Advice on lanthanum chloride use

[VintageReefer]

I had uncontrollable phosphate and bought the phosban 150 reactor, and gfo, and maybe my tank is unique but it was no help. The gfo media would either solidify or it would get clumped up with crud. I was changing it out every 2-3 days and it would start with a nice tumble on top and a day or two later be solidified and wasted or clogged with detritus. I tried different brands gfo and after a few months I gave up. I know it works for others but it didn’t for me

I post this because I see a lot of people say it’s successful so maybe they have experienced this or have an explanation and can post advise on what I did wrong so op doesn’t make mistakes I made.

My reactor pump was in chamber 3 of my sump, with return pump, pulling in the cleanest water possible. I had it discharging from the reactor back into chamber 1 of the sump.

 

[crazyfishmom]

I had uncontrollable phosphate and bought the phosban 150 reactor, and gfo, and maybe my tank is unique but it was no help. The gfo media would either solidify or it would get clumped up with crud. I was changing it out every 2-3 days and it would start with a nice tumble on top and a day or two later be solidified and wasted or clogged with detritus. I tried different brands gfo and after a few months I gave up. I know it works for others but it didn’t for me

I post this because I see a lot of people say it’s successful so maybe they have experienced this or have an explanation and can post advise on what I did wrong so op doesn’t make mistakes I made.

My reactor pump was in chamber 3 of my sump, with return pump, pulling in the cleanest water possible. I had it discharging from the reactor back into chamber 1 of the sump.

Thank you for providing this perspective. It’s good hear all the different points of view. Can you please share on what helped turn your phosphate issues around?

 

[VintageReefer]

Thank you for providing this perspective. It’s good hear all the different points of view. Can you please share on what helped turn your phosphate issues around?

I installed an algae scrubber and it corrected all my phosphate issues and became the primary source of filtration, and maintains my tank at 1-2 nitrates and phosphates .02. I was able to eliminate the need for water changes, and 1.5 years ago I was able to eliminate my skimmer reducing noise in my living room, maintenance of having to empty it, and increasing food in the water column for corals. I keep the skimmer in the sump for emergencies/special situations but it’s not plugged in normally

I have a 75g tank and throughout the years I have had varying periods of low and high fish load, I bought a scrubber that can handle up to 2 cubes a day of frozen food being added to the water, which was around the amount I was feeding at a maximum when I had anthias and wrasses and a large Mono.

The scrubber is basically free to run, makes it’s own media, and once every 10-14 days I just empty it. I haven’t had to do a water change on this tank in 4 years. I just add freshwater top off mixed with All for Reef to replace trace.

My fish load is currently considered light, but the scrubber is tunable based on the number of hours the leds are on. If I want more nutrient reduction I just run it longer. Currently I’m at 16 or 17 hours a day of it running. I’ve had it up to 20 before when my fish load was higher

My build page has more info but it’s congested with welcome messages

 

[PotatoPig]

I had good success using the Tropic Marin product, using the dosing calculator here:

http://larryl.emailplus.org.user.fm/fish/dosing-instructions-phosphate-removers.html

To dose I’d put it in a bottle of RODI and siphon it in via an airline hose with an adjustable valve so it’d drip in over the course of a few hours, basically took place of the ATO when using it.

 

[crazyfishmom]

I installed an algae scrubber and it corrected all my phosphate issues and became the primary source of filtration, and maintains my tank at 1-2 nitrates and phosphates .02. I was able to eliminate the need for water changes, and 1.5 years ago I was able to eliminate my skimmer reducing noise in my living room, maintenance of having to empty it, and increasing food in the water column for corals. I keep the skimmer in the sump for emergencies/special situations but it’s not plugged in normally

I have a 75g tank and throughout the years I have had varying periods of low and high fish load, I bought a scrubber that can handle up to 2 cubes a day of frozen food being added to the water, which was around the amount I was feeding at a maximum when I had anthias and wrasses and a large Mono.

The scrubber is basically free to run, makes it’s own media, and once every 10-14 days I just empty it. I haven’t had to do a water change on this tank in 4 years. I just add freshwater top off mixed with All for Reef to replace trace.

My fish load is currently considered light, but the scrubber is tunable based on the number of hours the leds are on. If I want more nutrient reduction I just run it longer. Currently I’m at 16 or 17 hours a day of it running. I’ve had it up to 20 before when my fish load was higher

My build page has more info but it’s congested with welcome messages

Gorgeous tank. Thank you for all the wisdom. Would you be able to share a link or product name for the algae scrubber you use? I’ve felt intimated by them in general (the plumbing side of it).

 

[crazyfishmom]

I had good success using the Tropic Marin product, using the dosing calculator here:

http://larryl.emailplus.org.user.fm/fish/dosing-instructions-phosphate-removers.html

To dose I’d put it in a bottle of RODI and siphon it in via an airline hose with an adjustable valve so it’d drip in over the course of a few hours, basically took place of the ATO when using it.

Thank you for this resource. Very very helpful!

 

[Pistondog]

Gorgeous tank. Thank you for all the wisdom. Would you be able to share a link or product name for the algae scrubber you use? I’ve felt intimated by them in general (the plumbing side of it).

Looks like one of these. Just requires an air pump, hoses usually included. Plug and play

HOG2 Hang-On-Glass UAS upflow algae scrubber from Santa Monica Filtration

www.santa-monica.cc

 

[VintageReefer]

This is my scrubber, same brand different model

SURF2 floating surface UAS with ribbons and Green-Grabber surfaces - 2 cubes feeding per day

www.santa-monica.cc

 

[kenchilada]

Can you please speak a little more on this. I appreciate any advice or thoughts.

My sailfin tang is sensitive to the lanthanum dosing. I’ve seen people suggest dripping into a 25 micron sock, but that did nothing to help the tang. Neither did a 1 micron sock. Another member here confirmed lanthanum phosphate can be smaller than 1 micron. That means my sailfin tang is either irritated by lanthanum phophate or/and the unreacted lanthanum chloride that passes through the sock.

Also some LaCl simply passes through the sock unreacted and forms lanthanum phosphate in the tank anyway, so why the sock?

In my tank, the sock does nothing and I would just skip it. The manufacturer of the product I’m using (Brightwell) doesn’t even suggest this.

Another problem I’m having is the lanthanum phosphate that forms in the tank screws up phosphate test kits. The acid in the test dissolves it back into phosphate and you get a false high reading. Trying to work through that now.

Everyone seems to agree that rock binds a ton of phosphate, which I’ve always thought is true, however I’ve found it very easy to remove phosphate from my rock in a stock tank, yet I can’t get it down in my display. It’s like something else is a sink for it. Still trying to figure that out. My tank is bare bottom and clean as a whistle.

So 90% of my rock is in a tub at 0.4ppm PO4, and the other 10% of rock in my tank measures 7-10ppm! Or the test is wearing to some degree… but how wrong? Can’t tell.

In your case I would just dose a low dose to see if your fish are ok and then follow the bottle instructions, skip the sock, and when you’re stable at 0.2ppm switch to GFO.

 

[slingfox]

I used Lanthanum several times as my tank was maturing. I did a combination of tighter controls over feeding and lanthanum. The second time I used lanthanum my young yellow tang was dead by the next morning. I have used it three times since then but more carefully: I dilute it with RODI and drip the solution into a 10 micron sock with high flow from one of the outlets from my manifold for up to 24 hours. I have had no issues with this method. My phosphates eventually became stable and haven't had to resort to lanthanum for several months (tank is only at month 8 now). I believe my dry rock was leaching phosphate.

 

[slingfox]

My sailfin tang is sensitive to the lanthanum dosing. I’ve seen people suggest dripping into a 25 micron sock, but that did nothing to help the tang. Neither did a 1 micron sock. Another member here confirmed lanthanum phosphate can be smaller than 1 micron. That means my sailfin tang is either irritated by lanthanum phophate or/and the unreacted lanthanum chloride that passes through the sock.

Also some LaCl simply passes through the sock unreacted and forms lanthanum phosphate in the tank anyway, so why the sock?

In my tank, the sock does nothing and I would just skip it. The manufacturer of the product I’m using (Brightwell) doesn’t even suggest this.

Another problem I’m having is the lanthanum phosphate that forms in the tank screws up phosphate test kits. The acid in the test dissolves it back into phosphate and you get a false high reading. Trying to work through that now.

Everyone seems to agree that rock binds a ton of phosphate, which I’ve always thought is true, however I’ve found it very easy to remove phosphate from my rock in a stock tank, yet I can’t get it down in my display. It’s like something else is a sink for it. Still trying to figure that out. My tank is bare bottom and clean as a whistle.

So 90% of my rock is in a tub at 0.4ppm PO4, and the other 10% of rock in my tank measures 7-10ppm! Or the test is wearing to some degree… but how wrong? Can’t tell.

In your case I would just dose a low dose to see if your fish are ok and then follow the bottle instructions, skip the sock, and when you’re stable at 0.2ppm switch to GFO.

Dosing into a 10 micron sock with high flow from a manifold has worked great for me. I dilute Lanthanam close to 500:1 Rodi to lanthanum and IV drip slowly into the sock over the course of 24 hours or so. I did this as a preventive measure after one of my tangs died immediately after a round of lanthanum.

 

[crazyfishmom]

Oh wow… now I’m really scared to hurt my tangs with the lanthanum.

I have lots of information here. Seems to me like the safest thing to do is to get myself an algae turf scrubber and minimize any potential issues that way.

Thanks all for the great suggestions and all the wisdom. I truly appreciate everyone’s thoughts and advice.

 

[Outlaw Corals]

That is a very powerful chemical when used by itself, I’m not comfortable using it straight up. I use a product from Brightwell that has some of that stuff in it, i dose it in my overflow,

 

[kenchilada]

Dosing into a 10 micron sock with high flow from a manifold has worked great for me. I dilute Lanthanam close to 500:1 Rodi to lanthanum and IV drip slowly into the sock over the course of 24 hours or so. I did this as a preventive measure after one of my tangs died immediately after a round of lanthanum.

No ratio I’ve found has spared my sailfin from distress. Do you have a fish now That is affected by it?

Due to the size of lanthanum phosphate (at least 0.5 micron) much of it is simply passing through a 10 micron sock. I was very surprised that no combination of socks or dilution/time had any effect. He always recovers after 6-8 hours.

I’ve wondered if I put the fish in a tank with brand new 0 phosphate water, would he still be affected by the lanthanum solution. That would reveal if it’s actually the precipitate. The fact is no one knows.

 

[kenchilada]

Oh wow… now I’m really scared to hurt my tangs with the lanthanum.

I have lots of information here. Seems to me like the safest thing to do is to get myself an algae turf scrubber and minimize any potential issues that way.

Thanks all for the great suggestions and all the wisdom. I truly appreciate everyone’s thoughts and advice.

I wouldn’t be afraid to use it. Just start slow and monitor your fish to see if any are sensitive. I’ve only heard of tangs affected.

If my tang looked in trouble I would pull him out into a methylene blue bath and then into quarantine to recover, but it hasn’t reached that point.

IMO at your levels I would run GFO instead of try to become an algae farmer.

 

[slingfox]

No ratio I’ve found has spared my sailfin from distress. Do you have a fish now That is affected by it?

Due to the size of lanthanum phosphate (at least 0.5 micron) much of it is simply passing through a 10 micron sock. I was very surprised that no combination of socks or dilution/time had any effect. He always recovers after 6-8 hours.

I’ve wondered if I put the fish in a tank with brand new 0 phosphate water, would he still be affected by the lanthanum solution. That would reveal if it’s actually the precipitate. The fact is no one knows.

I have two tangs (replacement yellow tang + white tail Bristletooth tang) in my tank right now and they have been through 3 rounds of lanthanum. Neither of the tangs showed any distress using the method described. I put into 30 drops which is around 1ml into a 500ml IV bag that drips slowly into a filter sock with a stream of water from one of my manifold outlets. The hope is the slow dosing allows the lanthanum to react within the filter sock. If some escapes I hope the lanthanum reacts before it gets too deep in the display tank. I have a 143 gallon system.

I agree this stuff is powerful so best to be safe! Thankfully I have not had to dose any lanthanum for over three months on a tank that is 8 months old.

 

[steve99999]

Just dose it daily when you feed ......i use a 5mil dropper dripped into my skimmer.
I dilute 5mils into a pint of water then the daily additions.
Start with i drop per 10 gallons every day and you wont have a problem.
Dont know why people dont dose it at feedings each day the large dosing are were you get into trouble.
I have the pool stuff will last me forever...been useing it forever this way.

 

[topjimmy]

Hello all,

I have been struggling to get phosphates down in my tank. As background, I’ve been over feeding a wide variety of foods along with using polyp labs medic and UV to manage ich. I haven’t lost a single member of the fish family to ich but my blue hippo still shows a few dispersed spots every now and then so I will continue dosing Medic until she’s been spot free for at least 10 days. It may be snake oil, I do not know. I have read all the posts both positive and negative, quarantined prior to adding may new fish and still ich managed to break through. At any rate, I respect people’s thoughts on quarantine but moving forward I will be going through observational quarantine only to make sure something more nefarious than ich does not go into my DTs but will be managing ich otherwise.

Given the overfeeding, my phosphate levels have been trending up and despite using GFO I am not making a dent. They used to sit between 0.08-0.2 which I was perfectly happy with in my tank to now being at 0.7 which doesn’t seem to be bothering most of my corals but I do have a few acro frags that were coloring up nicely that have started to brown so I want to address it. I carbon dose; have been using elimi NP (was using bacto balance before when everything was where I wanted it to be).

I have been reading and reading and, you guessed it, reading some more and there are so many options that I am just utterly overwhelmed. I am considering using low doses of lanthanum chloride over the course of several days to bring down the phosphate levels to around 0.1-0.2 and then hoping to maintain them there since I think this would be more manageable.

Any experience using lanthanum chloride? How did you do it? How did your corals do? What kind of water volume were you treating? How did you approach it all?

Thanks for any thoughts/wisdom. Also if you have any recommendations on long term phosphate management please drop them in the comments as well. I must confess my brain is starting to go into shut down mode on this. My nitrates are at 18 so not worried there (I target 10-20 for nitrates usually staying around 16-19) but will watch them closely since I know that phosphate drops can impact nitrate levels as well.

I had PO4 above 2. I bought a bottle of seaklear, mixed 5ml into 500 ml of rodi and dosed 10ml a day into the overflow with a 5 micron sock in place. Took me awhile to get it down and I am still working on it. Almost done with the first 500ml and I'm at about .3 . It rebounds because of PO4 that is on the rock and sand. I have quite a few fish, including a Tang, lots of BTA and none ever showed signs of stress, though I don't think I ever had any free LC or it's precipitate floating in the display.

 

[crazyfishmom]

Okay so after a lot of thinking and reading and getting excellent thoughts and advice from the group I decided to try my old media reactor from my decommissioned 115 gallon system. I had forgotten that this one can go hanging on the side of the sump on the outside which was a must. Tested my PO4 twice yesterday and it was at above 0.9 so the Hanna kept angrily flashing at me.

I was always worried to let the GFP just tumble in it and in the past had used it for carbon and had a couple of frags RTN after having it come on line essentially overnight so I had discontinued use.

Washed the GFP a heck of a lot and added 3.5 cups to the media reactor per the BRS calculator for my water volume. This was yesterday afternoon. This morning my phosphate is 0.21 so a major drop. No wonder people strip their systems. This thing works too well.

I am letting it run one more hour to get it down to around .1 and turning the reactor off. Will likely be monitoring closely and running for short time periods as needed.

I had to pay a ridiculous amount in taxes this year so I will hold off for a few weeks before buying a floating algae scrubber. I definitely think it’ll fit better with my form of reefing which is less chemical friendly.

Thanks everyone for all the amazing advice. In particular @VintageReefer who was kind enough to reach out and help me think about how to select the right turf scrubber that would work for my system.