Acro help!

[greg0385]

I need with my acros, i cant figure out why they wont grow. My zoas and acans grow decent but my not my high end collector's acro.

Background info:
-I have a 150 gallon tall with a 75 gallon sump. Its been up and running nearly 2 years(Feburary). I started adding acros about a year ago and have quite a collection now(40+). The issue is that none of my acros are growing nor encrusting at the rate i hear everyone say their's do.

-March 2013- I switched from 2-250watt phoneix 14 MH to 90 3-watt bridgelux full spectrum dimmable leds 6 channels (blue, royal blue, UV/violet) 100%, (6500,10k, red/pink, green/cyan) at 60-70%
4-48" ati t5s(b+,p+,c+ b+).
Leds 10am-8pm,
t5- 10:30am-7:30pm.

-I now have the par that i was lacking when i had MH and now i have decent color, just no growth!

-I think i have enough fish
Blue tang, yellow tang, 4 lyretail anthia, 4 blue eye cardinal, 3 fire fish (fed 3x a day, flakes, pellets, freeze dried cyclops via autofeeder).
-Corals are fed every sunday and wednesday (reef roids, oyster feast, reef chilli, frozen roti,10ml amino) acid
-cuc are about 150 narius, 150 cerith, long spine urchin, 3 turbo snails, serpent starfish.

-flow is 1800 gph return pump, wp40, hydor 4. I have another wp40 order from a groupbuy to add more flow.
- i use red sea salt i do 20-30 w/c each month
I running out of test kits and have order more but here are my recent params
500ml eco bak biopellets
Salinty-35ppt(refract)
Ph-8.25(day),8.0(nite) cheato on reverse light schedule.
Cal-420-440(salifert)
Alk-8.4dkh(hanna)**
Mag-1350(salifert)
Phos- .04(hanna)
Temp- 78.2F
** i have kept a log book since july 17 2013 of all my testing as thats when i started dosing kalk(mrs wages) into my ATO. The weird thing was i was only putting 1tsp of kalk in 4 gallons of rodi water. That was keep my alk/cal pretty steady from test to test (7.6-8.2dkh)
I couldnt get much more steadier than this so Sept 1 2013, i swap to brs 1.1 ml dosers for 2part.
I made a bad mistake of not really knowing my exact alk demand. I started up my dosers at 10ml per day(1ml per hour for 10hours(cal day time, alk at nite). Within 2 days of dosing my alk jumped from 8.0 to 8.7! So i stopped my dosing and watch my alk very slowly dropped naturally .03/.04 dkh a day.
On Sept 23 2013 i test alk at 8.1dkh so i turned on the doser again, but this time at 1ml per day(brs says i 3.2ml dosed of 2part).
I tested on the 25th and it was 8.6!!
I do believe it was bad testing as it my last two test reagent for my hanna and so it had all kinds of floating debris in the test vials.

Im sorry to write so much, i hope i didnt put anybody to sleep. Just trying to give all details so someone can help me.

Here is a slide show of my tank 2days ago from my underwater camera. The color is a little off as i turned the leds off to take the pics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJn4lPsbxkc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Test logs: sorry they are sideways

FTS

If i am missing any other info(which im sure i am) then please me know and i will do my best to get that info for you.

Thanks in advance for all the help from the best reef forum!

Thanks
Greg
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[.AcroKiller.]

Try out 400 watt halide and see how that works for you

 

[greg0385]

Try out 400 watt halide and see how that works for you

At this time i rather not go back to MH, but if worse comes to worse then i would
Thanks

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[poolkeeper1]

Have you tested the Par of your lights ? Or are you just assuming you have enough ? If you have changed anything since i was at your house and think you should have seen growth i personally don't think enough time has passed to see much growth. SPS takes time to recover from not having ideal conditions and in general grow slow, As the saying goes nothing good comes fast in this hobby. JMO
Bill

 

[bct15]

Your new led lights do not make more par than your 250w mh, so your assumption that you are somehow acquiring more par is incorrect.

What are your phosphate levels?

 

[greg0385]

Have you tested the Par of your lights ? Or are you just assuming you have enough ? If you have changed anything since i was at your house and think you should have seen growth i personally don't think enough time has passed to see much growth. SPS takes time to recover from not having ideal conditions and in general grow slow, As the saying goes nothing good comes fast in this hobby. JMO
Bill

I used the club's par meter twice now to check the light levels.
-1st during setup of the leds(par at 325 on top scape)
-2nd about a month ago to bump it up to about 400.( i seen a increase in polyp extension in the pink lemonade after doing this and some new growth shoots off the base. They are growing very slowly.

I get that acros take time and paitence is required when dealing with them, but to read people's post stating they have new frags cover a frag plug in a month and i cant get mine to do that in a year is a little frustrating.

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[dwilliams87]

Your new led lights do not make more par than your 250w mh, so your assumption that you are somehow acquiring more par is incorrect.

What are your phosphate levels?

I can assure you, the LED's are providing more par than his MH's were. He can get about 300 more par now than he ever got with his halides. We have used a par meter to verify.

 

[p woodard]

Like Bill said it takes time I have some that I have that I have had for about 2 years and are just now starting to do something so just let them be when they start growing they will take off

 

[greg0385]

My led build with par levels
https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111421

The tank is 31" tall and the rock scape is only 15-16" tall.
The 2-250watt MH with 4 t5s par was around 225 on top of the scape.
I even tested the par of MH seperate from the T5s
Par levels on top of scape
MH only-125
T5 only-100
MH/T5-200-225

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[bct15]

I don't know what kind of reflectors bulbs and ballasts you are using but I get 250 PAR in my sandbed with 250w mh and 650-700 PAR at the top of my rockscape. I've measured the PAR several led setups with even more LEDs than yours and have never found an led setup they makes more PAR than halide setups that I have measured. It shouldn't take you a year to have an acro frag encrust a frag plug, should take two weeks to a month at most in proper conditions. I suspect somebody didn't use the par meter correctly if your t5s were measuring as much par as the metal halides.

Could you please answer the question I asked you earlier, what is your phosphate levels?

Edit: 150-200 PAR is ideal for low light acros.

 

[p woodard]

I don't know what kind of reflectors bulbs and ballasts you are using but I get 250 PAR in my sandbed with 250w mh and 650-700 PAR at the top of my rockscape. I've measured the PAR several led setups with even more LEDs than yours and have never found an led setup they makes more PAR than halide setups that I have measured. It shouldn't take you a year to have an acro frag encrust a frag plug, should take two weeks to a month at most in proper conditions.

Could you please answer the question I asked you earlier, what is your phosphate levels?

Edit: 150-200 PAR is ideal for low light acros.

Man there are some sps corals that will never cover a frag plug

 

[greg0385]

I don't know what kind of reflectors bulbs and ballasts you are using but I get 250 PAR in my sandbed with 250w mh and 650-700 PAR at the top of my rockscape. I've measured the PAR several led setups with even more LEDs than yours and have never found an led setup they makes more PAR than halide setups that I have measured. It shouldn't take you a year to have an acro frag encrust a frag plug, should take two weeks to a month at most in proper conditions. I suspect somebody didn't use the par meter correctly if your t5s were measuring as much par as the metal halides.

Could you please answer the question I asked you earlier, what is your phosphate levels?

Edit: 150-200 PAR is ideal for low light acros.

They were hamilton star slim pendants. With DE phoenix 14k bulbs They are gone/sold otherwise i take a pic of the reflectors and would borrow the par meter again to show the reading.

Remember there is 16" of water above my scape so yes on a standard 18" tall tank i would have had extreme par readings. But as i said eariler, my tank is 31" tall and the scape is only 15-16" tall.
If your local then by all means grab the par meter and stop by and show me how i used it wrong as i was thinking it was just turn it on and put the sensor where you wanted to take a reading.

Im out of phosphate reagent for the hanna but my last reading was .04

Thanks
Greg
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[poolkeeper1]

When you used the par meter did you have it set on SUN ? If not the results you got are wrong! Go to Apogees web site and look at what they say to measure Led's JMO
Bill

 

[greg0385]

When you used the par meter did you have it set on SUN ? If not the results you got are wrong! Go to Apogees web site and look at what they say to measure Led's JMO
Bill

Bill i cant honestly say if it was, i think it was but not sure. Maybe i need to get back in line for the meter to verify this.

Thanks guys for all the suggestions

Keep them coming and i promise to give frags away at prices that are beyond your wildest imagination once things take off

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[bct15]

They were hamilton star slim pendants. With DE phoenix 14k bulbs They are gone/sold otherwise i take a pic of the reflectors and would borrow the par meter again to show the reading.

Remember there is 16" of water above my scape so yes on a standard 18" tall tank i would have had extreme par readings. But as i said eariler, my tank is 31" tall and the scape is only 15-16" tall.
If your local then by all means grab the par meter and stop by and show me how i used it wrong as i was thinking it was just turn it on and put the sensor where you wanted to take a reading.

Im out of phosphate reagent for the hanna but my last reading was .04

Thanks
Greg
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My tank is 28" deep with the top of my rocks 12" from the surface. I can't see 4 inches making a 500 PAR difference. Plus at the bottom (28 inches below water surface) I'm getting more PAR than you were measuring at 16 inches from the surface. Something was not done correctly or your ballasts were greatly underperforming. Also, your t5s and mh readings are almost identical...unless you are running a whole bunch of t5s that should not be the case. And t5s do not penetrate nearly as deep as MHs.

Things that inhibit growth of acros are,
To little light
To much light
High phosphates
Pests
Off magnesium

 

[.AcroKiller.]

Par meters do not measure leds accurate. I don't think the LEDs are causing your slow growth they both grow coral but the difference is in the colors and the growth pattern I notice that my sps under 400 watt halide with lumens bright reflectors have a more natural growth pattern and are way more colorful that on led tanks but on the growth lets be real they both grow corals. Greg I think your problem is something else maybe parameter stability. How often you do water changes

 

[greg0385]

Par meters do not measure leds accurate. I don't think the LEDs are causing your slow growth they both grow coral but the difference is in the colors and the growth pattern I notice that my sps under 400 watt halide with lumens bright reflectors have a more natural growth pattern and are way more colorful that on led tanks but on the growth lets be real they both grow corals. Greg I think your problem is something else maybe parameter stability. How often you do water changes

Once a month- 20-30 gallons. Im thinking about going back to 5 gallons a week instead of once a month.

I do have a plan to narrow down some potential issues.
1) change rodi filters
2)change t5 bulbs
3) dial in the dosers to that sweet spot for my tank's demand
4) adding a wp40 for more flow

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[.AcroKiller.]

Well the reason I ask was cause that might be the reason doing to many water changes or to big of a changes

 

[greg0385]

I will be honest i havent done a W/C this month. Im starting to let the tank do its thing.
The pellets are keeping my phos and trates in check.
Im working toward keeping my alk/cal/mag at the right levels.
I was cleaning the glass every couple of days, but now with the chaeato growing like crazy and the pellets are doing great. I now clean the glass every sunday and its barely dirty.

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[pickupman66]

Man. In hate mysteries like this. Wish I could offer advice on it but I'd say skip a month of water changes and see what happens. What have you got to lose?

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