Aeration: Skimmer VS Nature

[GARRIGA]

Efficiency may be the determining factor in your decision maybe? How much power are you going to throw onto the algae to get the comparable oxygen effects? You don't need a skimmer, an air pump works to an extent, even a tiny pump with an air inlet, as long as you are prepared to deal with tiny bubbles.

Understood. I’m not literally going to use a skimmer but could build something providing purely the aeration affect. Although bubbles not a problem. Sponge post solves that.

However. You’re spot on with efficiency. Pruning chaeto to me less effort then cleaning that skimmer even if ran wet. No noise, too.

 

[Pntbll687]

If a tank is below O2 saturation, as they can be at night, why would a skimmer not add O2 then?

I was thinking more along the lines of when people say a skimmer "oxygenates" the water to raise ph, when they really mean reduce co2.

I don't know of anyone monitoring O2 saturation in a tank. Is this something easily done and something you can control for? If a tank is not at saturation would a skimmer even be able to add enough oxygen from the outside air to get it to saturation?

But you are correct, that if the tank is below saturation, injecting outside air would add O2 to the water

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was thinking more along the lines of when people say a skimmer "oxygenates" the water to raise ph, when they really mean reduce co2.

I don't know of anyone monitoring O2 saturation in a tank. Is this something easily done and something you can control for? If a tank is not at saturation would a skimmer even be able to add enough oxygen from the outside air to get it to saturation?

But you are correct, that if the tank is below saturation, injecting outside air would add O2 to the water

Few people monitor O2 which is why, IMO, so many people do not value oxygenation and do things like recirculating scrubbers, eliminating the oxygenation.

Skimmer do not always bring O2 to equilibrium, just as they do not always bring CO2 to equilibrium, but they do help. Eric Borneman had a number of O2 articles and data from tanks he tested.

 

[GARRIGA]

A skimmer is going to try and bring the tank into equilibrium with the outside air, since it is injecting the outside air into the water. This will never "add" oxygen to a tank, it may however reduce co2 levels if you don't have much gas exchange. Now, if you live in a recently built house or one with good insulation, the skimmer may not have much affect on co2 levels in the tank if the room co2 is high.

A fuge can raise ph and reduce co2 when it is lit, but will add co2 when it is not lit. As far as lighting 24/7, probably ok. But a refugium is not cannabis, so I don't think the comparison is valid.

How would running a fuge 24/7 replace the need to dose alkalinity?

Unfortunately, I do live in new construction and air tight with people and pets means high co2 which would require scrubbing that entering the skimmer which is an added cost and maintenance to consider. That alone why I keep going back to solving my concerns with sea grass.

As for not being like cannabis. Yes but it still grows just fine lit 24/7. Tested that with GHA and Pom Pom. Seen others do it with chaeto. However, due to not wanting it to clog based on design I’m considering. Pom Pom likely what I’m going with and have experience lighting it 24/7. GHA too.

As for Alkalinity. Fuge will return base lost during nitrification therefore loss of alkalinity contained to consumption by inhabitants and as I understand it from Randy that is equal to the ratio of calcium added therefore regular dosing of ordered two part will solve without additions to just buffer the system. Same can be accomplish with carbon but this way I solve several concerns with one solution.

 

[GARRIGA]

You can even get fancy and have a solenoid on a co2 scrubber for the skimmer. Run the air through the scrubber when ph is below X and close the solenoid to pull outside air when above Y.

Thought about using the solenoid with the Fuge. Makes sense for the skimmer but wouldn’t the drop in pH not be a simpler approach. I’m going to have a controller and pH one of the few items constantly monitored along with ORP and temps.

 

[exnisstech]

OK, so the conclusion is that you do not feel the need for one because the tank looks great.

I cannot argue with that except to note that without trying it, you also do not know how things would do with a skimmer.

I know how they do with a skimmer I just didn't notice any difference so I pulled them.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I know how they do with a skimmer I just didn't notice any difference so I pulled them.

OK.

When I experimented without my skimmer, my pH went too high due to limewater use.

 

[Dan_P]

Randy,

I hear often how you would use a skimmer if for nothing else than aeration. However, what would I be missing were I to replace the real estate a skimmer takes with a refugium plus I can vacate the sock area and expand the refugium? Saw BRS do exactly that and based on experience that refugium captures detritus until it breaks down. Guessing nature best at it and helpers such as bristle (not fire), pods and Nassarius would help decompose that the socks would have removed and macroalgae the rest. Key would be running lights 24/7 and then turning them off when pH rises above a certain point.

I’ve run refugiums 24/7 both fresh and salt. No ill affects. From what I’ve seen. They don’t need a darkness period. Learned that from those growing pot. Those guys push the envelope and seem to have the science down since efficiency increases production and therefore profits. That or they have more to smoke. Probably both

Let nature remove co2. Add oxygen. Eliminate the need for additives to raise alkalinity and pH. Could literally seal the tank minus feed ports reducing evaporation. Win win to me but I often miss something and why I ask.

That seal isn’t permanent by the way and I’ve tested this and evaporation as expected literally zero. Glass lid solves many concerns such as an ATO that might fail.

Keep it simple. Keep it affordable. Keep it low maintenance. Gonna need to come up with new acronym for that. Obvious choice likely not the best.

Very interesting topic. Just a thought.

Maybe consider no refugium and no skimmer, for awhile any anyway. If the refugium is not for nitrate reduction, this experiment shouldn’t cost you anything. I would also measure oxygen levels. You may find both the skimmer and refugium are not doing much for you. Surface agitation in the display tank might be doing the job. I think pH could be a good way to track CO2 accumulation.

 

[GARRIGA]

Very interesting topic. Just a thought.

Maybe consider no refugium and no skimmer, for awhile any anyway. If the refugium is not for nitrate reduction, this experiment shouldn’t cost you anything. I would also measure oxygen levels. You may find both the skimmer and refugium are not doing much for you. Surface agitation in the display tank might be doing the job. I think pH could be a good way to track CO2 accumulation.

Already taken that approach. Couldn't get pH above 7.5 consistently. Running a Fuge got me to 8.1. Cause being new airtight construction in south Florida where weather and humidity prevent opening windows and people plus pets contribute to trapped co2.

This didn't change much based on surface agitation, either. Only the Fuge saw improvement and why I ask if there's something I'd be missing if relying solely on plants.

Controlling lights off pH best I can come up with although not tested but I will once controller added. Logically speaking. Does make the most sense.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This didn't change much based on surface agitation, either

Surface agitation in high CO2 air can lower pH, not raise it.

 

[GARRIGA]

Surface agitation in high CO2 air can lower pH, not raise it.

Understood. Point being I didn't see much change. Tank is an open top with a HOB filter which I believe caused most of the air exchange since I tried with a plastic sheet and still got similar results yet evaporation didn't seem changed.

Best results when less people around for an extended period. Why I'm convinced excess co2 my issue which went away once Fuge in the HOB filter added. Similarly. Best results when algae in tank allowed to grow.

 

[Dan_P]

Already taken that approach. Couldn't get pH above 7.5 consistently. Running a Fuge got me to 8.1. Cause being new airtight construction in south Florida where weather and humidity prevent opening windows and people plus pets contribute to trapped co2.

This didn't change much based on surface agitation, either. Only the Fuge saw improvement and why I ask if there's something I'd be missing if relying solely on plants.

Controlling lights off pH best I can come up with although not tested but I will once controller added. Logically speaking. Does make the most sense.

Got it. You are using photosynthesis to consume CO2 instead of a CO2 scrubber or skimming with air inlet outside with the added benefit of oxygenation. Who knows whether the refugium can deliver the same amount of oxygen as would happen inside a skimmer. Interesting engineering question.

Controlling lights to control photosynthesis to control CO2 accumulation is a neat idea. Should work as long as plants are fed consistently, right? I think cyanobacteria growth in or on the refugium. will give you a heads up that the algae are not happy.

Looking forwards to the long term results.

 

[GARRIGA]

Got it. You are using photosynthesis to consume CO2 instead of a CO2 scrubber or skimming with air inlet outside with the added benefit of oxygenation. Who knows whether the refugium can deliver the same amount of oxygen as would happen inside a skimmer. Interesting engineering question.

Controlling lights to control photosynthesis to control CO2 accumulation is a neat idea. Should work as long as plants are fed consistently, right? I think cyanobacteria growth in or on the refugium. will give you a heads up that the algae are not happy.

Looking forwards to the long term results.

Pretty much sums it up. Did run these test in fresh and based on bottoming out my alkalinity when I learned the affect of plants forced to seek co2 when not enough present in water. Same house. Same co2 congested issue yet plants bottomed that out and another reason to use pH as a governor although won't know until I create a big enough Fuge similar to what I had in fresh. at no point did my dkh fall below 9 unless nitrates allowed to run wild. Both times I overfed.

I'm still at a lost with cyano. Never had it until this test tank and it showed itself from time to time yet mostly disturbed by flow yet no clue why it showed. Wasn't always when I bottomed nitrates purposely. Still working on knowledge for that but it can wait. Next tank I'll be able to dose and add back nutrients as needed. Peculiarly, for a while saw it disappear with peroxide then reared it's ugly head when I stopped and then started retreating again although seemed to gain resistance as I was increasing peroxide beyond recommendation although that is anecdotal so who knows.

Fun part about test tanks. You can make mistakes inadvertently or on purpose and learn from them .

 

[Dan_P]

Pretty much sums it up. Did run these test in fresh and based on bottoming out my alkalinity when I learned the affect of plants forced to seek co2 when not enough present in water. Same house. Same co2 congested issue yet plants bottomed that out and another reason to use pH as a governor although won't know until I create a big enough Fuge similar to what I had in fresh. at no point did my dkh fall below 9 unless nitrates allowed to run wild. Both times I overfed.

I'm still at a lost with cyano. Never had it until this test tank and it showed itself from time to time yet mostly disturbed by flow yet no clue why it showed. Wasn't always when I bottomed nitrates purposely. Still working on knowledge for that but it can wait. Next tank I'll be able to dose and add back nutrients as needed. Peculiarly, for a while saw it disappear with peroxide then reared it's ugly head when I stopped and then started retreating again although seemed to gain resistance as I was increasing peroxide beyond recommendation although that is anecdotal so who knows.

Fun part about test tanks. You can make mistakes inadvertently or on purpose and learn from them .

Thanks for the background information.

Algae can be stressed if flow is low, the plants are crowded, light is too bright, not enough nitrate, missing trace elements, low CO2, etc. When stressed their metabolism can change and they can increase the amount of organic carbon they exude. This might directly feed cyanobacteria or maybe indirectly by feeding on exudates of heterotrophic bacteria that feed on the algae exudates. Filamentous cyanobacteria are known to partner with heterotrophic bacteria. In any case, cyanobacteria might be a useful signal for when the algae is stressed.

 

[DropBear Actual]

I’m similar to you OP. I run a 130L with a cannister filter, Cheato and surface skimmer. Would it do better with a protein skimmer and/or fuge? Absolutley. Would it do better with a sump to remove debris from the water column other than keeping it in the water flow like the canister filter? Absolutley. I do it this way because it’s a small tank, small stand, and visually, all
Inhabitants look very happy.

So while I would say ‘I don’t need them’ I guess I mean it is thriving without them, but I don’t mean it wouldn’t do better with them.

I would say if you have the space, a skimmer with a small fuge would be an option but I don’t know how much space you have.

 

[GARRIGA]

Thanks for the background information.

Algae can be stressed if flow is low, the plants are crowded, light is too bright, not enough nitrate, missing trace elements, low CO2, etc. When stressed their metabolism can change and they can increase the amount of organic carbon they exude. This might directly feed cyanobacteria or maybe indirectly by feeding on exudates of heterotrophic bacteria that feed on the algae exudates. Filamentous cyanobacteria are known to partner with heterotrophic bacteria. In any case, cyanobacteria might be a useful signal for when the algae is stressed.

That I did not know.

Obviously co2 not likely low but lights were kept at different intensities and didn't seem to change the occurrence of cyano. Nitrates bottom out to 160 ppm and above. That also didn't seem to alter the appearance of cyano. Although didn't test nitrites as I assumed those were not present but might affect those results. ChaetoGro was dosed mostly based on what I assumed but future dosing will be based off iron readings. Will say that Pom Pom and GHA looked rather healthy and grew. Especially the GHA which took over the Pom Pom.

Don't see any means I can control or break the bond between cyano and heterotrophic bacteria and honestly that's not something I'd ever think existed. Rather fascinating none the least and likely beyond my comprehension.

I've asked this before and haven't gotten an answer. Is cyano actually detrimental considering it's the first life that brought as an atmosphere and in essence does process nutrients, removes co2 and adds oxygen. As I understand it. Granted unsightly but then so is GHA yet in the grand scheme of things. Rather beneficial. If only it were purple then might be more widely accepted outside an ATS.

Did have a run with dino that I believe was the cause of wiping out my Margarita, Astrea and blue leg hermits yet my fish and Nassarius never missed a beat. Those Nassarius sit outside in a 20 Brute in 96 degree weather and nothing seems to kill them. Hoping to keep them for my next adventure.

Never saw cyano or dino in the 80/90s although my lights were much weaker and never got around to bottoming out my nitrates. No clue about phosphates then but these days that hovers around 0.25 ppm and thought that would avoid the other two but I'm as clueless with dino as I am with cyano. Other than I've figured out how to solve one but not yet the other. That being cyano and specifically the variant of dinos I experienced for which I have no clue. That's field is way beyond my area of comfort or desire to know.

Part of why I'm heavily leaning Fuge and trying to eliminate all other options such as skimmers and purpose of this thread because I'm incline to believe that having something heavily relying on a more natural approach might help solve that I don't know along with other things yet to be experienced. Plus makes for a great home to house pods of which I'm seeing others use to solve benthic dinos. Something UV AOP won't help solve.

 

[GARRIGA]

I’m similar to you OP. I run a 130L with a cannister filter, Cheato and surface skimmer. Would it do better with a protein skimmer and/or fuge? Absolutley. Would it do better with a sump to remove debris from the water column other than keeping it in the water flow like the canister filter? Absolutley. I do it this way because it’s a small tank, small stand, and visually, all
Inhabitants look very happy.

So while I would say ‘I don’t need them’ I guess I mean it is thriving without them, but I don’t mean it wouldn’t do better with them.

I would say if you have the space, a skimmer with a small fuge would be an option but I don’t know how much space you have.

Eventual build 8x4 so plenty of space yet I'd rather avoid a sump due to noise, concerns with flooding and hoping to have a closed loop system to replace the need for most if not all wave makers. Seeking simplicity not just for implementation but also for maintenance and fact no one around to clean that cup yet I'll be hearing about how it stinks. Tank will be an AIO including my QT and observation yet incorporate larger baffles to accommodate the Fuge and other items such as heaters and dosing/measurements.

This is going to sound weird but then so is much of what I do. Holly Grail is build a sealed sump with access ports such as on a reactor for access. Place the Fuge within along with substrate to capture and decompose detritus vs mechanically having to remove it. Throw macroalgae out periodically as the only form of mechanical along with some cartridge filters capturing smaller sediment before running that through UV. Been testing this for two plus years. It works. Too old to be slaving over any tank and need time to enjoy life plus not getting help from the wife. My puppy. I'll need to clean after it.

I don't knock canisters. I love them. Best way to ensure what passes gets cleaned. Reefers however prefer to call them reactors and suddenly they are great

 

[Dan_P]

I've asked this before and haven't gotten an answer. Is cyano actually detrimental considering it's the first life that brought as an atmosphere and in essence does process nutrients, removes co2 and adds oxygen. As I understand it. Granted unsightly but then so is GHA yet in the grand scheme of things. Rather beneficial. If only it were purple then might be more widely accepted outside an ATS.

I have not come across any aquarium information about cyanobacteria pertaining to it being detrimental. Algae scrubbers can actually be mostly cyanobacteria scrubbers. I suppose if it covered your coral that would be detrimental, or your snails starved because they didn’t like taste it imparted to the algae they ate.

 

[GARRIGA]

I have not come across any aquarium information about cyanobacteria pertaining to it being detrimental. Algae scrubbers can actually be mostly cyanobacteria scrubbers. I suppose if it covered your coral that would be detrimental, or your snails starved because they didn’t like taste it imparted to the algae they ate.

Yet flow can ensure it doesn't ’t cover one's corals including occasional use of a hand held powerhead or turkey baster. Latter a PITA, however. Could be one day we promote cyano like we stopped seeking zero nitrates. Hobby evolves. Just as nature did.