm not seeing.

I keep track using Aquarimate, and everything over the past few years has been steady. But to give you an idea here the latest parameters read as follows:
Nitrate: 13.5 (Hanna)
Phosphate: 0.07 (Hanna)
Calcium: 460 (Hanna)
Alkalinity: 8.7 (Hanna)
Magnesium: 1350 (AquaForest)
Salinity: 1.026 (refractometer calibrated w/ BRS 35ppt calibration fluid)
pH: 8.14 (pHep+)
Temperature: 79.2 (pHep+, and thermometer)

I rotate feeding about 6-8 different kinds of frozen food, once daily, at night, and I use Hikari almost exclusively as I am a big believer in the cleanliness and nutritional value of their food.

I dose ESV 2-Part, about 18mL per day of each, divided into 12 doses each over 24-hour period (i.e., every 2 hours, 5 mins apart from each other). I acknowledge that ESV does contain trace elements, which over time absolutely can accumulate. I do perform 10G water changes monthly, and I use AquaForest salt mix (regular stuff, no enzymes or anything like that).

My tank is in my family room and I'm looking at it every single day, and the only thing that I can remember adding that made a difference in the appearance and health of my tank (in a before/after kind of way) was the Mandarin.

Appreciate any further thoughts you might have.

 

[bubbgee]

Thanks for the reply. Sounds like I should try dosing phyto more and see if that makes a positive difference. If it does, it may be a pod/balance issue.

Appreciate the input!

Aside from pytho, i used Reef Enhance and it helps with growing pods in your tank.

 

[Homebrewer]

I believe that it is possible. If your mandarin is consuming more copepods than is being produced, I believe that the balance can be thrown off. Just because one person's tank is not experiencing this, does not mean that this is not happening in your tank.

Thanks for your thoughts on this. If this is an unusual situation, I would say that it might be because I do not have a sump/fuge to help with the population. That could explain why I may be seeing this while many others don't. Paul B doesn't seem to have this problem, but then again, his tank is legendary and would be an insult to the reefing community to compare mine to his!

 

[Homebrewer]

Aside from pytho, i used Reef Enhance and it helps with growing pods in your tank.

Appreciate the tip! I've never used this stuff, but I'm gonna read up on it now. Thanks!