Banggai Cardinalfish of 2 years having trouble swimming

ReefNewbie12 · May 22, 2023

Video
So, pretty much, my Banggai cardinalfish (f) has rather suddenly presented with some alarming symptoms. I did look about and it seems like this usually presents itself in very new cardinalfish, so I’m not exactly worried that this is the iridovirus or a poor acclimation. The tank’s parameters are rather normal, a test strip did show that nitrates and nitrites were a little high but no other fish (specifically the tank is stocked with 1 Talbot’s damselfish, 2 banggai cardinalfish, and 1 clownfish), including the other cardinalfish in the tank, is showing anything remotely similar to her symptoms. No new fish have been added since last year (the latest addition was a Talbot’s damselfish), I’m worried it might be some new aggression but she doesn’t seem timid, I don’t know if it’s a good sign or not but she is still trying to swim and did evade attempts at netting her with the usual agility and speed, albeit was not interested in food beyond approaching the other fish when they were being fed. The Talbot did seem to nip at her a bit earlier, but only because she’d gotten close to the hole in the rockwork he’s claimed, and I haven’t seen unusual aggression from either her mate or the clownfish

I am aware that the algae issue is most certainly not minor, but the cyanobacteria has been being fought against for a long time so I don’t think it’s related (at least not acutely) to this, I’ve tried dosing with chemiclean and scraping down the tank numerous times, but it has come back with a vengeance every time.

Stephen8169301 · May 22, 2023

How long have the two banggai cards been together

ReefNewbie12 · May 22, 2023

Stephen8169301 said:
How long have the two banggai cards been together

The female was the first introduced and even then it had only been a couple of weeks or so before the male was added, they did initially have a couple spats but they have fairly consistently bred (and the male consistently had sunny-side up every time) so I would say they’re fairly stable. Overall I would say they’ve pretty much been together for the full two years.
Regarding what he’s doing now, he’s currently in the corner of the tank they usually hang out in, not showing any trouble staying in place or swimming, I don’t think he’s been antagonizing the female either, he’s just kind of ignoring her.

Stephen8169301 · May 22, 2023

@vetteguy53081

ReefNewbie12 · May 22, 2023

ReefNewbie12 said:
The female was the first introduced and even then it had only been a couple of weeks or so before the male was added, they did initially have a couple spats but they have fairly consistently bred (and the male consistently had sunny-side up every time) so I would say they’re fairly stable. Overall I would say they’ve pretty much been together for the full two years.
Regarding what he’s doing now, he’s currently in the corner of the tank they usually hang out in, not showing any trouble staying in place or swimming, I don’t think he’s been antagonizing the female either, he’s just kind of ignoring her.

Update: I did just see him make a quick move at the female while I was watching, I’m still a bit reluctant to say that he’s the sole cause of this though, even when they’d fought before it never went much worse than torn up fins, plus, she’s pretty intact to have been getting beaten up.

I am kind of scared she could just be getting old…they definitely weren’t as small as any of the Banggais I’ve seen at LFSs lately, I do know their lifespans aren’t the most extensive but I suppose I just wouldn’t expect it to be this rapid. Plus, if it is being old, she’s got an awful lot of energy left, she is still fighting to right herself and is managing to maintain a general position in the tank, I just don’t know if it’s because she has a shot at recovery or if she’s just feisty about it…it’s really unlike any of the other similar situations posted on here where the poor things went right to laying on the bottom and all.

vetteguy53081 · May 22, 2023

ReefNewbie12 said:
Video
So, pretty much, my Banggai cardinalfish (f) has rather suddenly presented with some alarming symptoms. I did look about and it seems like this usually presents itself in very new cardinalfish, so I’m not exactly worried that this is the iridovirus or a poor acclimation. The tank’s parameters are rather normal, a test strip did show that nitrates and nitrites were a little high but no other fish (specifically the tank is stocked with 1 Talbot’s damselfish, 2 banggai cardinalfish, and 1 clownfish), including the other cardinalfish in the tank, is showing anything remotely similar to her symptoms. No new fish have been added since last year (the latest addition was a Talbot’s damselfish), I’m worried it might be some new aggression but she doesn’t seem timid, I don’t know if it’s a good sign or not but she is still trying to swim and did evade attempts at netting her with the usual agility and speed, albeit was not interested in food beyond approaching the other fish when they were being fed. The Talbot did seem to nip at her a bit earlier, but only because she’d gotten close to the hole in the rockwork he’s claimed, and I haven’t seen unusual aggression from either her mate or the clownfish

I am aware that the algae issue is most certainly not minor, but the cyanobacteria has been being fought against for a long time so I don’t think it’s related (at least not acutely) to this, I’ve tried dosing with chemiclean and scraping down the tank numerous times, but it has come back with a vengeance every time.

Chemiclean is an alternative and not a solution and if dosed heavy can cause problems with certain fish as its ethromyacin and likely had effect on the cardinal according to video
Unfortunately, this fish is moribund and will likely Not make it, sorry to say.
Regarding test strips, they are about the worst for accuracy and I personally will not depend on $7 strips to sustain an investment in marine specimens . Hanna and salifert kits are best and warranted in a hobby with collective species of marine life.
For cyano, find the source rather than having chemicals do the work - which Dont work.
Cyano blooms typically start when water nutrient concentrations of phosphate, nitrate and other organic compounds are too high.
Some of the most common causes include:
- Protein skimmer which fills water with tiny air bubbles. As bubbles form from the reaction chamber, dissolved organic compound molecules stick to them. Foam forms at the surface of the water and is then transferred to a collection cup, where it rests as skimmate. When the protein skimmer does not output the best efficiency or you do not have the suitable protein skimmer to cover the tank, the air bubbles created by the skimmer might be insufficient. And this insufficiency of air bubbles can trigger the cyano to thrive.
- Overstocking / overfeeding, your aquarium with nutrients is often the culprit of a cyano bloom
- Adding live rock that isn’t completely cured which acts like a breeding ground for red slime algae
- If you don’t change your water with enough frequency, you’ll soon have a brightly colored red slime algae bloom. Regular water changes dilute nutrients that feed cyanobacteria and keeps your tank clear
- Using a water source with nitrates or phosphates is like rolling out the welcome mat for cyano. Tap water is an example
- Inadequate water flow, or movement, is a leading cause of cyano blooms. Slow moving water combined with excess dissolved nutrients is a recipe for pervasive red slime algae development

I recommend in the future to reduce white light intensity or even turn them off for 3-5 days. Add liquid bacteria daily for a week during the day at 1.5ml per 10 gallons. Add Hydrogen peroxide at night at 1ml per 10 gallons. Add a pouch of chemipure Elite which will balance phos and nitrate and keep them in check.

After the 5 days, add a few snails such as cerith, margarita, astrea and nassarius plus 6-8 blue leg hermits to take control.

ReefNewbie12 · May 22, 2023

vetteguy53081 said:
Chemiclean is an alternative and not a solution and if dosed heavy can cause problems with certain fish as its ethromyacin and likely had effect on the cardinal according to video
Unfortunately, this fish is moribund and will likely Not make it, sorry to say.
Regarding test strips, they are about the worst for accuracy and I personally will not depend on $7 strips to sustain an investment in marine specimens . Hanna and salifert kits are best and warranted in a hobby with collective species of marine life.
For cyano, find the source rather than having chemicals do the work - which Dont work.
Cyano blooms typically start when water nutrient concentrations of phosphate, nitrate and other organic compounds are too high.
Some of the most common causes include:
- Protein skimmer which fills water with tiny air bubbles. As bubbles form from the reaction chamber, dissolved organic compound molecules stick to them. Foam forms at the surface of the water and is then transferred to a collection cup, where it rests as skimmate. When the protein skimmer does not output the best efficiency or you do not have the suitable protein skimmer to cover the tank, the air bubbles created by the skimmer might be insufficient. And this insufficiency of air bubbles can trigger the cyano to thrive.
- Overstocking / overfeeding, your aquarium with nutrients is often the culprit of a cyano bloom
- Adding live rock that isn’t completely cured which acts like a breeding ground for red slime algae
- If you don’t change your water with enough frequency, you’ll soon have a brightly colored red slime algae bloom. Regular water changes dilute nutrients that feed cyanobacteria and keeps your tank clear
- Using a water source with nitrates or phosphates is like rolling out the welcome mat for cyano. Tap water is an example
- Inadequate water flow, or movement, is a leading cause of cyano blooms. Slow moving water combined with excess dissolved nutrients is a recipe for pervasive red slime algae development

I recommend in the future to reduce white light intensity or even turn them off for 3-5 days. Add liquid bacteria daily for a week during the day at 1.5ml per 10 gallons. Add Hydrogen peroxide at night at 1ml per 10 gallons. Add a pouch of chemipure Elite which will balance phos and nitrate and keep them in check.

After the 5 days, add a few snails such as cerith, margarita, astrea and nassarius plus 6-8 blue leg hermits to take control.

Well, I will say that though I have tried chemiclean in the past against the cyano as stated, I haven’t used it recently…I think it honestly became resistant to the stuff.

Still, I suppose it doesn’t really change that she’s not in good condition, I will try to apply that advice for controlling the cyano, but frankly this is a thread about the fish and I’d at least like to know what might’ve really happened, at least for the other‘s sakes. Is there anything in particular I should do for her? She’s still fighting hard, but it does hurt to see that if she really doesn’t have a chance to make it out of this in spite of that.

vetteguy53081 · May 22, 2023

ReefNewbie12 said:
Well, I will say that though I have tried chemiclean in the past against the cyano as stated, I haven’t used it recently…I think it honestly became resistant to the stuff.

Still, I suppose it doesn’t really change that she’s not in good condition, I will try to apply that advice for controlling the cyano, but frankly this is a thread about the fish and I’d at least like to know what might’ve really happened, at least for the other‘s sakes. Is there anything in particular I should do for her? She’s still fighting hard, but it does hurt to see that if she really doesn’t have a chance to make it out of this in spite of that.

Like most fish, it will fight hard. Banggai rarely when in this condition rebound. There is no medication, I can recommend and adding oxygen with air stone may buy it time but recovery is minimized.
As for cause, can be chemi-clean ingredients which is an antibiotic which lowers oxygen and prevents growth of bacteria. Multiple doses will make matters worse, crashing into object from being harassed or startled or unknown issue without more info such as observed loss of appetite, heavy breathing and lethargic behavior as examples.
Also Dead cyano may at times release toxins into the water and some fish tolerate the toxin levels while others don't.

ReefNewbie12 · May 22, 2023

I managed to get her into a breeder box, I think she’s just too exhausted to bother now, she immediately just started laying on the bottom as soon as I got her in. I did notice it seemed like her tail was drooping downward when I’d managed to corner her, it looks kind of like she’s breathing laboredly, though not exactly hyperventilating.
I will once again note she did refuse food earlier today, I doubt offering her any now will help, I did turn up the airstones but I suppose that’s kind of putting a bandage over a broken leg at this point. Just to go over what I’ve seen so far:
- She definitely has lost her appetite, she did try to go for food earlier but didn’t ultimately eat any. The other fish still ate rather voraciously as per usual though.
- The other fish did peck at her a bit, but I don’t know if this is the cause of her moribund condition or because of it, they didn’t do anything extreme and while her pelvic and anal fins a little tattered it isn’t nearly as extreme as the last time I saw one of the Banggais get beat up.
- She definitely has a bloated abdomen, it looks lopsided, a little bigger on one side than the other.
- She lost basically all of her ability to orient herself, she was essentially floundering about in the water column with her eyes cocked to either side trying to get back upright, it was so bad she was even flipping upside down. She did still seem to be at least a little buoyant but did decide to rest completely when taken out of the flow.
-Her breathing looks a bit strained, she was pumping her gills a little faster than usual when she was out in the tank but now that she’s resting it does seem like she’s slowed down a bit. Maybe she was just exhausted from battling the flow and trying to right herself for so long…
- Her tail does look a little pinkish now that she’s closer to the light, and I did notice it curving downward slightly when she was swimming about, I don’t know if she was trying to balance herself or if it’s a legitimate issue but it does still appear to be functional.
- I don’t know if I’m seeing things that aren’t there with this one, but the base of one of her pectoral fins seems almost bruised? It’s significantly darker than the surrounding area and it isn’t present on the other side, like blood just pooled behind it or something? Once again, not 100% on this one.