Algae/Ugly phase as part of cycle?

[AgentKooper]

Hi all, I'm a new member here and currently cycling a Fluval Evo 13.5 gallon. Most of the cycling advice I've read suggests that the tank is cycled when your tank can process 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours with no measurable ammonia or nitrites. After that, it's suggested, the tank is ready for a fish or two.

But here and there (including in reef2reef's Supreme Guide to Setting Up a Saltwater Aquarium pinned to the top of this forum) I've seen the recommendation to wait until your tank goes through the diatom/cyano/green algae phase before adding any fish.

Is it in fact preferable to let the ugly phase run its course before adding any fish? And if so, do you continue to add ammonia to feed the nitrifying bacterial? Do you do water changes? Or just leave the tank alone completely?

By way of background, I have gone through the ugly stage with a previous tank in which I added fish right after the ammonia-nitrite cycle was complete. The tank didn't succeed, probably for a variety of reasons related to my inexperience. I'm trying to be more methodical and patient this time around to maximize chances of success. If that means letting diatoms/cyano/algae run their course before adding fish, that's fine with me.

I'm sure this has been covered in other threads, but I searched and couldn't find the question framed this way.

 

[blaxsun]

Depends on what method you're using to cycle your tank. There's a fishless, fish and instant way to do this - it also depends how far into the cycle you are.

 

[LordofCinder]

Personally I add my first fish when ammonia and nitrite hit zero. No need to wait longer IMO

 

[Lavey29]

Personally I add my first fish when ammonia and nitrite hit zero. No need to wait longer IMO

I agree with this and it is also the primary way you keep your cycle going and bacteria growing too.

 

[kevgib67]

I started my tank with live rock, very little cycle. First two fish added two weeks later.

 

[AgentKooper]

Depends on what method you're using to cycle your tank. There's a fishless, fish and instant way to do this - it also depends how far into the cycle you are.

I'm doing fishless, dosing with Dr. Tim's ammonia. But my question could apply to any method (other than fish-in, I guess). I'm just 10 days in, nitrite levels rising. I guess my basic question is, is there a benefit to waiting to add livestock until after the dino/cyano/algae phase is past?

That possibility never occurred to me until I came across the reef2reef beginners setup guide, which seems to advise waiting to add livestock until six stages of cycling are complete: (1) ammonia cycle, (2) nitrite cycle, (3) nitrate cycle, (4) diatoms, (5) cyanobacteria, and (6) green/brown algae.

I hadn't seen cycling defined that broadly before. The usual definition described in most online descriptions seems to include (1) through (3) only.

 

[blaxsun]

I've always waited until at least 4-6 myself (unless insta-cycling).

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I'm doing fishless, dosing with Dr. Tim's ammonia. But my question could apply to any method (other than fish-in, I guess). I'm just 10 days in, nitrite levels rising. I guess my basic question is, is there a benefit to waiting to add livestock until after the dino/cyano/algae phase is past?

That possibility never occurred to me until I came across the reef2reef beginners setup guide, which seems to advise waiting to add livestock until six stages of cycling are complete: (1) ammonia cycle, (2) nitrite cycle, (3) nitrate cycle, (4) diatoms, (5) cyanobacteria, and (6) green/brown algae.

I hadn't seen cycling defined that broadly before. The usual definition described in most online descriptions seems to include (1) through (3) only.

No need to wait since the algae cycle can last quite a while. Adding algae eating cuc and slowly adding fish will help your tank's biome mature, and if some of the fish also like algae, even better

 

[slaag]

I kind of want to piggy back on this a bit as it relates to OPs question as well.

I also have the Fluval 13.5g tank. I did a fishless cycle, my cycle completed after about 3 weeks. I got two clowns and kept the lights off. After about 2 months (~3 weeks ago), I picked up Peppermint shrimp and 5 hermit crabs. About a week later, 1 aptasia showed up and 2 days letter it was decimated by the Peppermint Shrimp. It's been about ~3 months now and I have added two more trochus snails and 2 nassarius snails and a Royal Gramma 5 days ago.

About a week ago the dirty stage started and I have Detritus in the sands and on the rocks, but the CUC seems to be making a little bit of headway.

I decided to do a nitrate/ammonia test this morning after doing a 1.25 gallon water change yesterday. I am using the crappy API tests, because it's what I have right now (and I was ignorant when I bought them)...

Anyway, it's showing Nitrate at about 10ppm, maybe slightly more, but definitely less than 20.

Ammonia is showing at 0.5ppm.

My question is, is this "Normal" to see a bit of a spike during this phase and the given situation?

 

[brandon429]

yes, api reads .5 in about ten million current running reef tanks even with no spike. that's within the variance api reports on normal tanks. you aren't in cycling distress, it's why all your fish are alive. if in cycle distress, they'd be dead. if api indicated your tank was purple level ammonia, 10 ppm, I still wouldnt believe it in any case. we have threads like that

 

[brandon429]

also to update the thread with updated cycling science

nobody has issues with establishing ammonia control, in reefing we use ways that always set it up in a day or two max, disagreeing api test kits don't alter this truth. try digital ammonia reading kits to see the truth or just forego ammonia testing altogether owing to this rule: nobody in reefing is failing to set up ammonia control in a day or two.

fish are only safe to add once disease preps from the disease forum are ran. a new tank cycled can carry many fish, but they're not safe no matter how the tank was cycled if disease preps were skipped. they'll be dead in eight months. source for claims: see any new disease post in the proper forum, go look at their post history to see how they cycled the tank. it doesnt matter how: if they skipped preps you can see them now posting for disease help within eight months, the majority of all posts daily.

 

[AgentKooper]

also to update the thread with updated cycling science

nobody has issues with establishing ammonia control, in reefing we use ways that always set it up in a day or two max, disagreeing api test kits don't alter this truth. try digital ammonia reading kits to see the truth or just forego ammonia testing altogether owing to this rule: nobody in reefing is failing to set up ammonia control in a day or two.

fish are only safe to add once disease preps from the disease forum are ran. a new tank cycled can carry many fish, but they're not safe no matter how the tank was cycled if disease preps were skipped. they'll be dead in eight months. source for claims: see any new disease post in the proper forum, go look at their post history to see how they cycled the tank. it doesnt matter how: if they skipped preps you can see them now posting for disease help within eight months, the majority of all posts daily.

Thanks for chiming in on my thread. So, to clarify, your position is that people can safely ignore the Reef2Reef cycling guidelines in the sticky post at the top of this subforum and add fish if they've established ammonia control within a day or two of putting water in their tank? And that there's no difference in outcomes whether a tank has been cycling without livestock for two days or two months? And that the only thing that matters beyond that is quarantine procedures, the failure of which to follow will lead to all the fish dying within 8 months?

And your advice to the poster above is that he should just ignore his ammonia test and assume everything is good in his tank?

I use an API test kit, and it has consistently detected 2 ppm of ammonia after dosing 4 drops per gallon of Dr. Tim's ammonia, and has been consistently been reading zero 24 hours later. My nitrite also read zero for the first time yesterday. If my test detects ammonia in the future, I'm going to assume there's ammonia.

 

[brandon429]

Read this thread

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

non digital ammonia test kit readings make you think you aren’t cycled when indeed you are if you owned a $200 expensive seneye meter, you’d never be doubting your cycle status, since .01% of the reefing population owns these, we need a way to help the majority understand when they’re cycled...

www.reef2reef.com

let me know if we aren’t getting the results framed in jest above

state if there’s any tricks to these results at all


there is only two types of cycles that won’t carry fish same day upon setup: an unassisted dry rock cycle/feed only cycle, only one has been done on the site and this isn’t it, and the uncured ocean rock cycle where ammonia leaks from dying organisms on rock but not due to lack of bacteria, this isn’t one of those.


other than those two cycles, yes to what seems hard to believe. Right there is everyone’s reef tank using the stated method, we don’t doubt ammonia at all, it’s that simple.

 

[brandon429]

Your concern isn’t unwarranted don’t think I make those posts just to push buttons.


it must be science or luck that gets results above, everyone’s cycle is given an exact start date they can add fish just by describing the cycle. I’m watching out for folks who use uncured live rock or dry starts unassisted, as you can see they don’t above.

re aiming the concern into fish disease preps is the right mode because the only pattern in loss examples you can search and link back here for us to read are disease and hardware failure losses, not cycling ones.


be sure a differentiate failed acclimation losses from ammonia ones, in the few initial fish loss posts that do exist. I’ve already scoured every readable source online for the matter, feel free to audit and update with any pertinent links.


reef cycling uses such powerful bacterial inoculation plus already charted wait times (above/a cycling chart) that there’s no fear of what bacteria do


we can count the number of days a reef had water in it and know cycle completion, without testing, given any use of common boosters like ghost feeding and or bottled bacteria


Dr Reef has a hundred page thread studying adherence times for bottle bac, day ten covers them, we are drawing from that in our work thread.


the fear is that actual disease preps take work, time, timing, careful research and old cycling science simply can’t relay what it doesn’t know.


for example, cool trick that would contribute to research ongoing in the matter

go to google or any reef forum since inception and find a broken cycle post and link here for dissection. It’ll be a non digital test kit reading nh4 among perfectly working fish and corals


only a test kit will be the red flag, the animals will be fine. The same readings we find using api in running reefs will also constitute a broken cycle, but there won’t be any actual loss.



try to find a mere three examples on the entire web history of reefing. Ammonia concern is the sales fad of the century in reef tank cycling.

 

[Garf]

Thanks for chiming in on my thread. So, to clarify, your position is that people can safely ignore the Reef2Reef cycling guidelines in the sticky post at the top of this subforum and add fish if they've established ammonia control within a day or two of putting water in their tank? And that there's no difference in outcomes whether a tank has been cycling without livestock for two days or two months? And that the only thing that matters beyond that is quarantine procedures, the failure of which to follow will lead to all the fish dying within 8 months?

And your advice to the poster above is that he should just ignore his ammonia test and assume everything is good in his tank?

I use an API test kit, and it has consistently detected 2 ppm of ammonia after dosing 4 drops per gallon of Dr. Tim's ammonia, and has been consistently been reading zero 24 hours later. My nitrite also read zero for the first time yesterday. If my test detects ammonia in the future, I'm going to assume there's ammonia.

When there are published instructions on how to use their products or in fact stickies on the subject it would be unwise to listen to someone like Brandon, alone. There is science that indicates nitrite can be ignored in a cycle but not ammonia, from a trusted source like Randy Holmes Farley. If in doubt, don’t listen to a stranger from Tejas, wherever that is. The 8 month (made up timeline) stuff about the disease problem is possible but certainly not a given if good quality livestock can be sourced. For info, the danger posed of a total Ammonia (NH4 + NH3) reading of 0.5ppm when converted to NH3 (harmful) is totally dependant upon pH of the solution (to a lesser extent salinity and temperature). Most times a reading of 0.5 total ammonia is undesirable but not lethal as Brandon describes in his made up scare tactics / evidence posts. He should largely be ignored by new folks.

 

[AgentKooper]

Read this thread

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

non digital ammonia test kit readings make you think you aren’t cycled when indeed you are if you owned a $200 expensive seneye meter, you’d never be doubting your cycle status, since .01% of the reefing population owns these, we need a way to help the majority understand when they’re cycled...

www.reef2reef.com

let me know if we aren’t getting the results framed in jest above

state if there’s any tricks to these results at all


there is only two types of cycles that won’t carry fish same day upon setup: an unassisted dry rock cycle, only one has been done on the site and this isn’t it, and the uncured ocean rock cycle, this isn’t one.


other than those two cycles, yes to what seems hard to believe. Right there is everyone’s reef tank using the stated method, we don’t doubt ammonia at all, it’s that simple.

Thanks, I will check that thread out. I read the intro, and it occurred to me that my personal experience isn't consistent with a couple of the arguments there:

In a previous tank I attempted (and failed) to establish about 10 years ago, I added two clownfish within a couple days of adding water. I was aware of the need to cycle, but attempted to speed the process with a product that claimed to render ammonia and nitrite temporarily harmless to the fish in conjunction with water changes.

Despite following all instructions, my clownfish very quickly showed symptoms of ammonia poisoning. My ammonia test results were always concerningly high. One clown fish died. The other survived for a while, but never thrived and died sometime later. The first fish almost certainly died from ammonia poisoning. Did the second one die because the initial poisoning weakened it? Or because of a disease I didn't properly prep for? Or a combination of both? No way to know now.

My takeaway from that experience is that establishing the ammonia-nitrate cycle remains extremely important and shouldn't be rushed, regardless of claims to the contrary using various products. Awareness of disease prevention is no doubt important as well, but I'm not focused on that topic here.

I'm not sure how one is supposed to exercise caution in the cycling process without relying on test kits. I reiterate: I have every reason to believe my API ammonia test kit results have been accurate this time around. Last time around, they indicated ammonia, and my fish died. So I'll continue to take them seriously.

 

[brandon429]

You didn’t research to show links in threads we could read off google, thats done to show readers the scope of the risks being presented.

its because finding what you described isn’t easy, I can’t find any in fact.

with a first person relay, no links, we dont get to verify anything / assure that outcome isn’t customized just for this thread

did you post about that event prior?


I’ll let you cycle as you see fit. I don’t watch garfs posts nor HBE’s, but if today is like last year they’re not posting links either.

that’s one of ten threads as large where we cycle tanks in the ways stated here won’t work.

you didn’t have ammonia control issues after using bottle bac.

 

[brandon429]

As long as disease preps are given this much attention you’ll be all set.

 

[AgentKooper]

You didn’t research to show links in threads we could read off google, thats done to show readers the scope of the risks being presented.

its because finding what you described isn’t easy, I can’t find any in fact.

with a first person relay, no links, we dont get to verify anything / assure that outcome isn’t customized just for this thread

did you post about that event prior?


I’ll let you cycle as you see fit. I don’t watch garfs posts nor HBE’s, but if today is like last year they’re not posting links either.

that’s one of ten threads as large where we cycle tanks in the ways stated here won’t work.

you didn’t have ammonia control issues after using bottle bac.

What links are you talking about? You want me to do online research to document that I experienced what I experienced? I guess I don't particularly care whether anyone believes what I post -- but maybe at least I might get a little initial benefit of the doubt that I'm not going to waste my time making things up about my historical ineptitude with setting up a nano reef tank.

Not that information posted in an anonymous online forum is likely to have any scientific validity anyway, regardless of whether it's something I post a link to or something you post a link to.

 

[brandon429]

I don't mind a little effort as demo


For fifty pages above we all get along really well

the friendliness/ receptivity to findings seems to differ among threads but my info doesn't change post to post

I use searchable web links to communicate expectations

Such as this small effort coming up, I will search out a seneye cycle using bottle bac showing same day control of ammonia. This is a proof you can see, that i in a friendly/ informative way took time to search for you bc I wouldn't want you to think I'd lie to you about something in reefing.



You try and find one single example of the inverse: a seneye cycle that wasn't able to handle ammonia on day two, from a calibrated machine.


Notice how strong the urge is to refuse the provided info on how quickly ammonia control happens nowadays, even though no links can be found to support the null hypothesis?

There's ten thousand seneye cycle logs for the taking showing ammonia control by day two, so when HBE acts incredulous at a cycling rule I'm relaying I know that really doesn't come from anything you and I could read or lookup for proofing.


The only thing you and I can find to state ammonia control isn't ready by day two is a bunch of non digital cheap test kits reading the exact same levels in the questionable tank as they do in running reefs (hence the numerous ammonia alert threads that are false alarms)