Build cost of a Negative Space Aquascape - wow!

[bryan3536]

I'm not 100% sure of your goal. If you're wanting to build the rock structure outside the tank, emarco is your best bet over superglue and epoxy. Not sure the cost savings. I used 2 buckets on my 300g and needed a little more hence the last minute hasty decision to trust a post in the forums.

Outside the tank. The method in the BRS video I referenced in the OP is dry rock, put together outside the tank, using thick CA glue (with accelerator) for the initial set/placement, then reinforced with epoxy (rolled into a thin tube and pushed into the seams, with a little CA for good measure). BRS used a small piece of marco rock to rough up the epoxy before it set, and then used thin CA glue and crushed marco dust (not sand) to coat and hide the epoxy. The finished product looked great - the use of the marco dust rather than sand made it really look seamless (it even covered dark gray epoxy), and the use of epoxy rather than a mortar mix made it seem really easy to do. However, it was the cost of the epoxy - they used 22 4oz sticks for a 120g scape build - that prompted my post in the first place.

Based on the videos I've seen if you get the mortar mix right (not too wet) I might be able to mimic the texture of epoxy and massage it into the seams over the CA glue bond, which I almost view as temporary in this method. I will pick up a bucket of that and try it out. This morning I also picked up some "PC Plumbing Epoxy Putty" - which says it is safe for potable drinking water and works in fresh and saltwater - and for $6, which is about 1/2 the price of the aquarium stuff. I am going to do some research (and post that here) but I am thinking that will be fine for an aquarium (it will be fully cured before it goes into the tank).

PC-Plumbing High Strength Off White Epoxy 2 oz Mfr# 025598 - Ace Hardware

PC-Plumbing is a hand moldable putty epoxy designed for quick emergency-type repairs. PC-Plumbing is NSF rated safe for contact with potable water. PC-Plumbing can be applied to wet and dry surfaces. Cut, mix and apply. PC-Plumbing allows a working time of about 3 minutes and cures for service...

www.acehardware.com

 

[areefer01]

Probably worth noting that negative aquascape has its own drawbacks outside of the product cost to create it (which can be addressed as already noted herein).

Might be worth researching the side effects of the surface area loss both short and long term.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I think cleaning all the dust and powder off the rock before building is important, having that contamination between pieces weakens the joint no matter what you use

All things being equal, I didn't do anything different from the emarco to the hydraulic cement, however after 1 year that stuff crumbled. I can assure you that it had nothing to do with the surface it stuck to.

Just the other day I slid the center rock that's comprised of at least 80lbs of various sizes of rock over and to my amazement it felt extremely sturdy.

Pertaining to this subject, you definitely sound like you know what's what. But it would take a lot of convincing to make me change my mind that emarco is the only thing worth its weight to bond rocks together in a reef aquarium.

Outside the tank. The method in the BRS video I referenced in the OP is dry rock, put together outside the tank, using thick CA glue (with accelerator) for the initial set/placement, then reinforced with epoxy (rolled into a thin tube and pushed into the seams, with a little CA for good measure). BRS used a small piece of marco rock to rough up the epoxy before it set, and then used thin CA glue and crushed marco dust (not sand) to coat and hide the epoxy. The finished product looked great - the use of the marco dust rather than sand made it really look seamless (it even covered dark gray epoxy), and the use of epoxy rather than a mortar mix made it seem really easy to do. However, it was the cost of the epoxy - they used 22 4oz sticks for a 120g scape build - that prompted my post in the first place.

Based on the videos I've seen if you get the mortar mix right (not too wet) I might be able to mimic the texture of epoxy and massage it into the seams over the CA glue bond, which I almost view as temporary in this method. I will pick up a bucket of that and try it out. This morning I also picked up some "PC Plumbing Epoxy Putty" - which says it is safe for potable drinking water and works in fresh and saltwater - and for $6, which is about 1/2 the price of the aquarium stuff. I am going to do some research (and post that here) but I am thinking that will be fine for an aquarium (it will be fully cured before it goes into the tank).

PC-Plumbing High Strength Off White Epoxy 2 oz Mfr# 025598 - Ace Hardware

PC-Plumbing is a hand moldable putty epoxy designed for quick emergency-type repairs. PC-Plumbing is NSF rated safe for contact with potable water. PC-Plumbing can be applied to wet and dry surfaces. Cut, mix and apply. PC-Plumbing allows a working time of about 3 minutes and cures for service...

www.acehardware.com

In my opinion a lot of the stuff that brs puts out is tailored for the tourist type hobbyist. And I don't mean that as a dig. It seems that the take away is to have a rockscape that looks seamless.

Now some of the tricks they employ like using rock rubble to emboss a rough surface isn't anything new. However unless you're planning on keeping your rock pristine and free of corals, a lot of the focus doesn't need to be on seamless transitions from rock or hiding different colors of putty and glue. After a few months your rock work will get covered with bacteria and coralline which is going to hide all that hard work you put into it.

Then, If you're successful which I'm sure you will be, in a couple years you'd have to look hard to find any of your rockwork while you're fighting to find room for that new coral you just purchased.

I think a lot of people in the hobby fall victim to these types of tactics and lose focus of what the end result will be.

I've never done a rockscape with superglue and putty, I don't see why it wouldn't.

In my mind, emarco is the better choice when building a rock structure outside the tank.

 

[billyocean]

Glue masters liquid glue and fine sand.

No accelerator. No insta set. No mortar.

Find Tidal Garden‘s video on YouTube My aquascape was made with that method and I’d never go to another method.

Same. Used the gluemasters thin and crushed rock..powder like. It forms an instant bond. The rock will break before the bond does. It's all you need. Btw gluemasters isn't your regular CA glue..it will burn the hell out of you if you aren't careful.

 

[NE reefer]

I used mixtures of liquid super glue and fine sand in layers to make initial bond then went over bonded area with Marco cement. Super glue at the dollar store and Marco cement at LFS is very affordable. If you are willing to take your time you can build great structures.

 

[miran2782]

I KNEW I recognized the smell of quick set activator but had never placed it as acetone. Thanks.

I believe the acetone is just a transport mechanism because it evaporates very quickly and there are other ingredients to neutralize the acid in the CA glue which is what causes it to cure/set. That is why the baking soda works the way it does.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Don't know what the second one is.

I believe the acetone is just a transport mechanism because it evaporates very quickly and there are other ingredients to neutralize the acid in the CA glue which is what causes it to cure/set. That is why the baking soda works the way it does.

 

[reddogf5]

... But it would take a lot of convincing to make me change my mind that emarco is the only thing worth its weight to bond rocks together in a reef aquarium.

I wouldn't dream of trying, this hobby has enough difficulties to waste time persuading someone to abandon something that works for them. Like most things in life, it's a matter of time, money and expertise. One can learn to cook or order door dash, learn to fix a car or hire a mechanic, learn to renovate a house or hire a builder. No option is right or wrong, just what fits your circumstances. Just shared what I have experienced.

 

[BrandoNy]

I used the glue masters thin and Marco powder. Very quick and strong bonds. There are some good videos on this method from a Korean YouTube Chanel “MarineCost “. You will need good disposable gloves, dollar store squeeze bottles for the powder and ventilation. The last part is important if you don’t want to wind up high as hell pondering a rock in your basement.

 

[BrandoNy]

I used the glue masters thin and Marco powder. Very quick and strong bonds. There are some good videos on this method from a Korean YouTube Chanel “MarineCost “. You will need good disposable gloves, dollar store squeeze bottles for the powder and ventilation. The last part is important if you don’t want to wind up high as hell pondering a rock in your basement.

 

[salty joe]

After a few months your rock work will get covered with bacteria and coralline which is going to hide all that hard work you put into it.

.

yes.

 

[FishTruck]

DP

 

[FishTruck]

I used quite a bit of pond foam with acrylic rods - much cheaper. Some e marco also. My nice paint job completely disappeared over time and was probably a waste.

 

[akillys]

I know I'm a little late but,I have built war gaming models for years using just gel super glue. I plan on doing something Similar to you for my 40 gallon breeder. I get that my tank is much smaller but I plan to break up smaller rocks using a mortar and pedestal to make different Size grains of sand then using the cheapest Thin superglue I can. Here's the thing most people don't realize. Evoke yes instaset works to create a bond quickly, other things that are much cheaper and can serve the same purpose. For example water or baking soda set it rather quickly. So you may be able to eliminate the instaset by having a spray bottle with water Or water mixed with baking soda. However, I'm Still rather new to the hobby so I'm not sure how baking soda would effect tank levels. But I can tell you from years of working with super glue. Plain old water works well enough. And in many cases instaset or water isn't even needed.

 

[salty joe]

I used polypropylene string to tie things together along with a Portland cement-sand mortar mix I made. I used a PVC frame to mimic a boulder. It's cool too because a startled fish can disappear into the rock at top speed and sometimes leisurely cruise out, lots of hiding places for big fish and a natural look. Dirt cheap, effective and fun.

In terms of pollutants, the only issue I've had is lithium. It was sky high, don't remember the number but a partial water change helped. It's still high but ATI no longer has it flagged with their five alarm red arrow. It's been slowly dropping and that's with no further water changes. I suspect algae removes it, albeit slowly. Or maybe carbon, IDK.

 

[bryan3536]

Probably worth noting that negative aquascape has its own drawbacks outside of the product cost to create it (which can be addressed as already noted herein).

Might be worth researching the side effects of the surface area loss both short and long term.

Fair. And I’m not going for a negative space Aquascape strictly speaking, more like “large custom structure with cool outcroppings and lots of spots for coral and caves and arches and holes for fish to swim through and hide in that isn’t stacked rock” but “NSA” seems like an easier shorthand for the method of making it.

 

[OfficeReefer]

I'm in the process of re-doing the aquascape in about 2/3 of my 180 gallon (standard) tank. Basically 4'x2'x2' or the equivalent of a 120 gallon . . . which BRS happened to do a great NSA video on! It looks relatively straightforward, but the cost for the method/materials used by BRS is pretty steep. Per the video (and I appreciate them sharing this info), they used 1 large bottle of extra thick glue ($34 currently), 1 large bottle of regular bonding glue ($40), 5 bottles of insta-set ($6 each), and 22(!) sticks of gray epoxy ($14 each) for their 120 build.

I just put that in my BRS cart - $450! For glue and epoxy - I have the rock, am making my own flat rocks, etc.

Got me looking at mortar and other options. Can you do a similar build method using something like the e-Marco 400 mortar? Super glue together, use insta-set to set it quickly where you want it, then use mortar to fill in gaps like you would with the epoxy? Or must the mortar be sort of the main contact point from the start, where you glob it into the contact points before putting the rocks together? (Hope that makes sense.) Can you mark up the mortar with a small piece of marco rock for texture like you can epoxy? And cover the mortar with marco dust (using liquid super glue)? And how far does the mortar bucket go?

I understand that we're talking about a slower process, but if its a trade off between time + a $55 bucket of mortar vs. $300+ in epoxy, I'll slow my roll a bit lol.

There is a way to save some and get better results. See the tidal gardens video.

 

[areefer01]

Fair. And I’m not going for a negative space Aquascape strictly speaking, more like “large custom structure with cool outcroppings and lots of spots for coral and caves and arches and holes for fish to swim through and hide in that isn’t stacked rock” but “NSA” seems like an easier shorthand for the method of making it.

True. Whatever the path tanks I'm sure it will look great. That is what is important in the end. Have a great weekend!

 

[bryan3536]

It took me FOREVER to make the first "gluing," but I was able to get the bones of what I am going for done late last night. A lot of trial and error. I wish I had the Glue Masters thin - that stuff looks legit - but I had already purchased a large amount of thick CA glue from Amazon which I can't return (Starbond EM-2000), so that's what I am working with. It works well enough I guess, but you really need thin to saturate the powder so I used up my stash of dollar store single use tubes for that (and am going to get some more). I used baking soda and water for the accelerant - I did 1 ts for 1 cup, which I think worked but I am going to remix a more concentrated batch and try that out. I also grabbed 4x 2oz plumbers epoxy for tougher/weight bearing pieces. It all seems to have cured very solidly overnight.

I'll add to it during the course of the week - I work from home, and moved my desk in front of the tank so I can spend most of the day pondering and considering the "next rock" so it should be good to go by next weekend.

Since I started this thread talking about cost, I'm keeping track of what I actually use and I'll put that up here (with a few photos of what I did). It will definitely come in cheaper than what the BRS guys used in their video.

 

[MECOMI]

My inspiration for my aquascape was the first NSA scape Ryan did with E-Marco Mortar x 2 ($76 total), BRS accelerator x 4 ($21 total), BRS extra thick-gel glue x 2 ($60 total, some left over) for a 4x2x2 display tank. I have a lazy factor involved and only limited DIY understanding so i just went with what they suggested for peace of mind. Paid a little more but thats part of the service.

I did not mortar till i had exactly what i was looking for in the scape using the super glue and accelerator. The extra step of dry rock dusting/sand filler along the mortar i did not do.

IMO The extra step seemed like a waste of time as once the rock was in the scape and the lights are on the seams are barely noticeable. and after the coral/coralline/algae/life takes hold it will never be back again.

This was one of my favorite projects during the build besides the water making station, so no matter what direction you take, it is very rewarding!

Good luck and have fun,

B-Kind