Blotchy Anthias viral nodules? Losing?

[Jay Hemdal]

just to clarify, if I pierced the peritoneum, how would that have degassed the fish?

I was thinking along the lines of what @MnFish1 said - perhaps the gas build up was in the GI tract, and you hit that? Maybe this species has a swim bladder in a lower location, IDK.

 

[MnFish1]

Ok, but I’m confused because wouldn’t this have killed the fish relatively fast? Today is day 12 after I did it.
It’s entirely possible I did it wrong, it made me super nervous but I did look up lots of videos, diagrams, etc. before doing it. @Jay Hemdal

Not necessarily. Though I would have thought it would be sooner than 12 days if you pierced the GI tract. However, fish infections may proceed a bit slower than lets say human - since the temperature is a bit lower. IMHO, it somewhat mitigates towards an infection (whether the swim Bladder or peritoneal since it improved, then worsened after the needle.

 

[MnFish1]

I will say that the red spot you show - in the absence of a clear (known) injury at that spot - and especially if those were found elsewhere on the fish, suggested (as you thought) a bacterial/sepsis picture. Can you send (please) another clear picture with an arrow - pointing at the nodules that are still there today? (unless they are obvious to see?)

 

[Reefer Dan]

I will say that the red spot you show - in the absence of a clear (known) injury at that spot - and especially if those were found elsewhere on the fish, suggested (as you thought) a bacterial/sepsis picture. Can you send (please) another clear picture with an arrow - pointing at the nodules that are still there today? (unless they are obvious to see?)

It moved this morning, so a little better photo ops today.

 

[Reefer Dan]

Not necessarily. Though I would have thought it would be sooner than 12 days if you pierced the GI tract. However, fish infections may proceed a bit slower than lets say human - since the temperature is a bit lower. IMHO, it somewhat mitigates towards an infection (whether the swim Bladder or peritoneal since it improved, then worsened after the needle.

That’s what I was starting to think and considering starting up kana/metro again? The white nodules were there before the swim bladder puncture, so they’ve been there for some time.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

That’s what I was starting to think and considering starting up kana/metro again? The white nodules were there before the swim bladder puncture, so they’ve been there for some time.

I'm having difficulty visualizing the nodules. They seem to be fairly large (ruling out ich) and raised to some degree. There are too many of them to be easily attributable to broken fin rays and random bumps. There are not a lot of known options. They could just be mucus plugs. They could be the site of bacterial infection, or they could be xenomas from microsporidians (unlikely).

 

[MnFish1]

I'm having difficulty visualizing the nodules. They seem to be fairly large (ruling out ich) and raised to some degree. There are too many of them to be easily attributable to broken fin rays and random bumps. There are not a lot of known options. They could just be mucus plugs. They could be the site of bacterial infection, or they could be xenomas from microsporidians (unlikely).

have you ever seen mycobacterial lesions look like this

 

[Dierks]

It seems to be that a lot of folks are in agreement @Reefer Dan

 

[Reefer Dan]

I'm having difficulty visualizing the nodules. They seem to be fairly large (ruling out ich) and raised to some degree. There are too many of them to be easily attributable to broken fin rays and random bumps. There are not a lot of known options. They could just be mucus plugs. They could be the site of bacterial infection, or they could be xenomas from microsporidians (unlikely).

Yeah, this fish’s coloring makes it extra challenging to get pictures and see stuff. I will try to get a clearer picture of the nodules. They are kind of clearish-white.
This QT is close to a litter box so I thought maybe Toxoplasma gondii, but that is unlikely due to not seeing anything on the scope and requiring 80F to infect (tank is at 76F)

So my question is, do I dose antibiotics or do I add it to the display tank (since it sounds non infectious??) and hope it recovers not being isolated in a small QT?

Edit: here is a better picture.

 

[Reefer Dan]

It seems to be that a lot of folks are in agreement @Reefer Dan

I was hoping that would be the case.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yeah, this fish’s coloring makes it extra challenging to get pictures and see stuff. I will try to get a clearer picture of the nodules. They are kind of clearish-white.
This QT is close to a litter box so I thought maybe Toxoplasma gondii, but that is unlikely due to not seeing anything on the scope and requiring 80F to infect (tank is at 76F)

So my question is, do I dose antibiotics or do I add it to the display tank (since it sounds non infectious??) and hope it recovers not being isolated in a small QT?

Edit: here is a better picture.

I don’t see an upside to moving it to the DT, unless you think it isn’t stable in the QT, and if this fish is more valuable to you than the other fish in the DT.

I advise folks to wait at least 14 days after symptoms of unknown origin have abated before moving fish into a DT. I usually wait 45 days myself, but I’m pretty conservative in protecting my display fish.

You could try different antibiotics such as neomycin but monitor the ammonia in case it nukes the biofilter.

The heavy breathing and not eating implies either an acute systemic infection or really wonky water quality.

I’ve never heard of fish developing acute infections from toxo, but maybe?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

have you ever seen mycobacterial lesions look like this

No - but myco is a great mimic, so I wouldn’t rule it out. However, this seems more of an acute infection, and myco is typically chronic, developing over weeks/months.

 

[Reefer Dan]

I don’t see an upside to moving it to the DT, unless you think it isn’t stable in the QT, and if this fish is more valuable to you than the other fish in the DT.

I advise folks to wait at least 14 days after symptoms of unknown origin have abated before moving fish into a DT. I usually wait 45 days myself, but I’m pretty conservative in protecting my display fish.

You could try different antibiotics such as neomycin but monitor the ammonia in case it nukes the biofilter.

The heavy breathing and not eating implies either an acute systemic infection or really wonky water quality.

I’ve never heard of fish developing acute infections from toxo, but maybe?

Ok I am glad I am not alone here. I was extremely nervous about putting it in the dt like this; however that is what several had told me to do. I have both metro and kana, so I will dose both.

The tufts have been somewhat chronic ~1 month, but they’ve gotten worse. Every time I test the water, it comes back perfect. 0 ammonia, nitrate 10ish, etc.

I will say given me some reassurance knowing that I haven’t been too far off on everything thus far. Thanks everyone for your help, we will see what happens.

Whew round 3 of antibiotics since I’ve had this fish makes me nervous.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ok I am glad I am not alone here. I was extremely nervous about putting it in the dt like this; however that is what several had told me to do. I have both metro and kana, so I will dose both.

The tufts have been somewhat chronic ~1 month, but they’ve gotten worse. Every time I test the water, it comes back perfect. 0 ammonia, nitrate 10ish, etc.

I will say given me some reassurance knowing that I haven’t been too far off on everything thus far. Thanks everyone for your help, we will see what happens.

Whew round 3 of antibiotics since I’ve had this fish makes me nervous.

But you tried kanaplex and metro already, right? Generally, if you do a full course of antibiotics with no improvement, you should try a different treatment.

If the fish just had mucus plugs, it probably isn’t risky to move, but the not eating and breathing heavy is a serious sign of acute infection, I wouldn’t risk it.

 

[Reefer Dan]

But you tried kanaplex and metro already, right? Generally, if you do a full course of antibiotics with no improvement, you should try a different treatment.

If the fish just had mucus plugs, it probably isn’t risky to move, but the not eating and breathing heavy is a serious sign of acute infection, I wouldn’t risk it.

Yeah I did metro+kana when there was the weird bruising (internal bacterial infection) for 12 days. I did metro +kana for 2 doses after the swim bladder “lancing” as a “preventative measure” so it wasn’t a full 3 dose round. I thought neomycin was a weaker antibiotic than kanaplex?

I did already dose it today, but I’m open to trying a different antibiotics. Sounds like neomycin is the one to try?

 

[MnFish1]

Yeah I did metro+kana when there was the weird bruising (internal bacterial infection) for 12 days. I did metro +kana for 2 doses after the swim bladder “lancing” as a “preventative measure” so it wasn’t a full 3 dose round. I thought neomycin was a weaker antibiotic than kanaplex?

I did already dose it today, but I’m open to trying a different antibiotics. Sounds like neomycin is the one to try?

kanamycin and neomycin are quite similar. However, as Jay said - since you tried kanamycin before if you could do neoplex now that may be beneficial. I would not repeat metronidazole.

 

[MnFish1]

I don’t see an upside to moving it to the DT, unless you think it isn’t stable in the QT, and if this fish is more valuable to you than the other fish in the DT.

I advise folks to wait at least 14 days after symptoms of unknown origin have abated before moving fish into a DT. I usually wait 45 days myself, but I’m pretty conservative in protecting my display fish.

You could try different antibiotics such as neomycin but monitor the ammonia in case it nukes the biofilter.

The heavy breathing and not eating implies either an acute systemic infection or really wonky water quality.

I’ve never heard of fish developing acute infections from toxo, but maybe?

Fish will not develop toxoplasmosis, as It requires a warm blooded (37 or so) animal to infect it. Just FYI

 

[Reefer Dan]

Fish will not develop toxoplasmosis, as It requires a warm blooded (37 or so) animal to infect it. Just FYI

I ruled it out based on finding this out, but i do appreciate you confirming it.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yeah I did metro+kana when there was the weird bruising (internal bacterial infection) for 12 days. I did metro +kana for 2 doses after the swim bladder “lancing” as a “preventative measure” so it wasn’t a full 3 dose round. I thought neomycin was a weaker antibiotic than kanaplex?

I did already dose it today, but I’m open to trying a different antibiotics. Sounds like neomycin is the one to try?

Neomycin is better tolerated than kanamycin, some species of fish have reactions to it. Because there is such a wide variety of marine species, it is a bit of a crap shoot to know if fish will tolerate it or not.
I often suggest neomycin just because it is fairly safe to use as a bath.
Enrofloxicin/Baytril is another option, but more difficult to source.
I’ve you’ve started the kanamycin, maybe just continue for a full course?

 

[Reefer Dan]

Neomycin is better tolerated than kanamycin, some species of fish have reactions to it. Because there is such a wide variety of marine species, it is a bit of a crap shoot to know if fish will tolerate it or not.
I often suggest neomycin just because it is fairly safe to use as a bath.
Enrofloxicin/Baytril is another option, but more difficult to source.
I’ve you’ve started the kanamycin, maybe just continue for a full course?

Very helpful information to know. Alright I will continue the full course of kana/metro and order some neomycin to add to my arsenal.

The fish is on day 4-5 without swimming or eating, so not sure how much longer it will last.