An Attempt to Generate Benthic Biofilm for Substrate Feeders

[livinlifeinBKK]

Hey guys, so as some of you already know, I'm trying to develop a solution to feeding substrate-feeding starfish such as Fromias and Linckias among others in an effort to make it possible for more people to keep them. This is just one idea among others I've had over the past week and just thought I'd post it. I will admit that there are plenty of holes in the idea I still need to solve for and am working diligently on. Also keep in mind that I wrote this up pretty quickly so some details have been left out...partly due to time constraint and partly due to the fact I doubt many people would care to read through it all if I included every detail. If successful, the end result will be a small filter pad covered in the biofilm which would be a very easy and simple way to feed.

-----Obtain live rock fresh from the ocean (preferably covered in coralline, sponges, bryozoans, and even small levels of fungal growth). These naturally cultured rocks will serve to inoculate other rocks, culture media, and growth pads. (A pre-sterilized tank will be used.)

-----Several swabs of the rocks will be taken and agar plates will be inoculated with the microfauna as soon as possible in order to grow samples before more alteration to the microbiome has a chance to occur.

-----Use REAL ocean water collected in close proximity to the native habitats of these stars. As DOM in the surrounding benthic community has been shown to exert a strong influence on the structure and succession of marine biofilm communities, I aim to avoid causing a nutrient imbalance at this early stage. The bioavailability of DOC also influences composition and even affects the uptake and utilization of other nutrients.

-----Place small pieces of sterile dry rock, several glass microscope slides, glass fiber filters, and a dead coral skeleton into the aquarium as well.

-----Make use of a standard HOB filter to aid in water movement.

-----Some glass slides will be suspended in the water column where the circulation of the water will allow for the natural inoculation of microalgae which will begin the process of biofilm generation. Other glass slides will be swabbed with mature biofilm. Some glass fiber filters will be put in contact with the mature rocks to test the tendency and ease of spread of the biofilm present.

-----Once biofilm has been established on the glass slides, a comparison will be made between its consistency and the consistency of the original culture plates.
The pads will then be inoculated and tests will be conducted to ensure the biofilm is accepted as a food source by benthic organisms.

------Measurements of consumption will be taken.

Again, this is a very basic methodology I'm not close to finished with yet. Biofilm is actually VERY complex and to my knowledge nobody has attempted this before so even though I plan to edit and modify my methods a bit, I wouldn't expect success the first time around but that doesn't concern me.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

@revhtree can you put this in a different forum so people can see it on the main page?
@Jay Hemdal Jay can you move this to a different forum so people can see it?

 

[A Young reefer]

following!

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

following!

Just think of the applications for something like this (even beyond using it as a food source)... developing beneficial biofilms in new tanks is a big issue a lot of people face and can take a while to form...I think there could be numerous applications to developing and perfecting a process like this

 

[hart24601]

I personally have been dosing small amounts of vodka for years. Not for nutrient reduction but to boost the food web. Many people dosing carbon noticed, especially in it’s prime several years ago, a explosion in filter feeders such as tube worms and sponges. I kept a blue Linckia several years until I took down that system and sold the livestock. I credit that to the carbon dosing and boosting biofilms and other micro and macroscopic life. Looking at tropic Marin new products it seems they have come to similar conclusions with their carbon dosing additives but to increase the biofilm on the coral and provide greater phosphate uptake.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I personally have been dosing small amounts of vodka for years. Not for nutrient reduction but to boost the food web. Many people dosing carbon noticed, especially in it’s prime several years ago, a explosion in filter feeders such as tube worms and sponges. I kept a blue Linckia several years until I took down that system and sold the livestock. I credit that to the carbon dosing and boosting biofilms and other micro and macroscopic life. Looking at tropic Marin new products it seems they have come to similar conclusions with their carbon dosing additives but to increase the biofilm on the coral and provide greater phosphate uptake.

I've investigated that an am a big fan of carbon dosing myself! I do it to boost bacterioplankton production. It's primarily the free swimming bacteria that benefit from carbon dosing though instead of the substrate adhered bacteria. While I do believe it helps to some extent, I highly suspect substrate feeders need the diversity present in their natural biofilm diet for optimal health. How big was your tank? That's another thing, I'm trying to make it possible for those with smaller tanks to be able to successfully keep them.

 

[hart24601]

I've investigated that an am a big fan of carbon dosing myself! I do it to boost bacterioplankton production. It's primarily the free swimming bacteria that benefit from carbon dosing though instead of the substrate adhered bacteria. While I do believe it helps to some extent, I highly suspect substrate feeders need the diversity present in their natural biofilm diet for optimal health. How big was your tank? That's another thing, I'm trying to make it possible for those with smaller tanks to be able to successfully keep them.

Over the years I have dosed it in in a 120 (primary), 60 cube, and a 70 waterbox.

I would be quite curious about the impact on substrate adhered bacteria. Advanced aquarist did demonstrate it increased free floating bacteria but to my knowledge no one has shown either way a neutral or positive increase on substrate bound bacteria however with TM advocating carbon for coral biofilms I would suspect while perhaps not as dramatic for free floating organisms carbon dosing does impact, at least to some noticeable amount, substrate bound bacteria. My starfish is just anecdotal example of course so I can’t say for sure. I once had access to a nice flow cytometer but moved to a new career from microbiology so I’m pretty useless now

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Over the years I have dosed it in in a 120 (primary), 60 cube, and a 70 waterbox.

I would be quite curious about the impact on substrate adhered bacteria. Advanced aquarist did demonstrate it increased free floating bacteria but to my knowledge no one has shown either way a neutral or positive increase on substrate bound bacteria however with TM advocating carbon for coral biofilms I would suspect while perhaps not as dramatic for free floating organisms carbon dosing does impact, at least to some noticeable amount, substrate bound bacteria. My starfish is just anecdotal example of course so I can’t say for sure. I once had access to a nice flow cytometer but moved to a new career from microbiology so I’m pretty useless now

I would suspect it does have an effect on benthic bacteria as well but from my research there are so many factors which determine the composition of biofilm I doubt carbon dosing alone would do much especially due to the sheer diversity of organisms which can different greatly in their needs and limiting nutrients

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

@revhtree can you put this in a different forum so people can see it on the main page?
@Jay Hemdal Jay can you move this to a different forum so people can see it?

Thanks!

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I find it very interesting that my Fromia has a sense of smell that seems to direct it to foods such as oysters but part of the motivation for attempting to develop a food source like I am is to ensure their nutritional requirements are being met. Also a smaller tank such as mine is depleted of biofilm faster than it can regenerate in all likeliness.
However, i don't believe their doomed to starvation as is commonly said.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Does anyone have any clever tips to assess the health of starfish? I've heard the whole thing about flipping them over but are there any other ways to estimate health?

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I know this experiment may seem a little "out there" but could you take a look at my first draft here and let me know if you have any suggestions or tips?

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

@livinlifeinBKK - just wanted to say I've actually be looking into doing this same thing (intentionally culturing biofilms for the purpose of attempting to keep starfish) for a while (about two months or so) now too (though, being inland in the US, my methods for attempting it would - of necessity - be fairly different than yours). It looks like it'll be a challenging thing to do, and - like yourself - I don't know if my attempts will be successful (when I'm finally able to try it), but I'm wishing you the best in your endeavors, and I'll be following along to see how it goes (and to see what I can pick up from your attempts).

Good luck!

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

@livinlifeinBKK - just wanted to say I've actually be looking into doing this same thing (intentionally culturing biofilms for the purpose of attempting to keep starfish) for a while (about two months or so) now too (though, being inland in the US, my methods for attempting it would - of necessity - be fairly different than yours). It looks like it'll be a challenging thing to do, and - like yourself - I don't know if my attempts will be successful (when I'm finally able to try it), but I'm wishing you the best in your endeavors, and I'll be following along to see how it goes (and to see what I can pick up from your attempts).

Good luck!

I appreciate you wishing me luck in this challenging endeavor we both find ourselves drawn to! Like you said, it'll almost certainly prove to be a difficult process with no guarantees of success. Id be more than happy to share any discoveries or findings I make with you and collaborate if possible. I also wish you the best of luck in your attempts and if you have any ideas that might help me since we have access to different resources due to our locations please let me know!

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Discovering the composition of benthic biofilms which many organisms eat would be a very important discovery. Not only would it enable us to successfully keep new organisms, but it would shed a lot of light upon a very important part of the marine food web!

 

[damsels are not mean]

You should get in contact with aquabiomics and see if their testing can help you identify relationships between various genera of stars and the specific microbes they eat.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

You should get in contact with aquabiomics and see if their testing can help you identify relationships between various genera of stars and the specific microbes they eat.

Thanks for the idea! I'll try to contact them but tbh I really doubt they know either since some of the most up to date reference books still have no idea...in fact, were not even sure if it's the microbes in the biofilm they need to consume...we've got a lot to learn on this subject!

 

[damsels are not mean]

Thanks for the idea! I'll try to contact them but tbh I really doubt they know either since some of the most up to date reference books still have no idea...in fact, were not even sure if it's the microbes in the biofilm they need to consume...we've got a lot to learn on this subject!

I mean you can possibly figure out what they're eating while you do this. Like scraping biofilm off a section of glass where a star is headed and then scraping again after it passes to compare. Maybe this would help you to find what they are taking from the biofilm exactly so that we could maybe one day culture specific kinds of bacteria or encourage the growth of certain bacteria in order to feed stars.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I mean you can possibly figure out what they're eating while you do this. Like scraping biofilm off a section of glass where a star is headed and then scraping again after it passes to compare. Maybe this would help you to find what they are taking from the biofilm exactly so that we could maybe one day culture specific kinds of bacteria or encourage the growth of certain bacteria in order to feed stars.

That's actually already part of my plan! I have experience with microbiological culturing and part of what's going to make this particularly difficult is the fact that most bacteria, fungi, algae, etc. that form the biofilm do so through symbiotic relationships between each other...Therefore all the associated organisms are dependent on one another and need to be together.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

@damsels are not mean I really appreciate you offering ideas though! Any ideas you may have I'd love to hear them!