Acropora growth & color, nutrient levels & stability, carbon dosing & bacteria method

[RelaxingWithTheReef]

Many people of all ability levels appear to struggle at one time or another with Acropora issues. It seems like poor color, poor growth, bleaching, browning, burnt tips, and even STN / RTN events are quite common not only with newbie, but also with the “pros”.

When the basics of Acro care (lighting, flow, alkalinity, Ca, Mg, pests, coral nutrition, etc.) are properly addressed and there’s a problem, it seems like many of these problems can be traced to issues with nitrate and phosphate nutrient levels, and more importantly nutrient level stability. While Acropora can adapt to a wide variety of nutrient levels, they tend to be very intolerant to rapidly changing nutrient levels. It’s been my experience that good color requires rock steady nutrient levels, and the absolute values within reason are far less important.

The interesting thing with a bacteria driven method like ZeoVit is the levels of measurable nitrate and phosphate become essentially irrelevant as they measure around 0,0 with common test kits.

When algae (ATS, Chaeto, etc) is used for export, N and P levels must be actively managed to maintain coral and Chaeto health, and prolonged measured levels of P=0 or N=0 (or even abrupt changes) can result in coral and Chaeto problems or even death. I have found that achieving stability with the algae method can be completely natural for some tanks, and very difficult and frustrating for other tanks.

Question – Is there an inherent overall advantage (Acropora health, stability, ease of use, etc.) using a carbon / bacteria method? Is it reasonable or advantageous to use a less aggressive carbon / bacteria method such that N and P levels are measurably higher than 0,0.

 

[Naturalreef]

What I have witnessed, is with new technologies such as Rollermat, dc skimmers, bacteria etc is it has been difficult to keep stable nutrients. I have had to dose No3 and Po4 on a dosing pump and using automated testing equipment to make sure my nutrients never tanked.


The days of testing nitrate and phosphate once a week didn’t suffice for my tanks. I was listening to a frag garage podcast with Lou ekus talking about carbon dosing using Tropic Marin plus np and Bactobalance. I decided to give it a try on my new tank and I’m sold.

I started with Plus np to get my numbers up and now maintain them with Bactobalance on a dosing pump. I still check weekly and may have to go back to plus np every now and then for a few days, but overall my tank has been easier to manage. I’m seeing better growth and color since using Tropic Marin.

Side benefits of the carbon dosing were, ultra white sand, eliminated Dino’s and the carbon dosing doesn’t feed unwanted algae. 1000 ml of Bactobalance on a 50 gallon will last 3 years. I was going through a lot of Brightwell mainly feeding the bad algae. Ymmv

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The interesting thing with a bacteria driven method like ZeoVit is the levels of measurable nitrate and phosphate become essentially irrelevant as they measure around 0,0 with common test kits.

I don't necessarily agree with that characterization that it has anything directly to do with bacteria.

The need for detectable N and P has to do with how much of other forms are available to organisms, whether these are amino acids or other dissolved organic compounds, ammonia, particulates (including but not limited to plankton such as bacteria), etc.

 

[RelaxingWithTheReef]

I don't necessarily agree with that characterization that it has anything directly to do with bacteria.

The need for detectable N and P has to do with how much of other forms are available to organisms, whether these are amino acids or other dissolved organic compounds, ammonia, particulates (including but not limited to plankton such as bacteria), etc.

Very interesting. I see that many of the carbon based systems also work in conjunction with their supplements like amino acids, vitamins, etc.

Do you think higher availability of these other forms reduces the sensitivity of coral to changes in nitrate and phosphate levels when they are non-zero (measurable with hobby kits)?

If one chooses to dose vinegar, at one point does the alkalinity contribution of the acetate cause an ionic imbalance over time when used with a two-part like ESV B-ionic designed to maintain the balance.

Thank you Randy

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Very interesting. I see that many of the carbon based systems also work in conjunction with their supplements like amino acids, vitamins, etc.

Do you think higher availability of these other forms reduces the sensitivity of coral to changes in nitrate and phosphate levels when they are non-zero (measurable with hobby kits)?

If one chooses to dose vinegar, at one point does the alkalinity contribution of the acetate cause an ionic imbalance over time when used with a two-part like ESV B-ionic designed to maintain the balance.

Thank you Randy

If you are dosing other forms of N or P, then nitrate and phosphate may be much lower and still be fine, as they naturally are in the ocean.

Amino acids, for example, are a suitable source of N for many organisms.

If you dose vinegar (acetic acid), there is no net addition or depletion of alkalinity. The acetic acid adds H+ and acetate, which exactly offset in alk effects. if you dose acetate alone (as, say, sodium acetate), alkalinity will rise.

 

[Doctorgori]

just following as I’ve never completely grasped any of the bacteria stuff, or nitrate dosing….
Anyway, @RelaxingWithTheReef
you suggesting there is somehow a difference between “0” nitrates from bacterial control vs chemical?

 

[RelaxingWithTheReef]

I’m not sure what you mean by chemical. When it comes to caring for Acropora, I’m trying to understand if dosing carbon and supplements like amino acids and/or vinegar has an advantage over a system that relies on just fish food, possible a refugium or ATS, and maybe the dosing of nitrate and/or phosphate to function. I am also wondering if such a system relaxes the requirement to strictly maintain steady levels of nitrate and phosphate as many of these systems run at very low levels of measurable nitrate and phosphate. Many people including @Naturalreef from a previous post, and myself struggle to maintain steady nutrient levels.

Abe from Coral Euphoria recently had some coral nutrition issues that no amount of feeding or nitrate dosing could resolve. Vinegar and ammonia dosing seemingly resolved his issue.


This is not the first time I have seen a system where you feed a lot, have reasonable N and P levels, but the Acropora look starved. It’s almost like some systems, especially newer systems, just get “stuck”.

Is it possible some tanks have better “decomposers” to process the food and waste into available nutrients for corals?

“Decomposers are also a part of the food web. All living organisms take up and use nutrients. They can be thought of as living nutrient warehouses. Decomposers break down dead organic materials and release nutrients into the soil or water. These nutrients continue the cycle as producers use them to grow. The major decomposers are bacteria and fungi. Decomposers may even become food themselves when they are attached to a piece of detritus that is eaten.”
https://www.education.txst.edu/ci/faculty/dickinson/PBI/PBISpring05/Lake/Content/Decomposition.htm

The question then becomes, are we typically carbon limiting our tanks, and not putting enough emphasis on developing a healthy bacteria and decomposer system? Will embracing a healthy bacteria and decomposer system by carbon dosing improve tank stability, and make the corals less sensitive to changes in measurable N and P?

Taking it a step further as Randy points out, maybe it’s more important than most people realize to embrace other forms of coral nutrients “whether these are amino acids or other dissolved organic compounds, ammonia, particulates (including but not limited to plankton such as bacteria), etc.”

Thoughts?

 

[twentyleagues]

@SunnyX runs a bacteria driven system and to me his tanks look great with healthy corals. So its definitely a thing.

One year of Bacteria Powered Growth

One year of growth. Aquarium details here: https://www.reef2reef.com/showcase/reefsite-rimless-reef-4-0.464/ I post video's daily on Instagram (@Reefsite), and have multiple threads here on R2R detailing my methods. Any questions....let me know! :) -Sonny What I dose

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m not sure what you mean by chemical. When it comes to caring for Acropora, I’m trying to understand if dosing carbon and supplements like amino acids and/or vinegar has an advantage over a system that relies on just fish food, possible a refugium or ATS, and maybe the dosing of nitrate and/or phosphate to function. I am also wondering if such a system relaxes the requirement to strictly maintain steady levels of nitrate and phosphate as many of these systems run at very low levels of measurable nitrate and phosphate. Many people including @Naturalreef from a previous post, and myself struggle to maintain steady nutrient levels.

Abe from Coral Euphoria recently had some coral nutrition issues that no amount of feeding or nitrate dosing could resolve. Vinegar and ammonia dosing seemingly resolved his issue.


This is not the first time I have seen a system where you feed a lot, have reasonable N and P levels, but the Acropora look starved. It’s almost like some systems, especially newer systems, just get “stuck”.

Is it possible some tanks have better “decomposers” to process the food and waste into available nutrients for corals?

“Decomposers are also a part of the food web. All living organisms take up and use nutrients. They can be thought of as living nutrient warehouses. Decomposers break down dead organic materials and release nutrients into the soil or water. These nutrients continue the cycle as producers use them to grow. The major decomposers are bacteria and fungi. Decomposers may even become food themselves when they are attached to a piece of detritus that is eaten.”
https://www.education.txst.edu/ci/faculty/dickinson/PBI/PBISpring05/Lake/Content/Decomposition.htm

The question then becomes, are we typically carbon limiting our tanks, and not putting enough emphasis on developing a healthy bacteria and decomposer system? Will embracing a healthy bacteria and decomposer system by carbon dosing improve tank stability, and make the corals less sensitive to changes in measurable N and P?

Taking it a step further as Randy points out, maybe it’s more important than most people realize to embrace other forms of coral nutrients “whether these are amino acids or other dissolved organic compounds, ammonia, particulates (including but not limited to plankton such as bacteria), etc.”

Thoughts?

In the ocean, corals can use a variety of sources of N and P. Do we provide those in adequate supply? Likely not always.

Some folks think that ammonia, for example, is a "better" source of N than nitrate, and it is certainly true that organisms need to spend energy to convert the nitrate back into ammonia before using it. I give some ammonia dosing recipes for that reason.

Some folks (especially those preferring low nutrient systems, including zeovit systems) use other sources of N than nitrate or ammonia. Those include particulates such as bacteria and amino acids.

Some folks directly food phytoplankton or bacteria to provide N and P and energy to corals.

Some folks generate bacteria in situ by organic carbon dosing for a variety of reasons, but it may also tend to support filter feeding organisms including corals, sponges, etc.

IMO, all reef tanks are organic carbon limited for bacteria growth (unless N, P or some trace element is excessively low). The ocean is certainly organic carbon limited for bacteria growth.

Some dosed organics can be directly taken up by some (maybe all) corals. The acetate in vinegar is an example.