Anyone use the red sea complete reef care (4 part) and recommend it?

[One Reefing Boi]

I had been using their Foundation A/B/C (plus the 4 part trace elements) that look like this (total 7 parts)

But I see now that they have a new 4 part system that is dosed based off of calcium only.

Anyone use this complete care system? Anyone like dosing just by Calcium uptake? Is that a reliable method?

Thanks!

 

[One Reefing Boi]

Oh seems like it is not really released yet -- so maybe we can use this thread for discussion on it.

 

[Hooz]

I've been watching all the videos and reading what's been put out there as I'm interested in this myself. I'm curious to see what @Randy Holmes-Farley thinks of the system.

 

[Doctorgori]

I’m curious what the on going cost will be…AFR isn’t all that bad, and I think this will be a worth6 competitor to it and Balling 3/5pt

 

[Hooz]

I’m curious what the on going cost will be…AFR isn’t all that bad, and I think this will be a worth6 competitor to it and Balling 3/5pt

I'm an AFR guy myself, and I'm interested in this as a "simpler" multi-part solution with trace elements. The 4-part would offer a ph boost that AFR doesn't have, and alk boosts would be "instant" as opposed to the AFR lag.

The downside, of course, is 4 dosing pumps instead of one.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've been watching all the videos and reading what's been put out there as I'm interested in this myself. I'm curious to see what @Randy Holmes-Farley thinks of the system.

"I calcium test per week and your done"

Wow, ignorance is bliss. Don't even test to see you are wildly swinging alkalinity up and down.

I'm against dosing a whole system based on calcium. IMO, it moves much too slowly and has too much testing variability to make it a good way to control the dosing of something that will swing around a lot faster: alkalinity. It's like the tail wagging the dog, IMO.

If a calcium test comes in just 10 ppm low, dosing an extra 10 ppm of calcium is not ever a concern.

But the balanced amount of alkalinity would not be so fine. It would involve dosing an extra 1.4 dKH of alk, on top of what was normally dosed.

Other than that, this product is like a lot of similar products that you need to have a level of trust in the supplier.

It's basically a two part system that has four parts. I also do not think dosing trace elements such as iron based on calcium consumption makes sense. Some tanks can have very high iron consumption (with an ATS or macroalgae and mostly soft corals) relative to calcium consumption, and others may have the opposite (e.g., an SPS tank with heavy coralline and little macroalgae or green algae or soft corals).

I'd personally pick a two part that was properly balanced, and then add trace elements as makes sense for your system, or pick one that seems to fit your tank needs (which might only have two parts, not 4).

i discuss how two part systems like this are designed to achieve different results here:

How a Two Part Alkalinity and Calcium System Works, and Why it Matters

How a Two Part Alkalinity and Calcium System Works, and Why it Matters By Randy Holmes-Farley This article is intended to help aquarists understand some of the important differences between the great variety of two and three part alkalinity and...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[One Reefing Boi]

"I calcium test per week and your done"

Wow, ignorance is bliss. Don't even test to see you are wildly swinging alkalinity up and down.

I'm against dosing a whole system based on calcium. IMO, it moves much too slowly and has too much testing variability to make it a good way to control the dosing of something that will swing around a lot faster: alkalinity. It's like the tail wagging the dog, IMO.

If a calcium test comes in just 10 ppm low, dosing an extra 10 ppm of calcium is not ever a concern.

But the balanced amount of alkalinity would not be so fine. It would involve dosing an extra 1.4 dKH of alk, on top of what was normally dosed.

Other than that, this product is like a lot of similar products that you need to have a level of trust in the supplier.

It's basically a two part system that has four parts. I also do not think dosing trace elements such as iron based on calcium consumption makes sense. Some tanks can have very high iron consumption (with an ATS or macroalgae and mostly soft corals) relative to calcium consumption, and others may have the opposite (e.g., an SPS tank with heavy coralline and little macroalgae or green algae or soft corals).

I'd personally pick a two part that was properly balanced, and then add trace elements as makes sense for your system, or pick one that seems to fit your tank needs (which might only have two parts, not 4).

i discuss how two part systems like this are designed to achieve different results here:

How a Two Part Alkalinity and Calcium System Works, and Why it Matters

How a Two Part Alkalinity and Calcium System Works, and Why it Matters By Randy Holmes-Farley This article is intended to help aquarists understand some of the important differences between the great variety of two and three part alkalinity and...

www.reef2reef.com

Yeah I don’t know if I would trust it either, but right now I use their 7 part system and AB+ so this sounds like a win for me. I’d still test the major elements manually and probably adjust the from there and set them individually, but being able to use my Red Sea dosing pump with this too is nice. Just combining calcium and magnesium would be nice to free up another head and instead of 4 part dosing of trace I would just be able to do 2 part dosing for it.

I use triton approach so I really don’t do water changes as I favor the stability (and being honest, a bit lazy at times lol) so maybe I’ll get it and try it out and post my results here for others

 

[One Reefing Boi]

I’m curious what the on going cost will be…AFR isn’t all that bad, and I think this will be a worth6 competitor to it and Balling 3/5pt

Was told my by LFS

Small 40 Gal $69.95
Medium 80 Gal $109.95
Large 120 Gal $179.95

For about 3 months of supply per tank size

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Was told my by LFS

Small 40 Gal $69.95
Medium 80 Gal $109.95
Large 120 Gal $179.95

For about 3 months of supply per tank size

Wow, they give a wild guess to the nearest penny.

Not a lot of understanding there.

 

[Doctorgori]

Was told my by LFS

Small 40 Gal $69.95
Medium 80 Gal $109.95
Large 120 Gal $179.95

For about 3 months of supply per tank size

That’s all lol … you could drink 3 months of top shelf bourbon for less, sheez …

Edit add: I’ll gladly pay RHF on Tuesday for another DIY 4pt solution today (or so says Wimpy) lol

Wow, they give a wild guess to the nearest penny.

Not a lot of understanding there.

109.95 “appears” a lot cheaper than $110 lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just for fun, let's see what alk dose they assumed for 120 gallons, $179.95.

Of course, I do not know their selling price for AFR, but if you were to buy it from BRS, $179.95 gives you about 4 L, with shipping.

120 gallons is about 454 L
AFR is about 6,000 dKH, so 4 L will add 24000 dKH divided over 454 L giving a boost of 53 dKH.

If that is supposed to supplement for 3 months (90 days), then they are assuming a boost of ONLY 0.6 dKH per day.

That is the low end of a reef tank demand.

I would expect many reef tanks need 2-6 times as much as the LFS cost estimate above.

For a typical 2 dKH per day, the 3 month cost is more like $600.

 

[Js.Aqua.Project]

So I had not heard of this system so I made my way over to their site to learn about it and here are some screen shots for some of their claims:

And here is the manual:
Complete Reef Care Manual

Is Calcium really "the" key indicator of coral growth? Seems like a stretch of a claim to me.

While I like the concept of testing only one thing a week I really don't think that is practical nor accurate enough to really keep our corals thriving. Alive yes, happy...maybe, but not thriving.

 

[Doctorgori]

Just for fun, let's see what alk dose they assumed for 120 gallons, $179.95.

Of course, I do not know their selling price for AFR, but if you were to buy it from BRS, $179.95 gives you about 4 L, with shipping.

120 gallons is about 454 L
AFR is about 6,000 dKH, so 4 L will add 24000 dKH divided over 454 L giving a boost of 53 dKH.

If that is supposed to supplement for 3 months (90 days), then they are assuming a boost of ONLY 0.6 dKH per day.

That is the low end of a reef tank demand.

I would expect many reef tanks need 2-6 times as much as the LFS cost estimate above.

For a typical 2 dKH per day, the 3 month cost is more like $600.

you could get a 60 month 35,000 New CARS Under 35k
payment is $635
edit … laughs added

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is Calcium really "the" key indicator of coral growth? Seems like a stretch of a claim to me.

I agree it makes no sense. It assumes that a tank with little coralline and all soft corals and other noncalcifying organisms (anemones, etc.) will use no trace elements.

 

[areefer01]

Just for fun, let's see what alk dose they assumed for 120 gallons, $179.95.

Of course, I do not know their selling price for AFR, but if you were to buy it from BRS, $179.95 gives you about 4 L, with shipping.

120 gallons is about 454 L
AFR is about 6,000 dKH, so 4 L will add 24000 dKH divided over 454 L giving a boost of 53 dKH.

If that is supposed to supplement for 3 months (90 days), then they are assuming a boost of ONLY 0.6 dKH per day.

That is the low end of a reef tank demand.

I would expect many reef tanks need 2-6 times as much as the LFS cost estimate above.

For a typical 2 dKH per day, the 3 month cost is more like $600.

You mentioned AFR above - are you talking about Tropic Marin All For Reef (I'm assuming so). If so the 1600 g powder container makes 10 liters and costs $74 US pre tax and shipping. Tax is moot as is shipping because one may buy it online or local.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You mentioned AFR above - are you talking about Tropic Marin All For Reef (I'm assuming so). If so the 1600 g powder container makes 10 liters and costs $74 US pre tax and shipping. Tax is moot as is shipping because one may buy it online or local.

Yes, Tropic Marin AFR is what I am referring to and I gave the exact data and place to purchase it (including shipping) to support it. I picked the largest (cheapest by L) premade container that BRS sells. There may be other ways to buy it cheaper or more expensive than I mentioned, but I stand by my comment that the LFS costs are based on a low dose and are crazily specific for something where each user will sue a different amount.

 

[Js.Aqua.Project]

I agree it makes no sense. It assumes that a tank with little coralline and all soft corals and other noncalcifying organisms (anemones, etc.) will use no trace elements.

I read through their manual and the last paragraph is:
"Why use Calcium and not Alkalinity for dosing Complete Reef Care?

Since we have stated that the 36 Major, Minor and Trace elements including the Alkalinity components are used up in a relatively fixed ratio, it may seem logical that the Complete Reef Care supplements can be dosed based on a measurement of the Alkalinity instead of Calcium, however, this does not work. Almost all the Calcium and most of the other 36 elements are taken up exclusively by the biogeochemical processes of the corals, and therefore there is a direct relationship between coral growth and the Calcium uptake. The Carbonate and Bicarbonate Alkalinity components that are used by the corals to form its skeleton is an important part of the Total Alkalinity of the aquarium water, however, the measured Total Alkalinity also includes the Alkalinity of many other components such as Borate, Phosphate, Fluoride, Silicate, Sulfate, Nitrate, and organic compounds. These other components of Total Alkalinity are easily affected by many non-coral related processes, such as water changes, foods, supplements, buildup of organics and byproducts of bacterial activity. Furthermore, there are other biogeochemical processes such as photosynthesis and nitrification that also consume Carbonate Alkalinity components. Dosing all 4-parts based on the uptake of Alkalinity, will also dose the Calcium and other elements that were not depleted by calcification. This will lead to higher concentrations of Ca and other trace elements, which will cause precipitation and a drop in Alkalinity that will break the delicate chemical balance of the water. On the other hand, corals have the ability to regulate the Carbonate Alkalinity inside their calcification centers and are able to adapt to slight changes in the Alkalinity of the aquarium water."

I think they knew that you might doubt their methods...

 

[areefer01]

Yes, Tropic Marin AFR is what I am referring to and I gave the exact data and place to purchase it (including shipping) to support it. I picked the largest (cheapest by L) premade container that BRS sells. There may be other ways to buy it cheaper or more expensive than I mentioned, but I stand by my comment that the LFS costs are based on a low dose and are crazily specific for something where each user will sue a different amount.

I guess I'm confused as to where you see that product for $179.

Edit: maybe you are using it from post 8 (Large 120 Gal $179.95)? Or maybe buying power based on that number. While I don't know what the break down for TM sales between liquid and powder the general consensus is pre-made liquid for small tanks and powder for larger applications.

Edit 2: I didn't question your stance. Only a question on the cost as I read it. I think you would agree using the 1600g powder container is more economical should one choose an all in one solution.

Anyway error appears to be on my side as I read your post I took at it as AFR is 179...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I read through their manual and the last paragraph is:
"Why use Calcium and not Alkalinity for dosing Complete Reef Care?

Since we have stated that the 36 Major, Minor and Trace elements including the Alkalinity components are used up in a relatively fixed ratio, it may seem logical that the Complete Reef Care supplements can be dosed based on a measurement of the Alkalinity instead of Calcium, however, this does not work. Almost all the Calcium and most of the other 36 elements are taken up exclusively by the biogeochemical processes of the corals, and therefore there is a direct relationship between coral growth and the Calcium uptake. The Carbonate and Bicarbonate Alkalinity components that are used by the corals to form its skeleton is an important part of the Total Alkalinity of the aquarium water, however, the measured Total Alkalinity also includes the Alkalinity of many other components such as Borate, Phosphate, Fluoride, Silicate, Sulfate, Nitrate, and organic compounds. These other components of Total Alkalinity are easily affected by many non-coral related processes, such as water changes, foods, supplements, buildup of organics and byproducts of bacterial activity. Furthermore, there are other biogeochemical processes such as photosynthesis and nitrification that also consume Carbonate Alkalinity components. Dosing all 4-parts based on the uptake of Alkalinity, will also dose the Calcium and other elements that were not depleted by calcification. This will lead to higher concentrations of Ca and other trace elements, which will cause precipitation and a drop in Alkalinity that will break the delicate chemical balance of the water. On the other hand, corals have the ability to regulate the Carbonate Alkalinity inside their calcification centers and are able to adapt to slight changes in the Alkalinity of the aquarium water."

I think they knew that you might doubt their methods...

Wow, I'm surprised they'd write that stuff. Much of it is wrong, much is simply misleading (in the category of true but irrelevant) and much of it applies to calcium the same as alkalinity.

Worse still (and this is the huge kicker, IMO) , if you believe what they write, how could monitoring calcium possibly hope to appropriately maintain alkalinity without testing, since so many processes deplete alkalinity and not calcium. They minimize the alk changes as "slight" while obviously the calcium changes of doing the opposite would also be slight. The want their cake, and to eat it too.

Random assertions with no evidence that may apply sometimes and not others

Almost all the Calcium and most of the other 36 elements are taken up exclusively by the biogeochemical processes of the corals,

and therefore there is a direct relationship between coral growth and the Calcium uptake.
[soft corals? remember them?]

, the measured Total Alkalinity also includes the Alkalinity of many other components such as Borate, Phosphate, Fluoride, Silicate, Sulfate, Nitrate, and organic compounds.


Just Wrong

the measured Total Alkalinity also includes the Alkalinity of many other components such as Borate, Phosphate, Fluoride, Silicate, Sulfate, Nitrate, and organic compounds.

there are other biogeochemical processes such as photosynthesis and nitrification that also consume Carbonate Alkalinity components.

it may seem logical that the Complete Reef Care supplements can be dosed based on a measurement of the Alkalinity instead of Calcium, however, this does not work

Dosing all 4-parts based on the uptake of Alkalinity, will also dose the Calcium and other elements that were not depleted by calcification. This will lead to higher concentrations of Ca and other trace elements, which will cause precipitation and a drop in Alkalinity that will break the delicate chemical balance of the water.

 

[One Reefing Boi]

They also mention that if you run a refugium then you shouldn’t use this and dose the trace elements manually and stick to their 7 part system