Assistance need with yellow tang hlle/fin rot/infection?

[A_Blind_Reefer]

First, I have very little vision. A yellow tang is just a bright yellow blob/blur to me. A guest (non-reefer) had noticed his tail looked like it had been chewed on and face was turning white about a month ago. So, I ordered up green and purple sea veggies and selcon (normal food is pe pellets and hikari seaweed extreme pellets three times a day). I had tried nori in the past but neither the yellow or Tomini would go for it. A couple weeks ago I was able to find a local reefer on r2r to come over to give me a hand with something and I asked if they thought my yellow tang could have hlle. They mentioned that he looked pretty rough. I ordered up vita chem and some frozen lrs reef frenzy. The tangs are eating the sea veggies soaked in selcon and vita chem. I’ve been feeding them this everyday for just shy of two weeks. It’s very difficult to get pictures as the fish hideout when people get close and I can barely see and have tremors but I was finally able to get a pic today. I’m told the pic appears much worse than in real life as by eye the white are much more yellow, just lighter but the pics appear totally white? Again, this is from a non-reefer. As it’s been going on for at least a month, I don’t think this is a dire emergency but I do want to nurse the guy back to health to the best of my ability. The only thing that coincides with this is running carbon in a reactor maybe six months ago (so a very delayed reaction) and I added ozone shortly after. There is no aggression in the tank. Everyone eats and is active. No other fish are affected, not even the other tang (Tomini) it’s just the yellow tang. There have been no livestock losses or additions. No changes in feeding, lighting, parameters. I’ve had all the fish for five years or so. Tank is a 160 gallon mixed reef, barebottom with plenty of flow and light.

Salinity 1.026
Temp 77.3-77.9
Ph 8.00-8.40
Alk 8.13-8.65
Calc 375-420
Mag 1280-1360
Nitrate 10-12
Phos .08-.10

 

[vetteguy53081]

First, I have very little vision. A yellow tang is just a bright yellow blob/blur to me. A guest (non-reefer) had noticed his tail looked like it had been chewed on and face was turning white about a month ago. So, I ordered up green and purple sea veggies and selcon (normal food is pe pellets and hikari seaweed extreme pellets three times a day). I had tried nori in the past but neither the yellow or Tomini would go for it. A couple weeks ago I was able to find a local reefer on r2r to come over to give me a hand with something and I asked if they thought my yellow tang could have hlle. They mentioned that he looked pretty rough. I ordered up vita chem and some frozen lrs reef frenzy. The tangs are eating the sea veggies soaked in selcon and vita chem. I’ve been feeding them this everyday for just shy of two weeks. It’s very difficult to get pictures as the fish hideout when people get close and I can barely see and have tremors but I was finally able to get a pic today. I’m told the pic appears much worse than in real life as by eye the white are much more yellow, just lighter but the pics appear totally white? Again, this is from a non-reefer. As it’s been going on for at least a month, I don’t think this is a dire emergency but I do want to nurse the guy back to health to the best of my ability. The only thing that coincides with this is running carbon in a reactor maybe six months ago (so a very delayed reaction) and I added ozone shortly after. There is no aggression in the tank. Everyone eats and is active. No other fish are affected, not even the other tang (Tomini) it’s just the yellow tang. There have been no livestock losses or additions. No changes in feeding, lighting, parameters. I’ve had all the fish for five years or so. Tank is a 160 gallon mixed reef, barebottom with plenty of flow and light.

Salinity 1.026
Temp 77.3-77.9
Ph 8.00-8.40
Alk 8.13-8.65
Calc 375-420
Mag 1280-1360
Nitrate 10-12
Phos .08-.10

This is a severe case oh HLLE which causes pits and flesh missing mainly in tangs, angels and some rabbitfish. It is often caused by poor water quality, high use of carbon, poor water quality (elevated nitrate and ammonia) and inadequate/poor diet. It is not life threating in any way but offers secondary infection in some cases.
Maintaining GOOD water quality and diet are often the fixes and with severe cases, some healing.
Some foods to feed tang are :
LRS herbivore diet
Formula 2 flake and frozen
TDO Pellets
small plankton
Hikari Marine cuisine
Ocean nutrition veggie diet
spirulina brine shrimp
mysis shrimp
Prime reef
Nori seaweed basted with garlic extract

Add selcon vitamins to foods occasionally. HOW ARE YOU TESTING WATER?
Also what other fish are in tank with it that cause the tails and fins to be bitten off?

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

This is a severe case oh HLLE which causes pits and flesh missing mainly in tangs, angels and some rabbitfish. It is often caused by poor water quality, high use of carbon, poor water quality (elevated nitrate and ammonia) and inadequate/poor diet. It is not life threating in any way but offers secondary infection in some cases.
Maintaining GOOD water quality and diet are often the fixes and with severe cases, some healing.
Some foods to feed tang are :
LRS herbivore diet
Formula 2 flake and frozen
TDO Pellets
small plankton
Hikari Marine cuisine
Ocean nutrition veggie diet
spirulina brine shrimp
mysis shrimp
Prime reef
Nori seaweed basted with garlic extract

Add selcon vitamins to foods occasionally. HOW ARE YOU TESTING WATER?
Also what other fish are in tank with it that cause the tails and fins to be bitten off?

Water quality is stellar. Alk, ca, mag are tested by a trident. Alk is double checked with a Hanna checker once a month now (tank has historically been very stable and was originally tested daily, then weekly, and now monthly). Ca and mag are rarely verified as they have been stable and I am unable to perform titration tests and require someone with vision to perform them for me.

Nitrate/phosphate are tested by Hanna checkers once a month now as it has been quite stable. I was finally able to stop dosing sodium phosphate dibasic (bare bottom dry rock start that needed phosphate dosing for several years). I also dose ammonium chloride to maintain nitrate which is very consistent. Phosphate did creep up after starting dosing ammonium ( up to .13 at which point I stopped dosing phosphate) I also dose a small amount of vinegar. Everything is automated. Auto 2% daily water changes.

Display and fresh saltwater salinity is monitored by an apex and both are checked with a Milwaukee digital refractometer with every new batch. The refractometer was recently verified against a fellow reefers calibrated Hanna pen.

I verify Alk with a Hanna checker on every new batch as I use IO salt and add 50ml of muriatic acid to reduce Alk to 8-8.5.

I have a seven stage rodi with extra membrane and extra mixed bed chamber with 0tds water.

My initial thought was the addition of ozone (15 minutes per hour into skimmer with orp of 250-320 and no carbon post). This has been dismissed as others that noted hlle after ozone all had carbon post. I did run rox .8 carbon in a reactor about six months ago. I have used this same carbon in a reactor multiple times over the years with no ill effects but I’m not dismissing that as a cause as it seems the most plausible so far.

There is no aggression in the tank, the tail chewing comment was from a non-reefing guest. I’m guessing fin rot. The other fish are blue green chromis, a Tomini tang, a matted filefish, and a pair of clowns. The clowns do not bother anyone. The yellow tang used to let a cleaner shrimp clean him frequently (for years) but does not hang out with the cleaner shrimp since this started.

Tank is running kalkwasser at my evap limit of 2.7 gallons per day and has a calcium reactor. All other inhabitants (fish, sps, lps, softies, anemones, inverts) are perfect.

Edit. I forgot to thank you for your reply! Oops. Thank you

Oh and a blurry out of focus pic of the entire tank for reference

 

[vetteguy53081]

Water quality is stellar. Alk, ca, mag are tested by a trident. Alk is double checked with a Hanna checker once a month now (tank has historically been very stable and was originally tested daily, then weekly, and now monthly). Ca and mag are rarely verified as they have been stable and I am unable to perform titration tests and require someone with vision to perform them for me.

Nitrate/phosphate are tested by Hanna checkers once a month now as it has been quite stable. I was finally able to stop dosing sodium phosphate dibasic (bare bottom dry rock start that needed phosphate dosing for several years). I also dose ammonium chloride to maintain nitrate which is very consistent. Phosphate did creep up after starting dosing ammonium ( up to .13 at which point I stopped dosing phosphate) I also dose a small amount of vinegar. Everything is automated. Auto 2% daily water changes.

Display and fresh saltwater salinity is monitored by an apex and both are checked with a Milwaukee digital refractometer with every new batch. The refractometer was recently verified against a fellow reefers calibrated Hanna pen.

I verify Alk with a Hanna checker on every new batch as I use IO salt and add 50ml of muriatic acid to reduce Alk to 8-8.5.

I have a seven stage rodi with extra membrane and extra mixed bed chamber with 0tds water.

My initial thought was the addition of ozone (15 minutes per hour into skimmer with orp of 250-320 and no carbon post). This has been dismissed as others that noted hlle after ozone all had carbon post. I did run rox .8 carbon in a reactor about six months ago. I have used this same carbon in a reactor multiple times over the years with no ill effects but I’m not dismissing that as a cause as it seems the most plausible so far.

There is no aggression in the tank, the tail chewing comment was from a non-reefing guest. I’m guessing fin rot. The other fish are blue green chromis, a Tomini tang, a matted filefish, and a pair of clowns. The clowns do not bother anyone. The yellow tang used to let a cleaner shrimp clean him frequently (for years) but does not hang out with the cleaner shrimp since this started.

Tank is running kalkwasser at my evap limit of 2.7 gallons per day and has a calcium reactor. All other inhabitants (fish, sps, lps, softies, anemones, inverts) are perfect.

While trident known to provide off results, its not that water issue that is of concern but rather ammonia-nitrate and PH. A fish does not acquire thus overnight but rather over time and something whether water or diet is contributing to this. This is not classic fin rot and appears to have been bitten and clowns who are often on their best behavior in your presence are my suspects, capable of biting and causing damage.
2 gallon daily water changes which I too do should sustain good water quality but something is off. . . . likely then dietary. The highest cause dietary wise is low or lack of fatty acids and vitamin c deficiency

 

[00W]

First, I have very little vision. A yellow tang is just a bright yellow blob/blur to me. A guest (non-reefer) had noticed his tail looked like it had been chewed on and face was turning white about a month ago. So, I ordered up green and purple sea veggies and selcon (normal food is pe pellets and hikari seaweed extreme pellets three times a day). I had tried nori in the past but neither the yellow or Tomini would go for it. A couple weeks ago I was able to find a local reefer on r2r to come over to give me a hand with something and I asked if they thought my yellow tang could have hlle. They mentioned that he looked pretty rough. I ordered up vita chem and some frozen lrs reef frenzy. The tangs are eating the sea veggies soaked in selcon and vita chem. I’ve been feeding them this everyday for just shy of two weeks. It’s very difficult to get pictures as the fish hideout when people get close and I can barely see and have tremors but I was finally able to get a pic today. I’m told the pic appears much worse than in real life as by eye the white are much more yellow, just lighter but the pics appear totally white? Again, this is from a non-reefer. As it’s been going on for at least a month, I don’t think this is a dire emergency but I do want to nurse the guy back to health to the best of my ability. The only thing that coincides with this is running carbon in a reactor maybe six months ago (so a very delayed reaction) and I added ozone shortly after. There is no aggression in the tank. Everyone eats and is active. No other fish are affected, not even the other tang (Tomini) it’s just the yellow tang. There have been no livestock losses or additions. No changes in feeding, lighting, parameters. I’ve had all the fish for five years or so. Tank is a 160 gallon mixed reef, barebottom with plenty of flow and light.

Salinity 1.026
Temp 77.3-77.9
Ph 8.00-8.40
Alk 8.13-8.65
Calc 375-420
Mag 1280-1360
Nitrate 10-12
Phos .08-.10

It sounds like you have a great handle on your tank.
I am not a fish medic in any way but mine was given to me in almost this same state.
I started to feed new life spectrum pellets once a day and any meaty foods I could.
Formula 1,prime reef, brine shrimp, clams, marine cuisine. Whatever it decided to try.
More fat.
Slowly he got better.
Agree with @vetteguy53081 tail looks munched on.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

While trident known to provide off results, its not that water issue that is of concern but rather ammonia-nitrate and PH. A fish does not acquire thus overnight but rather over time and something whether water or diet is contributing to this. This is not classic fin rot and appears to have been bitten and clowns who are often on their best behavior in your presence are my suspects, capable of biting and causing damage.
2 gallon daily water changes which I too do should sustain good water quality but something is off. . . . likely then dietary. The highest cause dietary wise is low or lack of fatty acids and vitamin c deficiency

The not happening overnight is completely on me. I have very little vision and am legally blind. There is no way for me to notice anything at all. The only visitors I have are non-reefers and aren’t examining my fish. It was just happenstance that someone noticed the color loss and I had to pry to see if it was around the eyes, down the side and pitted and the response I got wasn’t much help. When I was able to find a fellow reefer on r2r to come over and give me a hand, the fish of course was hiding so they couldn’t get a good view but was thinking along the same lines hlle/fin rot. They really noticed the top fin, more so than the tail. This for sure could have been going on for some time. I was thinking at least a month or two.

Edit. I forgot ammonia. It’s quite fine. Another test I have to have someone else perform but we just did one recently as I’ve been doing ammonium chloride and it’s perfectly fine. It was he Red Sea pro test and I forgot the actual number (.02 or .2) but when you do the conversion by the chart based on ph and whatnot it was perfectly fine and no where near any level of concern. Again don’t quote me on the exact number as I had someone else perform the test and read the chart and all that. I only cared if it was trending upwards which it wasn’t.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

First, I have very little vision. A yellow tang is just a bright yellow blob/blur to me. A guest (non-reefer) had noticed his tail looked like it had been chewed on and face was turning white about a month ago. So, I ordered up green and purple sea veggies and selcon (normal food is pe pellets and hikari seaweed extreme pellets three times a day). I had tried nori in the past but neither the yellow or Tomini would go for it. A couple weeks ago I was able to find a local reefer on r2r to come over to give me a hand with something and I asked if they thought my yellow tang could have hlle. They mentioned that he looked pretty rough. I ordered up vita chem and some frozen lrs reef frenzy. The tangs are eating the sea veggies soaked in selcon and vita chem. I’ve been feeding them this everyday for just shy of two weeks. It’s very difficult to get pictures as the fish hideout when people get close and I can barely see and have tremors but I was finally able to get a pic today. I’m told the pic appears much worse than in real life as by eye the white are much more yellow, just lighter but the pics appear totally white? Again, this is from a non-reefer. As it’s been going on for at least a month, I don’t think this is a dire emergency but I do want to nurse the guy back to health to the best of my ability. The only thing that coincides with this is running carbon in a reactor maybe six months ago (so a very delayed reaction) and I added ozone shortly after. There is no aggression in the tank. Everyone eats and is active. No other fish are affected, not even the other tang (Tomini) it’s just the yellow tang. There have been no livestock losses or additions. No changes in feeding, lighting, parameters. I’ve had all the fish for five years or so. Tank is a 160 gallon mixed reef, barebottom with plenty of flow and light.

Salinity 1.026
Temp 77.3-77.9
Ph 8.00-8.40
Alk 8.13-8.65
Calc 375-420
Mag 1280-1360
Nitrate 10-12
Phos .08-.10

Yes - that’s a very severe case of HLLE. This level is typically permanent, you won’t be able to reverse it.

Here is an article I wrote about the connection between HLLE and carbon use:

Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[00W]

With patience/time/dedication it can be fixed possibly....
No worries.

 

[College_Reefer]

I had HLLE happen on my tangs like 4 months after transferring the tank to my new house. Like you, I have very good water quality and didn't use any carbon, so I was sort of at a loss. I added selcon to their food for about a week but got very mixed signals on whether it would actually help or not directly, so I stopped. What ended up working was I switched to spirulina mysis and Hikari seaweed extreme as well as added more nori feedings throughout the week. On top of that, I added a grounding probe because there is some literature out there that stray voltage can contribute HLLE as well and doing that combination almost entirely reversed the effects.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Yes - that’s a very severe case of HLLE. This level is typically permanent, you won’t be able to reverse it.

Here is an article I wrote about the connection between HLLE and carbon use:

Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

Thank you Jay! I’ve read that back and forth trying to tell what’s going on here based on words alone!

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

It sounds like you have a great handle on your tank.
I am not a fish medic in any way but mine was given to me in almost this same state.
I started to feed new life spectrum pellets once a day and any meaty foods I could.
Formula 1,prime reef, brine shrimp, clams, marine cuisine. Whatever it decided to try.
More fat.
Slowly he got better.
Agree with @vetteguy53081 tail looks munched on.

Thank you! I try the best I can with what’s going on. Luckily I nerd and had everything auromated

 

[vetteguy53081]

The not happening overnight is completely on me. I have very little vision and am legally blind. There is no way for me to notice anything at all. The only visitors I have are non-reefers and aren’t examining my fish. It was just happenstance that someone noticed the color loss and I had to pry to see if it was around the eyes, down the side and pitted and the response I got wasn’t much help. When I was able to find a fellow reefer on r2r to come over and give me a hand, the fish of course was hiding so they couldn’t get a good view but was thinking along the same lines hlle/fin rot. They really noticed the top fin, more so than the tail. This for sure could have been going on for some time. I was thinking at least a month or two.

Edit. I forgot ammonia. It’s quite fine. Another test I have to have someone else perform but we just did one recently as I’ve been doing ammonium chloride and it’s perfectly fine. It was he Red Sea pro test and I forgot the actual number (.02 or .2) but when you do the conversion by the chart based on ph and whatnot it was perfectly fine and no where near any level of concern. Again don’t quote me on the exact number as I had someone else perform the test and read the chart and all that. I only cared if it was trending upwards which it wasn’t.

.2 would pose an issue and the other would be good

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

.2 would pose an issue and the other would be good

That was the color card result prior to calculation. So .2 total nh3/nh4 converted according to the chart based on temp and ph to .0176 free ammonia which should be ok. I had to ask to retrace the info as I can’t read the chart to convert and didn’t memorize the final result thinking it was perfectly fine.

Edit. I have been dosing ammonium chloride for about a year to maintain nitrate (it quickly drops to zero without dosing) so that is probably skewing the result somewhat)

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Yes - that’s a very severe case of HLLE. This level is typically permanent, you won’t be able to reverse it.

Here is an article I wrote about the connection between HLLE and carbon use:

Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

Quick question after reading the article for the tenth time. I was a visual learning person so my audible comprehension lacks quite a bit. I think I understood that carbon fines could stay in a tank long after running carbon (in the substrate, etc) and there was mention of removing the sand bed to help reduce the fines for new susceptible fish. I’m curious as to how this would affect a higher flow bare bottom tank? The only area I can think of that may be an issue long term, is the mulm in the sump and crevices within the rock work. I can easily (so to speak) remove the mulm and sanitize the sump, but the rock work would be problematic. In theory I could blow out the rock work while running a power filter of sorts, but I’m thinking that might cause more harm than good unless I was to remove the fish during the process. Who knows how long that would take or how efficient a diy power filter (Dutch style with floss) would be at removing any fines, I have a roller filter but am thinking the fines (if present) have just passed on through (guessing they would be smaller than 25 microns) and continued dispersing throughout. I’m pretty limited as to what I can actually do on my own.

 

[KrisReef]

I don't concur that "there is no aggression in the tank."

I think you may need to feed more to reduce fighting? The other tang (Tomini) is highly suspect from a competition standpoint>

The yellow can probably be happier with an improved diet, and removal of whatever is nipping at the fishes fins, if there is something?

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

I think you may need to feed more to reduce fighting? The other tang (Tomini) is highly suspect from a competition standpoint>

The yellow can probably be happier with an improved diet, and removal of whatever is nipping at the fishes fins, if there is something?

I am certain there is no fighting or aggression. That much, I am able to confirm. I’m leaning towards running carbon in the past. I’m no fish specialist by any stretch of the imagination. I have read a ton on this as of late and it seems common for hlle to progress to fin damage/loss if left to progress as i evidently have. I have read several posts (in response to hlle damage) from @Jay Hemdal where it was commented that the fin damage/loss will never grow back after this (not trying to put words in his mouth here, and I could of course be totally wrong asi often am). Of course I can’t visually tell the difference between the Hlle related fin damage (there are many pictures in these threads but they don’t do me any good) and damage caused by aggression/attacks. As far as nutrition, the fish have had the same diet for the over five years I’ve had them in this tank so I would think if that were a root cause that it would have appeared long ago. That said, I’m not dismissing it as a contributing factor. All signs would seem to point to my use of carbon. While I have always used rox .8, I did just confirm that my last container was lignite. I’m assuming they were out and I thoughtlessly subbed lignite. I think that was during the whole pandemic thing and stock was just chaotic! I haven’t purchased carbon in years as I rarely run it.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Quick question after reading the article for the tenth time. I was a visual learning person so my audible comprehension lacks quite a bit. I think I understood that carbon fines could stay in a tank long after running carbon (in the substrate, etc) and there was mention of removing the sand bed to help reduce the fines for new susceptible fish. I’m curious as to how this would affect a higher flow bare bottom tank? The only area I can think of that may be an issue long term, is the mulm in the sump and crevices within the rock work. I can easily (so to speak) remove the mulm and sanitize the sump, but the rock work would be problematic. In theory I could blow out the rock work while running a power filter of sorts, but I’m thinking that might cause more harm than good unless I was to remove the fish during the process. Who knows how long that would take or how efficient a diy power filter (Dutch style with floss) would be at removing any fines, I have a roller filter but am thinking the fines (if present) have just passed on through (guessing they would be smaller than 25 microns) and continued dispersing throughout. I’m pretty limited as to what I can actually do on my own.

Mulm in a sump is a common repository for carbon fines.

Minimizing carbon fines can be done by using hard pelleted carbon, rinsing it well before use, not tumbling the carbon in a reactor, and running protein skimmers “wet”.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Mulm in a sump is a common repository for carbon fines.

Minimizing carbon fines can be done by using hard pelleted carbon, rinsing it well before use, not tumbling the carbon in a reactor, and running protein skimmers “wet”.

Thank you Jay. I have always run rox .8, but did confirm my last container was lignite (guessing I foolishly subbed during the pandemic due to availability). I will clean out the mulm and sanitize the sump tomorrow.

 

[Tamberav]

I know everyone keeps mentioning aggression but HLLE can also affect the fins when it is advanced as looks like this to me.

Seems to coincide with carbon but I would feed the best diet possible and clean the sump.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

I know everyone keeps mentioning aggression but HLLE can also affect the fins when it is advanced as looks like this to me.

Seems to coincide with carbon but I would feed the best diet possible and clean the sump.

That is my current course of action. I started feeding tlf sea veggies (green and purple) as well as frozen lrs reef frenzy soaked in vita chem and selcon as soon as this condition was brought to my attention a little while back, assuming it was Hlle. I am totally to blame for it going unnoticed for so long, but I am severely visually impaired so I have a slight excuse. However, I still feel horrible about it. These guys depend on me for everything and I failed. I posted up here for verification as I was finally able to get a picture (the fish all hide when people get close to the tank….I don’t know why, I don’t yell at them or anything! Plus it’s usually with a peace offering of tasty food). In the last month I have read absolutely everything I could in regards to hlle. It would appear that most everything has been ruled out as wives tales (stray voltage, vitamin c deficiency, etc.) and that soft (lignite) carbon is the most common causation. Also, noted that diet will most likely not heal this condition and such as the case with my tang, the scarring may be permanent. I was worried about a secondary infection as my readings had mentioned that as happening in severe cases. As no one mentioned placing the tang in antibiotic treatment I will assume it hasn’t progressed to that point yet and that removing the mulm and continuing vitamin soaked food will hopefully nurse this guy back to reasonable health. Thank you for the reply.