Build cost of a Negative Space Aquascape - wow!

[bryan3536]

I'm in the process of re-doing the aquascape in about 2/3 of my 180 gallon (standard) tank. Basically 4'x2'x2' or the equivalent of a 120 gallon . . . which BRS happened to do a great NSA video on! It looks relatively straightforward, but the cost for the method/materials used by BRS is pretty steep. Per the video (and I appreciate them sharing this info), they used 1 large bottle of extra thick glue ($34 currently), 1 large bottle of regular bonding glue ($40), 5 bottles of insta-set ($6 each), and 22(!) sticks of gray epoxy ($14 each) for their 120 build.

I just put that in my BRS cart - $450! For glue and epoxy - I have the rock, am making my own flat rocks, etc.

Got me looking at mortar and other options. Can you do a similar build method using something like the e-Marco 400 mortar? Super glue together, use insta-set to set it quickly where you want it, then use mortar to fill in gaps like you would with the epoxy? Or must the mortar be sort of the main contact point from the start, where you glob it into the contact points before putting the rocks together? (Hope that makes sense.) Can you mark up the mortar with a small piece of marco rock for texture like you can epoxy? And cover the mortar with marco dust (using liquid super glue)? And how far does the mortar bucket go?

I understand that we're talking about a slower process, but if its a trade off between time + a $55 bucket of mortar vs. $300+ in epoxy, I'll slow my roll a bit lol.

 

[JC1977]

I had a guy do the rockwork on my 180 and he used emarco. I’m pretty happy with it. I have several large overhangs he made using some solo cups and just the emarco. Not sure how much $$ you’re going to save however lol.

 

[DOJOLOACH]

Op I'm in your boat. Obviously don't buy the material from brs. Glues and all that are cheaper on Amazon. Lots of local guys selling dry rock too.

 

[Eric R.]

I think that Champion Lighting is going to be releasing SeaTak soon. Supposed to be released early February. Could be exactly the thing you're looking for, I've heard good things from the folks testing it so far.

SeaTak

SeaTak Underwater Coral Adhesive

www.championlighting.com

 

[miran2782]

you can skip the insta set accelerator and use rodi water in spray bottle with a little baking soda in it. checkout gluemasters website for glues too.

 

[Sean Clark]

CA glue is CA glue, insta-set is just acetone, you don't have to pay the hobby rate for every product you purchase.

 

[bryan3536]

Op I'm in your boat. Obviously don't buy the material from brs. Glues and all that are cheaper on Amazon. Lots of local guys selling dry rock too.

The rock I have. And I hear you - BRS often isn’t the cheapest option - I’ll double check prices - but if the price is close enough and I’m not in a rush, I actually try to support BRS when I can. My post probably sounds like a critique of them, but that wasn’t my intention. I know they get a lot of flak on here - at least it seems like there is always a snarky comment about them trying to sell something - but their videos helped and entertained me for years, and got me into this hobby, and they keep the conversation going on interesting topics. And I hope that continues.

 

[Amphibious Wallet]

The rock I have. And I hear you - BRS often isn’t the cheapest option - I’ll double check prices - but if the price is close enough and I’m not in a rush, I actually try to support BRS when I can. My post probably sounds like a critique of them, but that wasn’t my intention. I know they get a lot of flak on here - at least it seems like there is always a snarky comment about them trying to sell something - but their videos helped and entertained me for years, and got me into this hobby, and they keep the conversation going on interesting topics. And I hope that continues.

I'm with you on that, just about watched all their videos in the last 2-3 years on a binge and felt they were alright and honest about majority of things. Got confusing at times when I'd go from a 2mo/old video to a 2yr/old and get definitive information that contradicts. On one hand, they're updating the information as it comes, but on the other, grain of salt at the ready in future

IMO, it's a good thing that some people don't like BRS, keeps everyone honest and the arguments that usually end up dealing with dubious facts and anecdotal evidence sometimes end up with dubious facts and objective facts - win win for those with a cup that's never full!

 

[Miami Reef]

Glue masters liquid glue and fine sand.

No accelerator. No insta set. No mortar.

Find Tidal Garden‘s video on YouTube My aquascape was made with that method and I’d never go to another method.

 

[bryan3536]

I think that Champion Lighting is going to be releasing SeaTak soon. Supposed to be released early February. Could be exactly the thing you're looking for, I've heard good things from the folks testing it so far.

SeaTak

SeaTak Underwater Coral Adhesive

www.championlighting.com

This does look really promising for adhering frags to the reef and making plugs. Checked out a few videos, maybe I missed it but have they said it will be less expensive than the two part epoxies?

They do say the cure is activated by moisture, and that it takes 24 hours to harden, so wondering how useful it would be for initial dry aquascaping that might take place over a day or more out of the tank. That said, it's consistency and characteristics definitely make it look like a superior option to ca glue for making plugs and adhering frags to a reef. I feel like I can never get a plug on the reef without the ca going all over the place, the frag, as it skins over, you try to "pop" the skin on the rock, etc.

 

[reddogf5]

We built some rocks up from smashed bits, my thoughts:
* View the super glue as temporary to get the structure you want
* I used commercial accelerator, now I would just use baking soda. It accelerates the CA, and adds strength as a filler.
* Make mortar from cement and the same sand you use in the tank, and use this to permanently bond the bits together.

 

[bryan3536]

* Make mortar from cement and the same sand you use in the tank, and use this to permanently bond the bits together.

When you say cement, is this a generic product or something specific?

 

[reddogf5]

When you say cement, is this a generic product or something specific?

Cement from Home Depot. My tanks may be weird, but CA is never permanent, whether rocks or corals it seems the biofilm gets in the joint and pops them apart. The mortar has held so far.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Cement from Home Depot. My tanks may be weird, but CA is never permanent, whether rocks or corals it seems the biofilm gets in the joint and pops them apart. The mortar has held so far.

You have to be cautious when recommending mortars from lowes/HD. Heavy metals are not excluded from these mixes and you run into all kinds of issues down the road.

People have recommended the quikrete hydraulic cement in the past as a cost saving alternative to emarco 400. However I learned the hard way the quikrete brand only keeps a bond for maybe a year in saltwater environments.

Can you do a similar build method using something like the e-Marco 400 mortar?

I'm not 100% sure of your goal. If you're wanting to build the rock structure outside the tank, emarco is your best bet over superglue and epoxy. Not sure the cost savings. I used 2 buckets on my 300g and needed a little more hence the last minute hasty decision to trust a post in the forums. 4 years later the emarco is still holding and as I said, the quikrete let go and made a bommie structure lean almost into the glass before I caught it.

If you're doing the work underwater the 2 part epoxies and superglue is your better choice.

 

[bradreef]

We built some rocks up from smashed bits, my thoughts:

* View the super glue as temporary to get the structure you want

* I used commercial accelerator, now I would just use baking soda. It accelerates the CA, and adds strength as a filler.


* Make mortar from cement and the same sand you use in the tank, and use this to permanently bond the bits together.

this, 100% baking soda and super glue creates a really hard bonding material that is almost instant. Just take time and ensure that you reinforce each joint and then coat with sand or rock powder.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I actually try to support BRS when I can.

That's perfectly fine, just keep in mind that your loyalty comes at a huge price.

 

[Gtinnel]

When I put my aquascape together I used the cheapest thin superglue I could find locally and baking soda (or even better rock dust) and that was all I needed. It forms a really strong bond and is cheap to do. I did the aquascape in my 100g tank and it cost me about $40 not including the rock.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

CA glue is CA glue, insta-set is just acetone, you don't have to pay the hobby rate for every product you purchase.

I KNEW I recognized the smell of quick set activator but had never placed it as acetone. Thanks.

 

[F i s h y]

Glue masters liquid glue and fine sand.

No accelerator. No insta set. No mortar.

Find Tidal Garden‘s video on YouTube My aquascape was made with that method and I’d never go to another method.

This is the way to do it for sure.

 

[reddogf5]

You have to be cautious when recommending mortars from lowes/HD. Heavy metals are not excluded from these mixes and you run into all kinds of issues down the road.

People have recommended the quikrete hydraulic cement in the past as a cost saving alternative to emarco 400. However I learned the hard way the quikrete brand only keeps a bond for maybe a year in saltwater environments.

For clarity because people often mix these terms -
Cement is portland cement.
Mortar is cement and small aggregate, usually sand.
Concrete is cement, small aggregate (sand) and large aggregate (usually stones).
I will go out on a very sturdy limb and say Marco gets cement from the same sources as everyone else, there is no "aquarium grade" cement factory.
I wouldn't use a MORTAR mix from a home improvement store, I agree totally with you there.
I'm sure the Marco product is great, they include an acrylic modifier. One could find a comparable product that doesn't have any reef incompatible ingredients with some research, or just pay the price and get it from Marco.

The rock work we built with super glue and mortar made from HD cement and Caribsea Fiji pink is still going strong 4 years in.

I think cleaning all the dust and powder off the rock before building is important, having that contamination between pieces weakens the joint no matter what you use.