(Almost) no water changes on a saltwater tank?

[Himawari]

Hi there!

I’ve had a 30G (110l) freshwater tank for more than five years but am thinking of converting it to a saltwater tank once my last fish passes away.
My dream is to have a tank with two clownfish, one or two yellow tail damsel, and a cleaning crew. I would be okay not adding the damsels if it would allow me to create less waste. Also, I did not mention corals but I guess I would need some to help with the “self-sustaining” side?

The thing is that I live in Japan and apartments are quite small. It’s hard for me to picture doing lots of water changes in a small space and had always told myself that maintaining a saltwater tank would probably not work out.
This is all until I saw YouTube videos that describe ways to do almost no water changes by checking parameters and adding various elements depending on the parameters to make adjustments.

Now I still need to do more research on this but do you think it would be doable?

I would also like to point out that I don’t think I would be able to have a sump as I’m worried earthquakes might spill the water everywhere.

If doable, I am planning on using already made seasalt water to set up my tank and add water when it evaporates. The thing is that it is an expensive option and it’s hard to get here (almost no shop sells already made water), which is another reason why I was looking into ways to do almost no water changes.

Please tell me if this is a stupid idea or not. If you think it’s doable, should I still do water changes for the first few weeks/months before turning to no water changes?

I know that I still need to educate myself on all of this but it would be great if someone could give me some advice

Thanks in advance for your responses!

 

[Fish Fan]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

I can't answer your question as I do rely on water changes, but I'll point out that for a 30 gallon tank you wouldn't need much more than a 5 gallon bucket to do water changes on your tank. You typically only change out a small percentage of the tank's water volume, you're not replacing all the water each time.

Good luck with your tank!

 

[Himawari]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

I can't answer your question as I do rely on water changes, but I'll point out that for a 30 gallon tank you wouldn't need much more than a 5 gallon bucket to do water changes on your tank. You typically only change out a small percentage of the tank's water volume, you're not replacing all the water each time.

Good luck with your tank!

Thank you very much for your response!
I was thinking of doing a 20% water change every two weeks or so in the first few weeks but this would probably be complicated on the long run (especially financially and time-wise/space-wise).
I’ll continue to look into ways to do almost no water changes and will decide if it’s feasible or not.

Thanks!

 

[Spare time]

Macroalgae will be your friend. I don't think the sump would spill anymore than the display during an earthquake, especially since the sump is not supposed to be filled to the brim. A refugium + quality activated carbon + a mechanical filter is all you need.

 

[traumamed]

Some people do it, including a few well-respected reefers on this forum. My take is that it's a harder road, especially initially, compared to utilizing water changes. It's not so much about nutrient import/export balance, which is relatively easy to achieve without WCs. The trick is making sure you replenish what is getting used up. You have to think about things like dosing trace elements, the chemistry of maintaining the ionic balances you want, strategies to maintain a consistent salinity, and avoiding things like heavy metal buildup.

Echoing what was said above, you wouldn't need much more than a five-gallon bucket to go a more traditional route of changing 10-20% of water weekly. If you've never had a salt tank before, it would be difficult to recommend an attempt at going without water changes on your first setup. Once you get to the other side of the learning curve, you can always try it at some point down the road.

 

[littlefoxx]

Can you get your hands on a RODI machine and a bucket of salt mix? Easy to make your own water if you can! And agree with the 5 gallon bucket.

 

[Fish Fan]

Some people do it, including a few well-respected reefers on this forum. My take is that it's a harder road, especially initially, compared to utilizing water changes. It's not so much about nutrient import/export balance, which is relatively easy to achieve without WCs. The trick is making sure you replenish what is getting used up. You have to think about things like dosing trace elements, the chemistry of maintaining the ionic balances you want, strategies to maintain a consistent salinity, and avoiding things like heavy metal buildup.

Echoing what was said above, you wouldn't need much more than a five-gallon bucket to go a more traditional route of changing 10-20% of water weekly. If you've never had a salt tank before, it would be difficult to recommend an attempt at going without water changes on your first setup. Once you get to the other side of the learning curve, you can always try it at some point down the road.

Good reply! I'm going to add, you can either have something like a 5 gallon bucket for water changes, or you're going to need space for a dosing reservoir of some kind.

On a side note, I'm currently trying to learn just a little conversational Japanese, I'm interested in the Japanese culture, and it's someplace I'd love to travel to someday. So I think I have some idea what your living space may be like. But with great respect, I am struggling to see a situation where you can have a tank, but no room for even a bucket or a dosing reservoir. People in very, very tiny New York City apartments have reef tanks. Maybe a pic of your space would help?

I think in the end you may find that figuring out a way to do small water changes is the easier solution to a successful tank. No water change tanks can be done, but this is generally done by very experienced reefers who can identify and replace any deficiencies in the system.

It sounds like you are still running freshwater, so you have some time to consider suggestions and possibilities. AS always, best of luck with whatever you decide!

 

[slingfox]

It sounds like you should not try to run a salt water tank.

 

[305 Steve]

Hi there!

I’ve had a 30G (110l) freshwater tank for more than five years but am thinking of converting it to a saltwater tank once my last fish passes away.
My dream is to have a tank with two clownfish, one or two yellow tail damsel, and a cleaning crew. I would be okay not adding the damsels if it would allow me to create less waste. Also, I did not mention corals but I guess I would need some to help with the “self-sustaining” side?

The thing is that I live in Japan and apartments are quite small. It’s hard for me to picture doing lots of water changes in a small space and had always told myself that maintaining a saltwater tank would probably not work out.
This is all until I saw YouTube videos that describe ways to do almost no water changes by checking parameters and adding various elements depending on the parameters to make adjustments.

Now I still need to do more research on this but do you think it would be doable?

I would also like to point out that I don’t think I would be able to have a sump as I’m worried earthquakes might spill the water everywhere.

If doable, I am planning on using already made seasalt water to set up my tank and add water when it evaporates. The thing is that it is an expensive option and it’s hard to get here (almost no shop sells already made water), which is another reason why I was looking into ways to do almost no water changes.

Please tell me if this is a stupid idea or not. If you think it’s doable, should I still do water changes for the first few weeks/months before turning to no water changes?

I know that I still need to educate myself on all of this but it would be great if someone could give me some advice

Thanks in advance for your responses!

Hello, and welcome! I am going to firstly say that this is a great place to learn and find information pertaining to your potential SW tank. My first recommendation is that you familiarize yourself with what is involved in a SW and reef tank. One great way to do this is watching BRS's 52 weeks of reefing on Youtube.

As per your inquiring about not doing water changes, yes it is possible. The money you are going to save in water and time will likely be spent on testing and dosing. A water change is not only to export waste and nutrients that may pollute the tank or cause outbreaks of nuisance algaes, it also acts as a replenishment of trace elements and other vitamins and nutrients that your tank does need. To be able to export waste solely through skimming and scrubbing and nutrient conversion you must have a very dialed in procedure like Triton method to accomplish and you must replenish the necessary nutrients through dosing. This is a very advanced method and at your skill level i would recommend learning the ropes with baby steps and using tried and true things like water changes and proper cycling procedures to better understand the hobby before diving full steam into the workarounds.

This is a very expensive hobby and doing it wrong will not only be even more expensive in the long run but will take helpless lives that depend on you for survival. Research and respect the patience that must be had to accomplish great things in this space.

 

[VintageReefer]

I don’t do water changes on my 75g or my 1.1g pico but I would echo above and not recommend for someone new. You should be familiar with water changes. If you have a situation arise you’ll need to be comfortable doing them

I keep enough salt on hand to make up to 150 gallons of sw. I could make 100g of sw a few hours if I had a drastic emergency and needed to, because I’m experienced, I know exactly how much salt I need to scoop out, and I have all the supplies - 2x 65g mixing tubs, spare heaters, STRONG powerheads and pumps to mix the water for me, 75ft Python for rapid draining, pumps to refill the tanks, and I have a whole house filtration system so I don’t need to wait for rodi. Never had an emergency calling for this, but I’m experienced and prepared.

Get a bucket. You can buy gallon jugs of deionized filtered water, buy a bag or bucket of salt. It’s easier and you’ll gain experience while you learn the ups and downs of a reef tank

I don’t need water changes nor do I do them, but I am fully prepared if I see signs I need one - small or large

 

[bakbay]

We were in Japan 2 months ago - absolutely love it and can’t wait to be back! I totally understand the lack of space and the challenges of lugging around water, esp in the city.

You can absolutely have a successful reef tank with no WC. My 60g cube never had a WC for 7+ years and its replacement, 150g SPS-dominant cube, will be 4yrs in 2mos, again — no WC. The new 93g frag tank & 450g will not need a WC.

All my tanks use a protein skimmer and a calcium reactor — that’s pretty much it. Given my old back, I can’t lug 5g jugs around anyway.

Good luck with yours!

 

[Himawari]

Thank you so much for all of your great responses! I’m new to reef2reef but you all have such great advice!

I guess I wanted to explore ways to reduce the number of stuff I need to take up less space and make maintenance easier but since it would be my first saltwater thank, I don’t want to risk it all. Maybe some day I can look into doing less WC but I guess I’ll stick to them in the beginning.

I’m really glad I made this post, I thought that water changes were a lot about the nutrient export/import balance but it looks like there’s a bit more to that. It also sounds like I may not need as much space as what I had to imagined
(And having all the supplies in case of an emergency is definitely a good idea anyway)

I’ll try to see if I can get my hands on a rodi machine (they don’t sell deionized filtered water here) and if I can make space to put away everything I need for the WC. I know that I can easily find salt mix but I’m not sure about the rodi machine and a 5G bucket. I did find a shop selling a 2.65G collapsible bucket so that would change everything in terms of storing but it also means that I would have to prepare saltwater twice. Does anyone know how much time preparing saltwater might take?

As for the sump and earthquakes, I actually have a lid that covers almost all of my tank which is why I’m doing fine right now but I’m not sure I would be able to partially cover the sump. I’ll try to see how Japanese people who have a sump prepare for earthquakes.

As I said, I’m still running my tank as freshwater right now and am only exploring my options. I have plenty of time to look into getting started with saltwater.

I also won’t get started if there’s a risk that I can’t make things work.

Thank you all!!

(Fish Fan: Japan is a great place to visit! I hope you’ll be able to come some day! Good luck with your studies too! I think it’s a really cool language to learn, at least I had a lot of fun learning it!)

 

[Fish Fan]

(Fish Fan: Japan is a great place to visit! I hope you’ll be able to come some day! Good luck with your studies too! I think it’s a really cool language to learn, at least I had a lot of fun learning it!)

Thank you very much for your reply! I agree, it's really interesting, and it's been a fun but challenging ride so far.

(they don’t sell deionized filtered water here)

Look for distilled water. Here in the US it's very, very inexpensive (about $1.25 US/US Gallon). It's available at just about every grocery store, pharmacy, or Mega-Lo-Mart (WalMart). It's in the drinking water section for sure, but also look in the baby care section of your local markets too. It will not say "Deionized", simply "Distilled".

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Va...tVP9oLOCBOGwkmm_8gYB184oFVZe61RoaAmafEALw_wcB

 

[Himawari]

Thank you very much for your reply! I agree, it's really interesting, and it's been a fun but challenging ride so far.


Look for distilled water. Here in the US it's very, very inexpensive (about $1.25 US/US Gallon). It's available at just about every grocery store, pharmacy, or Mega-Lo-Mart (WalMart). It's in the drinking water section for sure, but also look in the baby care section of your local markets too. It will not say "Deionized", simply "Distilled".

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Va...tVP9oLOCBOGwkmm_8gYB184oFVZe61RoaAmafEALw_wcB

I think they only sell 1 liter distilled baby water here so I wouldn’t go very far with that…

 

[JPM San Diego]

There are many types of saltwater tanks. Some have just fish (and maybe a few hardy invertebrates). Some have soft corals that don't build a coral skeleton and as such, don't extract calcium, magnesium, and carbonate out of the water. Some have stony corals that do extract these compounds out of the water. You're probably guessing where I'm headed with this conversation. If you're going to attempt a low maintenance, no water change, saltwater system, I strongly recommend starting with a FOWLR set up. (fish only with live rock). This will allow you to keep the lights very low - just enough for fish to navigate - when you are not observing your tank. This will minimize algae growth. One of the fish you choose should be an herbivore. Nothing beats a vertebrate herbivore for keeping your tank free from algae. If you are successful with a FOWLR set up, in the future you could try adding soft coral. Best of luck.
One more suggestion: find someone who is already successfully doing what you want to do and copy their set up. Don't go it alone. Find a buddy or a mentor to guide you.

 

[Fish Fan]

I think they only sell 1 liter distilled baby water here so I wouldn’t go very far with that…

Oh, that is a bummer, it's very typical to find it by the gallon here. I think it's also used in COPD machines, so maybe look around?

If not, the RO Buddy with DI is one of the cheapest and smallest options I know to make your own water at home:

https://www.chewy.com/aquatic-life-...WgWWOAzychyedn6qI1AbyDv4lny-RuCQaAkNeEALw_wcB

The above link is an example, this RODI filter is also sold through Amazon, Walmart and others. Hopefully one will ship to you. It can easily be connected and disconnected from common (at least in the US) faucets like kitchen or bathroom faucets. This means you don't have to have a permanent install or any special hardware, you can hook this filter up to a faucet and make the water you need, then disconnect it without much trouble.

 

[Fish Fan]

A crazy thought, but do you live near the seashore in Japan? Would you have access to clean seawater (as in, not polluted with gas/oil from boats, etc.)?

Back in the day, reefers from pristine locations in Hawaii and maybe even Florida could use seawater they collected from the ocean. Now, there may be some laws in place preventing that, so please check with your local lawmakers. And, you have to ensure that the seawater is pure and clean. But it's a thought, considering you can't be too far from seawater ;-)

 

[Himawari]

There are many types of saltwater tanks. Some have just fish (and maybe a few hardy invertebrates). Some have soft corals that don't build a coral skeleton and as such, don't extract calcium, magnesium, and carbonate out of the water. Some have stony corals that do extract these compounds out of the water. You're probably guessing where I'm headed with this conversation. If you're going to attempt a low maintenance, no water change, saltwater system, I strongly recommend starting with a FOWLR set up. (fish only with live rock). This will allow you to keep the lights very low - just enough for fish to navigate - when you are not observing your tank. This will minimize algae growth. One of the fish you choose should be an herbivore. Nothing beats a vertebrate herbivore for keeping your tank free from algae. If you are successful with a FOWLR set up, in the future you could try adding soft coral. Best of luck.
One more suggestion: find someone who is already successfully doing what you want to do and copy their set up. Don't go it alone. Find a buddy or a mentor to guide you.

I was definitely thinking of having just fish/invertebrates at first and understock my tank as much as possible to minimize waste. I also read online that if I ever chose to add corals, soft corals were the best in terms of less nutrient consumption as you said. I personally am more into fish than corals so I wouldn’t mind not having any at all if it can help lower the maintenance a little.

Great idea on getting a herbivore fish! I might get one along with two clownfish and two/three invertebrates or so as a cleaning crew and that’s it.

Do you think that live rock is better? I can see how beneficial it can be in bringing good bacteria but I also read that some prefer dry rocks as you never know what exactly comes with the live rocks.

I’m not too sure where I would be able to find a mentor but will look into that too! Hopefully I can find someone in Japan as they would know exactly which products are available for setting up and maintaining a saltwater tank

 

[Fish Fan]

In my opinion, good live rock is the easiest way to get your first tank up and running quickly, and with fewer problems as you proceed. Starting with dry rock and sand is fine, but like a 'no water change' system, it's more advanced, and takes a lot longer to complete.

 

[Himawari]

Oh, that is a bummer, it's very typical to find it by the gallon here. I think it's also used in COPD machines, so maybe look around?

If not, the RO Buddy with DI is one of the cheapest and smallest options I know to make your own water at home:

https://www.chewy.com/aquatic-life-...WgWWOAzychyedn6qI1AbyDv4lny-RuCQaAkNeEALw_wcB

The above link is an example, this RODI filter is also sold through Amazon, Walmart and others. Hopefully one will ship to you. It can easily be connected and disconnected from common (at least in the US) faucets like kitchen or bathroom faucets. This means you don't have to have a permanent install or any special hardware, you can hook this filter up to a faucet and make the water you need, then disconnect it without much trouble.

They don’t sell the same one in Japan but this one looks quite similar (I’m not too sure how you would connect it to a faucet though) and the price is reasonable too.

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amzn.asia

I did think about getting actual seawater but I live in Tokyo on the opposite side of the sea so it’s unfortunately not an option