Algea from Florida in a reef

[GARRIGA]

Moving 47 year old reef 60 miles. OMG

So about six months ago our closest friends got a new Grand Son and he lives in Long Island right near where I live. Of course they wanted to see him all the time and they moved to Key Largo a couple of years ago so they bought a condo 60 miles east from my home out on Long Island in wine...

www.reef2reef.com

@Paul B has a thread with a reverse flow ug filter he disassembled after 47 years.

@TokenReefer
I also consider void in plenum under the gravel to be high flow cryptic refugium.

I've known about him a few years. One of the few who still believes in UG. We are becoming extinct, unfortunately. LFS makes more selling fancy looking sumps and skimmers that require constant attention along with newest sock solution being roller mats with some working off the skimmer. Gotta go where the profits lead you. I go where the most practical allows me free time to expand other horizons.

Read his first page. Unfortunately, reading 22 pages not an option but interesting on the mud. I didn't see any pics but probably what I recall seeing although it wasn't mud but more like fine dust when accumulated produced a brown soup but then mine didn't go 20 plus years unattended. This was also mid 70s to late 80s. recollection might be off.

Difference in approach is he is using reverse flow to release detritus vs I just go old school and trap it. Theory I have being that the longer the path the more likely that full decomposition will occur. Nitrification needed to strip the water of DO to allow denitrification of bound action. Why my current experiment forces water to travel through 20" plus of media only 12" wide and four inches tall. The inverse of a typical UG application.

Contact time being my goal and early on this worked but apparently organics have built up to the point I'm unable to strip enough DO and denitrification has stalled or inefficient. I'm unable to provide a slow enough flow which I've tested and has affected the level of nitrates when carbon dosing is eliminated. Why carbon dosing then works in the presence of DO is a mystery and something I just don't grasp. Perhaps one day it will be crystal clear. For now, I know it works and that's good enough at the moment.

Future test build will take this into account and still working out the details. Theory being a single water molecule traveling through a media deeper than it is wide more likely to go from containing ammonia to being stripped of the final oxygen molecule and releasing nitrogen. Makes sense to me. Contact time based on length of contact enhanced by moving at a reduced speed.

 

[GARRIGA]

@TokenReefer
I also consider void in plenum under the gravel to be high flow cryptic refugium.

Zero knowledge on cryptic refugiums but your discussion on sponges has me intrigued. Anything more towards natural is of interest.

 

[TokenReefer]

Thank you @Timfish . Very helpful once again. More homework. Thanks to the rest as well; very informative.

 

[Subsea]

@Paul B

Would you post pictures or link what your UG filter looked like when disassembled after 47 years.
Patrick

I've known about him a few years. One of the few who still believes in UG. We are becoming extinct, unfortunately. LFS makes more selling fancy looking sumps and skimmers that require constant attention along with newest sock solution being roller mats with some working off the skimmer. Gotta go where the profits lead you. I go where the most practical allows me free time to expand other horizons.

Read his first page. Unfortunately, reading 22 pages not an option but interesting on the mud. I didn't see any pics but probably what I recall seeing although it wasn't mud but more like fine dust when accumulated produced a brown soup but then mine didn't go 20 plus years unattended. This was also mid 70s to late 80s. recollection might be off.

Difference in approach is he is using reverse flow to release detritus vs I just go old school and trap it. Theory I have being that the longer the path the more likely that full decomposition will occur. Nitrification needed to strip the water of DO to allow denitrification of bound action. Why my current experiment forces water to travel through 20" plus of media only 12" wide and four inches tall. The inverse of a typical UG application.

Contact time being my goal and early on this worked but apparently organics have built up to the point I'm unable to strip enough DO and denitrification has stalled or inefficient. I'm unable to provide a slow enough flow which I've tested and has affected the level of nitrates when carbon dosing is eliminated. Why carbon dosing then works in the presence of DO is a mystery and something I just don't grasp. Perhaps one day it will be crystal clear. For now, I know it works and that's good enough at the moment.

Future test build will take this into account and still working out the details. Theory being a single water molecule traveling through a media deeper than it is wide more likely to go from containing ammonia to being stripped of the final oxygen molecule and releasing nitrogen. Makes sense to me. Contact time based on length of contact enhanced by moving at a reduced speed.

@GARRIGA

Paul & I both operate reverse flow ug filters. On my 25yr system, I operated a Jaubert Plenum for 20 years with the last 5 years as reverse flow. There were several reasons for discontinuing focus on Jaubert Plenum and denitrification, the main reason being I now add ammonia to keep up with consumption of nitrogen. I don’t need natural nitrate reduction bacteria performing reduction chemistry in low oxygen environment.

On 6” dsb over Jaubert Plenum, 75G display plugged up with organics after 20 years. Over a period of 30 days, I siphoned out 4“ of substrate and installed pump discharge into plenum void. Instead of reduction chemistry bacteria, I use diverse micro fauna & fana with multiple nutrient pathways to recycle inorganic nutrients into organic biomass and move carbon up the food chain as live food in the microbial loop.

A big advantage of reverse flow was to prevent detritus from descending into depths of sandbed to become a nutrient sink. I prefer to promote oxidation chemistry in sandbed which favors micro fauna & fana performing nutrient recycling into organic biomass by providing multiple nutrient pathways to move live food up the food chain. When that organic biomass / nutrient sink is coral, then you can frag & sell for nutrient export.

 

[GARRIGA]

@Paul B

Would you post pictures of what your UG filter looked like when disassembled after 47 years.
Patrick



@GARRIGA

Paul & I both operate reverse flow ug filters. On my 25yr system, I operated a Jaubert Plenum for 20 years with the last 5 years as reverse flow. There were several reasons for discontinuing focus on Jaubert Plenum and denitrification, the main reason being I now add ammonia to keep up with consumption of nitrogen. I don’t need natural nitrate reduction bacteria performing reduction chemistry in low oxygen environment.

On 6” dsb over Jaubert Plenum, 75G display plugged up with organics after 20 years. Over a period of 30 days, I siphoned out 4“ of substrate and installed pump discharge into plenum void. Instead of reduction chemistry bacteria, I use diverse micro fauna & fana with multiple nutrient pathways to recycle inorganic nutrients into organic biomass and move carbon up the food chain as live food in the microbial loop.

A big advantage of reverse flow was to prevent detritus from descending into depths of sandbed to become a nutrient sink. I prefer to promote oxidation chemistry in sandbed which favors micro fauna & fana performing nutrient recycling into organic biomass by providing multiple nutrient pathways to move live food up the food chain. When that organic biomass / nutrient sink is coral, then you can frag & sell for nutrient export.

Could the 75 have plugged up with organics because the denitrification process not efficient due to shallow depth? Was Aware of Jaubert but at the time I confused it with an UG filter lacking the understanding of what it was attempting to perform.

Why now I think the issue with denitrification in aquariums based on contact time. Jaubert attempted that by restricting flow (as I understand it) by using that plenum but what if that contact time was extended by increasing the path a specific molecule of water must travel? In waste water there are several compartments to separate aerobic from anoxic conditions with the latter supported by sludge. I'm just taking a more condensed version by capturing detritus and allowing it to decompose therefore as it reduces in size goes further down that path although with use of carbon that might not be needed.

Imagine if instead of 6 inches of DSB there was ten times that mass to travel. At some point nitrification would remove all DO and denitrification could occur.

As for adding ammonia. Why I over feed.

 

[Subsea]

Denitrification does not need to be at zero oxygen. Facultative bacteria in an oxygen rich environment will consume ammonia & nitrite molecules. Only when they are stressed with lower oxygen do these bacteria exert the necessary energy to break apart oxygen molecule in NO3 and allow free N gas molecule to enter water column. In the sand-bed, as oxygen concentration continues to drop along with pH, sulfide reducing bacteria perform anarobic digestion.

PS: Bob Goemans coined the term, NNR, natural nitrate reduction.

 

[GARRIGA]

Denitrification does not need to be at zero oxygen. Facultative bacteria in an oxygen rich environment will consume ammonia & nitrite molecules. Only when they are stressed with lower oxygen do these bacteria exert the necessary energy to break apart oxygen molecule in NO3 and allow free N gas molecule to enter water column. In the sand-bed, as oxygen concentration continues to drop along with pH, sulfide reducing bacteria perform anarobic digestion.

PS: Bob Goemans coined the term, NNR, natural nitrate reduction.

Then would a deeper sand bed produce the anaerobic digesters you mentioned reducing the final stage of decomposition through mineralization in six months. Looking for a natural way to avoid plugging vs doing a backwash.

When I try researching mineralization, it's all about farming or metal deposit on rocks. Trying to grasp that final step and not fluent on facultative bacteria. Seen it mentioned on waste water treatment articals but thought that required an infusion of oxygen after an anoxic environment and not something I can likely implement although have consider adding a venturi based on one of my designs. Might be confusing this with somewthing else. All my research indicates denitrification needed to resolve nitrates. Understanding that heterotrophic bacteria utilizing nitrates were also same utilizing sulfer but that's another area I'm weak on.

Assuming facultative function is why carbon dosing works in an oxygen rich environment (trying to connect the dots) yet also assumed detritus would also provide that carbon source. This is the rabbit hole where I get lost.

Thanks for being patient.

 

[Subsea]

“Assuming facultative function is why carbon dosing works in an oxygen rich environment (trying to connect the dots) yet also assumed detritus would also provide that carbon source. This is the rabbit hole where I get lost.”

Its a “Question of Balance”.

Carbon dosing feeds bacteria as does food and detritus. Instead of encouraging bacteria in a reducing environment, I encourage micro fauna & fana in oxygen rich environment to produce live food for hungry mouths.

As a Class V waste water plant superintendent I know much about stirring S.H.I.T.

Anarobic digestion / reducing chemistry is very slow. Oxidation chemistry is fast. Hydrogen peroxide, ozone and chlorine are strong oxidizers that react fast.

 

[GARRIGA]

Anarobic digestion / reducing chemistry is very slow. Oxidation chemistry is fast. Hydrogen peroxide, ozone and chlorine are strong oxidizers that react fast.

Focusing on anaerobic digestion, would that not reduce the mulm we speak of? Chlorine not an option, ozone I'm revisiting and hydrogen peroxide new to me but I see potential. Latter two I'm considering but are you indicating this would solve my mulm elimination obsession or am I still best designing a system that can provide an environment devoid of DO?

I'm aware there are also bacteria that function in absolute zero DO including none bound but I know little to nothing about that and it's often confusing because when terms like anaerobic and anoxic are used they are often meaning the opposite depending on one's background. Understanding being that you spending your time in waste water management the term anoxic being one where DO is less than 0.5 ppm yet bound oxygen in the form of nitrites, nitrates or sulfur exist with anaerobic meaning void of all oxygen. Is that correct? Therefore when you mention anaerobic digesters it's not clear what exact environment those prefer.

 

[Subsea]

“Focusing on anaerobic digestion, would that not reduce the mulm we speak of? Chlorine not an option, ozone I'm revisiting and hydrogen peroxide new to me but I see potential. Latter two I'm considering but are you indicating this would solve my mulm elimination obsession or am I still best designing a system that can provide an environment devoid of DO?”

YES, I think you have an “obsession to perform denitrification”. And to what PURPOSE do you fixate on it?

My corals and seaweeds consume nitrogen, so I have no need for nitrogen export thru denitrification. I use detritus to grow the microbial loop so why would I want to turn live food into inert mineral thru denitrification.

PS: In my experience, denitrification and anaerobic digesters are best used in municipal waste water treatment, along with ozone & chlorine. I choose to recycle nutrients not reduce to inert minerals.

 

[Subsea]

Been wanting to setup a seaweed refugium since the 80s. Planning a trip to the keys to collect and considering picking up some weed but now I’m intrigued by this thread and might take a different approach.

My intent was purely for nutrient control and CO2 removal but using caulerpa might make for a more attractive refugium/display system attached to main.

Perhaps a recommendation on which are fastest growing although I’ll try grabbing a few and testing it out. I’ll check out the guide you posted but anything specific you recommend I’d focus on?

Gettin back on track with original post, I consider Gracilaria HayI, Caulerpa Parvispora & Caulerpa Prolifera perfect display seaweeds that are both fast growers as well as gorgeous macros.

For a lower light display, Bortacladia is my choice.

Marine Plants in the Aquarium

macroalgae, marine plants, caulerpa, refugium substrate, marine macroalgae for sale

www.marineplantbook.com

Marine Plants in the Aquarium

macroalgae, marine plants, caulerpa, refugium substrate, marine macroalgae for sale

www.marineplantbook.com

Marine Plants in the Aquarium

macroalgae, marine plants, caulerpa, refugium substrate, marine macroalgae for sale

www.marineplantbook.com

Marine Plants in the Aquarium

macroalgae, marine plants, caulerpa, refugium substrate, marine macroalgae for sale

www.marineplantbook.com

 

[GARRIGA]

YES, I think you have an “obsession to perform denitrification”. And to what PURPOSE do you fixate on it?

My corals and seaweeds consume nitrogen, so I have no need for nitrogen export thru denitrification. I use detritus to grow the microbial loop so why would I want to turn live food into inert mineral thru denitrification.

PS: In my experience, denitrification and anaerobic digesters are best used in municipal waste water treatment, along with ozone & chlorine. I choose to recycle nutrients not reduce to inert minerals.

Focus is reduce maintenance as life, work and play have prevented my having any tank for 20 years from 1995 to 2015.

I believe that overfeeding will provide the nutrients all life forms require and understanding of decomposition being that mineralization returns calcium amongst other nutrients to the environment that would have otherwise been removed through mechanical filtration. Therefore, if I can create an environment that provides full decomposition within an acceptable time frame then that's the path I will continue.

As for waste water treatment, most of what we used and use and will use was and will likely be developed there and miniaturized to suit our needs. Most of my research based on that industry.

Sole need of macro algae now for the purpose of scrubbing the high CO2 in my home which has no cost effective solution at the moment due to where I live and my understanding of options available.

If it turns out that the final step of decomposition is not practical with what's available or due to size limitations of filtration then I will design it so that final step is captured in such a way as to allow mechanical maintenance or back-washing to resolve and avoid plugging the system.

Preference is to allow nature to solve my issues vs intervention as time not something I have much available and I will build my dream tank. Just need to understand the variable and the science at holistic enough level to resolve my needs. Digging deep into the weeds not my thing regardless of task to solve.

 

[Subsea]

Focus is reduce maintenance as life, work and play have prevented my having any tank for 20 years from 1995 to 2015.

I believe that overfeeding will provide the nutrients all life forms require and understanding of decomposition being that mineralization returns calcium amongst other nutrients to the environment that would have otherwise been removed through mechanical filtration. Therefore, if I can create an environment that provides full decomposition within an acceptable time frame then that's the path I will continue.

As for waste water treatment, most of what we used and use and will use was and will likely be developed there and miniaturized to suit our needs. Most of my research based on that industry.

Sole need of macro algae now for the purpose of scrubbing the high CO2 in my home which has no cost effective solution at the moment due to where I live and my understanding of options available.

If it turns out that the final step of decomposition is not practical with what's available or due to size limitations of filtration then I will design it so that final step is captured in such a way as to allow mechanical maintenance or back-washing to resolve and avoid plugging the system.

Preference is to allow nature to solve my issues vs intervention as time not something I have much available and I will build my dream tank. Just need to understand the variable and the science at holistic enough level to resolve my needs. Digging deep into the weeds not my thing regardless of task to solve.

All systems can be made to work. It depends on what you call work.

As a marine systems engineer, I understand the processes from a holistic point of view and a micro point of view. Your system design has a bottleneck with denitrification as the main focus. No municipal waste water treatment plant would do that. Anarobic digester are for the last of detritus to break down. Activated sludge plants in the presence of oxygen perform 99% of nutrient management

In my experiences, nutrient management in our reef tanks should be for long term stability. That’s why I suggest multiple nutrient pathways.

@Lasse has operated municipal waste water treatment for 30 years and was curator for Stockhome Aquarium in Sweden. In one of his reef tank, he operates a modified anarobic digester in which he adds skimmate to plenum in low flow up through sediments. He is a scientist and conducted experiments with PH probes. Not sure of his result. You might send him a message to discuss your goals.

 

[GARRIGA]

All systems can be made to work. It depends on what you call work.

As a marine systems engineer, I understand the processes from a holistic point of view and a micro point of view. Your system design has a bottleneck with denitrification as the main focus. No municipal waste water treatment plant would do that. Anarobic digester are for the last of detritus to break down. Activated sludge plants in the presence of oxygen perform 99% of nutrient management

In my experiences, nutrient management in our reef tanks should be for long term stability. That’s why I suggest multiple nutrient pathways.

@Lasse has operated municipal waste water treatment for 30 years and was curator for Stockhome Aquarium in Sweden. In one of his reef tank, he operates a modified anarobic digester in which he adds skimmate to plenum in low flow up through sediments. He is a scientist and conducted experiments with PH probes. Not sure of his result. You might send him a message to discuss your goals.

Spoken with Lasse and seem to be of the same mindset.

What you call the last step of denitrification what I'm attempting to solve. Just trying to understand that process. I can then determine best path forward.

I'll open a separate thread to no longer derail this one as it might be something others which to grasp. The science vs the best approach.

Thank you for your comments. Very much appreciated.