ATO Using 1 Optical Sensor (in Conjunction with pH Control) and 2 Float Sensors as Backups -- Dr. Jim

[Dr. Jim]

Note: This thread was originally posted under Ditto's "Switching Controllers from Apex to GHL". At the suggestion of others, I have copied and pasted here. Sorry for the duplication and inconvenience....I'm new to GHL and the GHL forums....(but I've been in the hobby since it's infancy.... 50+ years).

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Feb 17, 2020

Before I go too far with attempting to set up and program my ATO System, I'm hoping if someone can tell me IF it is even possible to do what I'm hoping to do, and answer some basic questions:

With Float valves, when the float is UP, does that turn on or off a socket? I'm guessing that it depends if the INVERTED BOX is checked? (If so, does a checked box turn on or off the socket?)

Below is a picture of my proposed SENSOR setup showing 3 sensors: The main sensor will be the OPTICAL sensor in the middle. The 2 FLOAT sensors, one above and one below the OPTICAL sensor, will act as "backups." So, if the OPTICAL sensor fails in the "off" position, the LOWER FLOAT would turn on the pump(s); if the OPTICAL sensor fails in the "on" position, the UPPER FLOAT will turn off the pump(s). Is it possible to have all 3 sensors control the same pump, or would there be a conflict necessitating a separate pump for the OPTICAL and a separate pump for the 2 FLOAT sensors?

I'm also wondering if I can control different pumps depending on the pH. My plan would be:
-If pH is < 8.3 then a "KALKwasser PUMP" will be activated.
-if pH is > 8.3 then a "NON-KALK PUMP" will be activated.

I'm not asking for someone to "set this up" for me, I'm just wondering if it is possible. I'm thinking that it may not be, because I don't see a way to plug in pH values. I see on the SWITCHES/OUTLETS that you can choose "pH Value-1", then "Control downwards, or, upwards" ….. but I don't think that is going to help me do what I want....unless I'm hopefully missing something. So, if there is a way to plug in pH values somewhere, steering me in the right direction would be appreciated!

To complicate matters even more, I am hoping to have a 3d, "Backup Pump," that would be activated if the other 2 pumps fail. Actually, to simplify matters, I was thinking of just having this Backup Pump be activated at the same time as the KALK or NON-KALK pumps BUT with a set DELAY. That way, it would only come on after giving the other pumps a chance to replace the evaporated water. I think the maximum delay is only 60 seconds, so I'm not sure if that would be enough time, but it would be OK for this pump to run along with the other pump(s) for a while if necessary.

My 3d layer of redundancy will be a gravity fed float valve, positioned below the lowest FLOAT valve!

I know all of this will take a lot of layers of Programmable Logic, but it will be a good "brain exercise" for me! First step is to just learn if it is all possible....so I thank anybody who might comment and/or point me in the right direction.
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Ditto Replied:

Lets start with the Sensors.

You could use all 3. Advance Program Logic would be used. You could use the two sensors for ATO which would be your low and High. Or you could use Senor 1 as ATO, Senor 2 as ATO. And Then Sensor 3 as Leak Detector or High Sump. We would then apply all 3 in Advance program Logic, and then apply that to the switch outlet. A few options

For the PH yes it would be based on the PH Nominal Value and the Hysterias Value. Then you would do the PH Control Downward or Upward on the Switch Outlet.

So what you would do is Set your PH Value lets say 8.3 and then your Hysteresis of .20 for example. At 8.4 would activate the downwards, and at 8.2 would be the upwards. (I believe this is right, sometimes I get it reversed)

The Hysteresis value and the Nominal Value determine the amount of the swing and the activation point. Remember what ever Hysteresis value you set it is 1/2 that value before it activated

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Dr. Jim replied:

What happens if the pH is below 8.2, the lower set value? Would the socket still become activated if set on "upwards" ?

Ditto: I noticed that your 3 options for sensors didn't include what I was hoping to do. Are you saying I can't use my idea being:
the middle Optical Sensor would be the "main" control (i.e. turns off and on pump(s) as needed), with the upper and lower Float sensors as a backup (so they would turn off or on the same pump(s) that the Optical sensor controls IF the Optical sensor fails?

When the float rises, does it turn off or on a switch/socket?

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Ditto replied:

Ok, maybe I miss understood the request

Sensor 2 would be ato. So it would control the pump.

Do you want sensor 3 (upper sensor) to turn the pump on or off when it activates? For example it would be on till activated meaning water raised the sensor Is activated.

Do you want sensor 1 to turn the pump on or off with it activates. Meaning when the sensor activated meaning low water it activates until the sensor activated.

The issue is failure, If the optical sensor fails it going to fail closed meaning the sensor is going to think water is there and is not. That is done as safety and you also have a max on time also which helps which is the max time Setting which is the max time the outlet can be on before it fails and shut it down.

Yes 8.2 and below so if it was 8.1 it will still activate.

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Dr. Jim replied:

I'm sorry if I'm not explaining this well....

The middle sensor (OPTICAL) would be the main sensor. When the water level drops, it would turn on a pump; when the water rises and covers the sensor, it would shut the pump off. QUESTION: Does the sensor turn ON or OFF a socket when the water drops below the sensor? I'm trying to get a handle on the INVERTED BOX and when to check it.

The LOWER FLOAT is a backup that would turn on a pump if for some reason the OPTICAL SENSOR failed to turn on the pump. Again, does the sensor activate (turn on) a socket when the float is down or up? And, does checking the INVERTED BOX make it do the opposite?

The UPPER FLOAT is just a backup. If the OPTICAL sensor fails to shut off a pump, then this float would shut it off.

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Ditto replied:

QUESTION: Does the sensor turn ON or OFF a socket when the water drops below the sensor?
With any level sensor yes it will turn on or off if the water drops below the sensor.

It depends on the funciton you choose and the impact on the invert function.

Let me pull my sensor and my Powerbar out and see if I can do a quick video showing how invert works

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Lasse replied:

With the ATO function it turn the socket on when it's down. Yes - inverted means opposite.

Sincerely Lasse

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Feb 18, 2020
Dr Jim posted:

MY ATO:
Just in case anyone is interested in getting ideas for an ATO with layers of redundancy, and the use of pumps influenced by pH (for use of kalkwasser), I will present it here:

Here are the PUMPS and SENSORS used for ATO, with their “assigned names”:

PUMPS

-“KALK”: pumps water from RO/DI reservoir thru kalk reactor then to sump; (Sicce pump)
-Activated when pH < 8.3

-“NON-KALK”: pumps water from RO/DI reservoir directly to sump; (GHL MAXI DOSER)
-Activated when pH > 8.3 (Note: I may change pH settings; hysteresis may not allow activation at these exact values.)

-“BACK-UP”: pumps water from RO/DI reservoir directly to sump if either or both of above 2 pumps fail; (Sicce pump)



SENSORS (top to bottom); See picture in an earlier post.

-“HIGH FLOAT SENSOR”: (used to turn off all 3 pumps in case of failure)

-“OPTICAL SENSOR”: (Main sensor used to control KALK and Non-KALK pumps)

-“LOW FLOAT SENSOR”: (Turns on BACKUP PUMP in case of failure of OPTICAL sensor)

-there is a gravity-fed float valve below the LOW FLOAT SENSOR which is part of Red Sea 170 sump for a 3d layer of redundancy. Not relevant to discussion though.





SOCKETS and PROGRAMMABLE LOGIC (P.L.)
AND and OR refer to the FUNCTION in P.L.


#6 – KALK PUMP: P.L. 6 = HIGH FLOAT “ON” AND P.L. 2
(P.L. 2 = pH UP AND OPTICAL SENSOR “ON”)
“ON” refers to the DOWN position of the float.

#13 – NON-KALK PUMP. (Socket assigned to GHL MAXI Doser):
P.L. 7 = HIGH FLOAT “ON” AND P.L.3
(P.L. 3 = pH DOWN AND OPTICAL SENSOR “ON”)
“ON” refers to water level BELOW the Optical Sensor

#8 – BACKUP PUMP: P.L. 9 = P.L. 5 AND P.L. 8
P.L. 5 = LOW FLOAT “ON” AND HIGH FLOAT “ON”
P.L. 8 = OPTICAL SENSOR “ON” OR “OFF” (just in case the OPTICAL sensor fails)

So...that's it! Simple, huh?!
Thank you again for everyone that helped!

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Feb 20, 2020
Dr. Jim posted:

I see that I'm not getting much response to my previous posts so I won't drag this on.... but I'd like to mention that I did run into two problems with the OPTICAL sensor being coupled with "pH upwards (increase)" for my kalk pump; and, "pH downwards (decrease)" for the "non-kalk" pump. (The "BACKUP PUMP," working off the float sensors, works fine and the OPTICAL sensor works fine when I remove the "pH control" from the programming.)

1) First, am I correct in using the pH upwards (increase) for the pump I want to use for adding kalk or should I be using the pH downwards (decrease) for that pump? (I want to increase the pH using kalk). (I'm pretty sure I got it right, but wouldn't mind confirmation).

2) I found that to get them to work, I had to check the INVERTED BOX for the "pH upwards" and "pH downwards." I'm happy to have them working but I'm trying to understand what the checked INVERTED BOX is doing in this case, (and why it is needed). If anybody could explain this, I would find it very helpful and interesting.

3) After fussing with the programming again tonight, I'm finding that sometimes both pumps come on at the same time. I'm guessing it may be because my pH tonight is exactly 8.25 and that is what I have my pH probe set at, with a 0.05 hysteresis. I'm guessing that I may only get one pump at a time to run (either the Kalk or non-Kalk pump) only if the pH strays below 8.20 (8.25-0.05) or above 8.30 (8.20+0.05), respectively. Does that make sense?

Thanks for helping!

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Feb 21,2020
Lasse replied:

Dr. Jim said:
sometimes both pumps come on at the same time. I'm guessing it may be because my pH tonight is exactly 8.25 and that is what I have my pH probe set at, with a 0.05

To solve that problem - please read the manual according virtual probes. Virtual probs let you use different nominal values to the same physical probe. Very handsome in a case like this

It could be very good if you do like @robbyg say. Publish in an own thread.

Can you publish your PL for the kalk pump and for the "normal" pump?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[AZMSGT]

I love the ideas and concept. I would love to see the final logic once you get it all done. I might just be one to copy it and modify it to my use. I'm not the kind of person who enjoys the programing side of GHL.

The ATO and WC functions for the GHL system drive me crazy. I also would like a similar logic that is based off salinity. So if I set the salinity at 1.0250 the ATO adds from the Saltwater side or RO side depending on where the reading is. This would automatically adjust things based off of water removed for sampling.

I think GHL's programmers could take the system to the next level if they included these concepts in their thinking. and premade the logic.

 

[Dr. Jim]

First, a quick review from the GHL manual:

Nominal value = 7.0 and Hysteresis = 0.4
The down-regulation-socket switches on at 7.2 and off again at 7.0, the up-regulation-socket switches on at 6.8 and off again at 7.0.
It can be seen that the control oscillates by 7.1 or 6.9 and not exactly by the adjusted nominal value (7.0). This is necessary to allow simultaneous use of up- and down-regulation.
For example, a pH probe with a nominal value of 7.0 and Hysteresis of 0.4, will trigger the “decrease” function at 7.2 and deactivate the function when pH goes back to 7.0

I think the bold print above is my problem. When the tank pH is equal to the set Nominal pH, then the probes don't resond.

LASSE,
I read about Virtual Probes starting on pg. 75 of the Programming Guide but I couldn't find in the GHL Control system how to use them. I learned that they have to be set up on the Profilux screen. (I made a "copy" and "saved" it but then the screen went back to the original setting and I couldn't figure out where to go from there). But, I am not sure how this will solve my problem (or what the Virtual Probe actually does) because I read:

"The solution is to create a "copy" (= virtual probe) of the actually existing sensor. This virtual probe and its associated control loop can be used just like a "normal" sensor. The actual measured value of the virtual probe is, of course, always equal to the measured value of the "original sensor". In addition, a virtual sensor cannot be calibrated".

So, unless I'm missing something, (which I probably am), I don't see how this will help my problem if the "virtual probe is always equal to the original sensor": When the pH is equal to the Nominal Value that is set, (or with in the hysteresis range), neither pump ("KALK" or "NON-KALK") will turn on. (Now I know why they worked last night when I checked the INVERTED BOX....because my actual tank pH was exactly the same as the set Nominal pH setting! But checking the INVERTED BOX is not the solution. I now have the INVERTED BOX unchecked, as it should be, and each pump will work when I set he pH Nominal Value far above or below the actual measured value.)

So, I'm hoping that somebody can explain the Virtual Probe, and I'm hoping that it will solve the problem.

If the Virtual Probe won't solve the problem, and nobody can come up with another solution I might have to settle for this:
For the NON-KALK programming, add another L.P. with the OR function and make the new function "OPTICAL SENSOR ON" without pH control with a 60 second delay. So, if top off water is called for and the pH is in the range where the "pH control" prohibits a pump from coming on, then this new function associated with the OR function, not requiring pH control, will turn on the NON-KALK pump after 60 seconds, thereby giving the pH-dependent controls a chance to respond.
This idea is not as nice as getting the KALK and NON-KALK pumps to work strictly dependent on pH so I hope the Virtual Probe may be the answer..... if someone can please explain it to me!

Lasse asked for the PL for the KALK and NON-KALK pumps. (I did present them in an earlier thread but not using strict GHL terminology which I will do here.
GHL terminology will be in bold print and "Description" italicized. (Circuit numbers are omitted since they aren't relevant):


SOCKETS and PROGRAMMABLE LOGIC (P.L.)
AND and OR refer to the FUNCTION in P.L.


Socket #6 – KALK PUMP: P.L. 6 = Fill water (ATO only)/HIGH FLOAT “ON” AND P.L. 2.
P.L. 2 = pH value 1-Controls upwards (increase) AND Fill water (ATO only)/OPTICAL SENSOR “ON”)
“ON” refers to the DOWN position of the float.

Socket #13 – NON-KALK PUMP. (Socket assigned to GHL MAXI Doser):
P.L. 7 = Fill water (ATO only)/HIGH FLOAT “ON” AND P.L.3
P.L. 3 = pH value 1-Controls downward (decrease) AND Fill water (ATO only) / OPTICAL SENSOR “ON”)
“ON” refers to water level BELOW the Optical Sensor

I hope I presented this well...I know it was complicated!
Much THANKS for anybody's help!

 

[Dr. Jim]

I love the ideas and concept. I would love to see the final logic once you get it all done. I might just be one to copy it and modify it to my use. I'm not the kind of person who enjoys the programing side of GHL.

The ATO and WC functions for the GHL system drive me crazy. I also would like a similar logic that is based off salinity. So if I set the salinity at 1.0250 the ATO adds from the Saltwater side or RO side depending on where the reading is. This would automatically adjust things based off of water removed for sampling.

I think GHL's programmers could take the system to the next level if they included these concepts in their thinking. and premade the logic.

That's a great idea! I wondered about that too, but haven't given it much thought yet. If I figure out my pH-controlled ATO system, I may work on this next!

 

[AZMSGT]

That's a great idea!

Thanks, I have lots of great ideas, implimenting them. Not so much.

 

[Dr. Jim]

SOLVED THE PROBLEM !!

In this post, I will discuss:

A. The Original Problem
B. What this ATO System can do
C. Solution to the problem
D. Final Complete Programming Logic set-up
E. Suggestion for GHL Programmers (for a possible future update)

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A. The Original Problem
When linking pH control (pH Upwards or pH Downwards) to a sensor, the sensor would not respond when the actual tank pH is within the pH hysteresis range.

B. What this ATO System can do
1) When ATO water is called for (by Optical sensor linked to pH control), water will be added from a kalkwasser reactor (when pH is below a set point) or water without kalk (when the pH is above a set point). Note: the Optical sensor can only react when the pH is outside the hysteresis range. (Again, this was my original problem which is now solved; see "C" below).
When the pH is within the hysteresis range, "Non-Kalk water" will be pumped from the BACKUP PUMP. (To review basic set-up: Optical Sensor is main sensor; there is a HIGH FLOAT sensor above the Optical Sensor and a LOW FLOAT sensor below it.)
2) If the Optical Sensor fails "OFF" (in which case the water level would fall), then the BACKUP PUMP will come on, triggered by the LOW FLOAT sensor.
3) If the Optical Sensor fails "ON" (in which case the water level would rise), then ALL
pumps will shut off (or not be allowed to come on), triggered by the HIGH FLOAT sensor.

C. Solution to Problem
The solution was to link an "OR" function (in Programmable Logic) to the BACKUP PUMP socket with a "OPTICAL SENSOR DELAY ON." So now we are including a command for the Optical Sensor to turn on the BACKUP PUMP without pH influence. So every time the OPTICAL sensor is triggered (by low water) the BACKUP PUMP will be activated with a DELAY. The reason for the DELAY is to give the OPTICAL sensor (linked to the KALK and NON-KALK pumps) a chance to add whichever one is called for (when the pH is outside the hysteresis range) in order to not have the BACKUP Pump come on when the Optical sensor-linked to pH is activated. So the BACKUP PUMP will be activated only when the pH is outside the hysteresis range. My original thought was to set the DELAY to 60 sec (to give the KALK or NON-KALK pumps plenty of time to run so the BACKUP pump wouldn't need to come on). But for testing purposes I set the DELAY to just 10 sec (so I wouldn't have to wait a whole minute every time I tested) BUT I learned something interesting AND beneficial! When using the OR function, only one command, from one "side" or the other, of the OR will work, and that is whichever command is activated first. So, since I have a delay of only 5 sec on the "Optical Sensor linked to pH control", and a 10 sec DELAY on the "Optical Sensor NOT linked to pH control" then the "Optical Sensor linked to pH control" will of course come on first which NEGATES the second function ("Optical Sensor linked to pH control"). So, when the KALK or NON-KALK pumps are working, we don't have to worry about the BACKUP pump coming on too.

D. Final Complete Programming Logic set-up.
-Socket numbers aren't relevant (they are just the ones I used).
-RED print indicates new modification to "solve problem"
-GHL terminology will be in bold print and "Description" italicized. (Circuit numbers are omitted since they aren't relevant):
-PROGRAMMABLE LOGIC = (P.L.)
-AND and OR refer to the FUNCTION in P.L.

Socket #6 – KALK PUMP: P.L. 6 = Fill water (ATO only)/HIGH FLOAT “ON” AND P.L. 2.
P.L. 2 = pH value 1-Controls upwards (increase) AND Fill water (ATO only)/OPTICAL SENSOR “ON”)
“ON” refers to the DOWN position of the float.

Socket #13 – NON-KALK PUMP. (Socket assigned to GHL MAXI Doser):
P.L. 7 = Fill water (ATO only)/HIGH FLOAT “ON” AND P.L.3
P.L. 3 = pH value 1-Controls downward (decrease) AND Fill water (ATO only) / OPTICAL SENSOR “ON”)
“ON” refers to water level BELOW the Optical Sensor

#8 – BACKUP PUMP: P.L. 11 = P.L. 10 OR P.L. 9
P.L. 10 = DELAYED ON, Input: Fill water (ATO Only); 10 Sec DELAY-circuit for Optical Sensor / OPTICAL SENSOR "ON" with 10 sec delay
P.L. 9 = P.L. 5 AND P.L. 8
P.L. 5 = Fill water (ATO only)-circuit for Low Float / LOW FLOAT “ON” AND Fill water (ATO only) - circuit for High Float / HIGH FLOAT “ON”
P.L. 8 = Fill water (ATO only)-circuit for Opt. Sensor) / OPTICAL SENSOR “ON”
OR Fill water (ATO only) INVERTED-circuit for Opt. Sensor) / OPTICAL SENSOR “OFF”


NOTE: When setting the Nominal pH and hysteresis, you can think of the "trigger point" to be the lowest value of the hysteresis range. So, if you would like the KALK and NON-KALK pumps to be triggered by a pH of 8.28, then you can set the Nominal value to 8.33 with the hysteresis set at 0.1 which will give you a range of 8.28 to 8.38. It doesn't really matter what the higher value is. Only the lower value, 8.28, will play a role in my "system".


E. Suggestion for GHL Programmers (for a possible future update)

I fear most will say this is way too much work just to control Kalk additions, but my question is: How many Reefers would like to have Kalk additions linked with pH IF it was easy? If there are a lot of you, then maybe GHL Programmers will consider the following suggestion in a future update. (GHL: If there is not much response to this question, I'm guessing it would be because most readers dropped out by now, not because they don't like the idea of KALK control, but because it may appear to complicated). ;Happy

To make the "KALK control - Influenced by pH" set-up a lot easier, it would be helpful to have an option to set the hysteresis to "zero" (thereby eliminating it). But, there would also need to be a choice (perhaps a drop-down box) for when the actual pH is equal to the Nominal pH. One of the following choices would be made:
a) pH Control Upwards is active when Actual pH is equal to Nominal pH, or
b) pH Control Downwards is active when Actual pH is equal to Nominal pH

 

[AZMSGT]

I like the idea of Kalk control to PH. Advanced reefers I think would like this ability.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I just figured out how to use "Virtual Probes". Had I figured this out earlier, I would have probably used them to set up my ATO system. But the programming I outlined works and I will just stick with that one for now. Actually, the use of Virtual Probes would have eliminated only two Programmable Logic steps (which would be the omission of G11 and G10 under "socket 8" in my example.)

In case anyone is interested in Virtual Probes: you create them on the Profilux screen (not GHL Control Center). So, for example, you copy the pH sensor (as many times as you want) and each copy will appear on GHL Control Center as: pH value-2, pH value-3, etc. Remember, you already had pH value-1 to start with. So for each new copy, you can reset the Nominal value, hysteresis, Nocturnal change, Alarm, etc. for each copy.
So in my ATO system, I could have used different pH Nominal values for the KALK and NON-KALK pumps, and eliminated the G11 function that I added to the BACKUP PUMP (which is what was needed to turn on a pump when the tank pH is within the hysteresis range).
Probably the amount of "work" is about the same, but using the Virtual Probes would have been a "cleaner" way to set it up. Again, either way will work. Now I'm starting to feel a little guilty about not following this through to the end using the most appropriate programming, so I will work on the "better" programming using Virtual Probes and post it soon.

 

[Dr. Jim]

VIRTUAL PROBES

In case anyone is interested in learning a little more about Virtual Probes, I found a situation where I needed to create a NEW Virtual Probe for Temperature Control.
I found that my Propeller Breeze (fans) were coming on too early.
My Nominal Temperatue-1 is set to 77.5 so I don't want the fans to come on unless the water temperature exceeds 77.5, but they are coming on at their slowest speed when the water temperature is 77.1. (The fans are controlled by 0-10V so the fan speed increases as the water temperature becomes higher). So, by creating a Virtual Probe, designated as "Temperature-2", I can set a new Nominal Value … (I chose 78.1 but may play with the setting) and assigned/dedicated "Temperature-2" to the fans.


How to Create a Virtual Probe: (Example will be for programming my situation explained in previous paragraph)

On the Profilux screen (not GHL Control Center), you go to:
-SYSTEM
-Virtual Probes
-New Virtual Probe
-Copy. (Other choice is "Average" if you have more than 1 probes in tank)
-Then, choose the Sensor you want: Temperature-1 in my case, but you can choose other sensors (e.g. pH Value-1) for other situations.
-SAVE

Then, in GHL Control Center:
-SYSTEM
-1-10V Interface
-Choose the Interface the Propeller Breeze is linked (L1, L2, L3 etc.)
-Double click to Edit: Choose Temperature-2 in dropdown box.
-Done!

Hope this may be helpful !