A Seagrass and Deep Sand Bed Theory...

[Greatreefer]

This is a freshwater tank, with freshwater plants. If you want to trade some saltwater macro for my freshwater plants I’d be open to it, but i want to make sure we understand each other lol.

I dont know if ive ever even concidered trying this. In the wild, are these plants found in brackish water or just fresh water?

 

[Uzidaisies]

I dont know if ive ever even concidered trying this. In the wild, are these plants found in brackish water or just fresh water?

I’ve read that some Vallisneria can grow in lower end brackish water. I have a little one and a half gallon FW tank with just a few plants in it. Ive been thinking about slowly making it saltier and saltier and seeing what happens.

 

[Subsea]

This is a freshwater tank, with freshwater plants. If you want to trade some saltwater macro for my freshwater plants I’d be open to it, but i want to make sure we understand each other lol.

I no longer have fresh water tanks. However, because I like plants, I moved on to ornamental seaweed mixed garden lagoons. My comment was to keep thread lively.

I do have > 2000G of hardy lilly ponds Outdoors.

Below pictures are 55G six month mature ornamental seaweed lagoon that is skimmerless & sumpless.

Biofiltration is accomplished with two cannister filters running as high flow cryptic refugium and in tank reverse flow UG filter with 2” of diver collected live sand.

 

[GHOSTLY]

Its unique. Try it!

 

[WheatToast]

“Plus, DSB’s support their own unique organisms and aesthetics that other setups could not.”

MAYBE TRUE. I assure you, it’s not so simple.

In my experiences with 20 years of maintaining deep sand beds, I saw no real biodiversity in the anoxic sections, mostly reducing bacteria like denitrification or sulfide reducing.

Oh, sorry, there are some things I need to clarify:
When I mention organisms, I am also referring to bacteria and other minuscule and unseen life and I never said the supported life was limited to the anoxic sections (think seagrass ). However, I agree that the lower reaches of DSB’s are not particularly the most visually active regions of the aquarium (though that does not stop me from enjoying the one I have).

Sorry for dragging this on quite a bit. I just wanted to explain any loose ends.

Initially, mud macro section had 1/2“ of miracle mud 25 yrs ago. Over the yrs, detritus increased depth to 1” that feels spongy to the touch.

That’s insane! You must be pretty proud of that mud bed!

Anyone know if eelgrass ( Zostera) will stay alive at reef temps? I'm allowed to collect uprooted seagrass at or above the high tide mark. I want to try this but dont know if any of my native seagrasses would stay alive

If I remember correctly, Zostera marina dies back, during the warmer months, throughout the warmers parts of its distribution. I have also read that it prefers temperatures between 50-68 °F (10-20 °C) and dies above 77°F (25°C ). I hope this helps.

 

[Subsea]

With respect to mud filter, I initially bought Miracle Mud. 25 years ago. After much research, there is no Miracle Mud. The fine grain size provides a matrix for micro inverts which is the miracle in the mud: biodiversity.

Iron is a major mineral in miracle mud. So, instead of replacing mud, I added Seachem Iron substrate. I also dose iron and ChaetoGrow and do water changes once a year, if I need it.

let’s talk about detritus & MULM

"Mulm" in a reef tank

I think one of the most important, and least understood or mentioned things in a reef tank is "mulm". That stuff that grows in the dark portions of a tank if it is set up long enough. "Mulm" is a combination of algae, sponges, bacteria, pods, worms, detritus, poop and any thing else that can be p...

wamas.org

I think one of the most important, and least understood or mentioned things in a reef tank is "mulm". That stuff that grows in the dark portions of a tank if it is set up long enough. "Mulm" is a combination of algae, sponges, bacteria, pods, worms, detritus, poop and any thing else that can be propagated or grown in the dark. I realize most people would immediately get out the sponge, razor blade or grenade to remove it but there is a word I like to use to describe those people. That word is "wrong". Mulm is a natural product that you will find in the sea all over the world. Our tanks run on bacteria, algae and a food chain. Bacteria and a food chain are dependent on having a place to reproduce. Mulm is the perfect place. Rocks and glass are flat surfaces that are only two dimensional. Mulm makes these places three dimensional allowing much more space for bacteria and microscopic organisms to grow and do the macarana. (Then love to dance) Pods, which are needed for any small fish also need to eat and their numbers are directly related to how much food they can get their hands on (or whatever pods use to eat with) The more food, the more pods, the more pods, the easier to keep smaller fish. Larger fish such as copperbands and angels also eat pods.
Many people try to keep fish such as pipefish, mandarins or other dragonettes in a sterile tank and while feeding them a couple of times a day with tiger pods or some other expensive food. Those types of fish will not live for long in such a tank and they certainly won't spawn which I consider the "only" criteria to determine the state of health for any paired fish.
Mulm (after a while, maybe a few years) should grow on the back and sides of glass as well as under rocks.
Here in this picture of my clingfish, the mulm appears green. It is really brownish and that fish is on the side of my tank. I brightened up the picture and turned it sideways because it was in the dark and the fish was hard to see.
There is a thick layer of it on the back of my tank where my mandarins and pipefish like to hunt. My long spined urchin also grazes there most of the time as there is not much algae in my tank for him to eat. He is many years old as are the mandarins and pipefish and they are dependent on this food source.
A sterile tank IMO is the biggest problem we have keeping certain fish healthy.
Sterile is good in an operating room but very bad in a tank.

 

[WheatToast]

With respect to mud filter, I initially bought Miracle Mud. 25 years ago. After much research, there is no Miracle Mud. The fine grain size provides a matrix for micro inverts which is the miracle in the mud: biodiversity.

Iron is a major mineral in miracle mud. So, instead of replacing mud, I added Seachem Iron substrate. I also dose iron and ChaetoGrow and do water changes once a year, if I need it.

let’s talk about detritus & MULM

"Mulm" in a reef tank

I think one of the most important, and least understood or mentioned things in a reef tank is "mulm". That stuff that grows in the dark portions of a tank if it is set up long enough. "Mulm" is a combination of algae, sponges, bacteria, pods, worms, detritus, poop and any thing else that can be p...

wamas.org

I think one of the most important, and least understood or mentioned things in a reef tank is "mulm". That stuff that grows in the dark portions of a tank if it is set up long enough. "Mulm" is a combination of algae, sponges, bacteria, pods, worms, detritus, poop and any thing else that can be propagated or grown in the dark. I realize most people would immediately get out the sponge, razor blade or grenade to remove it but there is a word I like to use to describe those people. That word is "wrong". Mulm is a natural product that you will find in the sea all over the world. Our tanks run on bacteria, algae and a food chain. Bacteria and a food chain are dependent on having a place to reproduce. Mulm is the perfect place. Rocks and glass are flat surfaces that are only two dimensional. Mulm makes these places three dimensional allowing much more space for bacteria and microscopic organisms to grow and do the macarana. (Then love to dance) Pods, which are needed for any small fish also need to eat and their numbers are directly related to how much food they can get their hands on (or whatever pods use to eat with) The more food, the more pods, the more pods, the easier to keep smaller fish. Larger fish such as copperbands and angels also eat pods.
Many people try to keep fish such as pipefish, mandarins or other dragonettes in a sterile tank and while feeding them a couple of times a day with tiger pods or some other expensive food. Those types of fish will not live for long in such a tank and they certainly won't spawn which I consider the "only" criteria to determine the state of health for any paired fish.
Mulm (after a while, maybe a few years) should grow on the back and sides of glass as well as under rocks.
Here in this picture of my clingfish, the mulm appears green. It is really brownish and that fish is on the side of my tank. I brightened up the picture and turned it sideways because it was in the dark and the fish was hard to see.
There is a thick layer of it on the back of my tank where my mandarins and pipefish like to hunt. My long spined urchin also grazes there most of the time as there is not much algae in my tank for him to eat. He is many years old as are the mandarins and pipefish and they are dependent on this food source.
A sterile tank IMO is the biggest problem we have keeping certain fish healthy.
Sterile is good in an operating room but very bad in a tank.

Phenomenal read! You should write a Reef2Reef article about this!

P.S. I am not seeing the picture of the clingfish you mentioned. Curious to know what it looks like.

 

[Greatreefer]

With respect to mud filter, I initially bought Miracle Mud. 25 years ago. After much research, there is no Miracle Mud. The fine grain size provides a matrix for micro inverts which is the miracle in the mud: biodiversity.

Iron is a major mineral in miracle mud. So, instead of replacing mud, I added Seachem Iron substrate. I also dose iron and ChaetoGrow and do water changes once a year, if I need it.

let’s talk about detritus & MULM

"Mulm" in a reef tank

I think one of the most important, and least understood or mentioned things in a reef tank is "mulm". That stuff that grows in the dark portions of a tank if it is set up long enough. "Mulm" is a combination of algae, sponges, bacteria, pods, worms, detritus, poop and any thing else that can be p...

wamas.org

I think one of the most important, and least understood or mentioned things in a reef tank is "mulm". That stuff that grows in the dark portions of a tank if it is set up long enough. "Mulm" is a combination of algae, sponges, bacteria, pods, worms, detritus, poop and any thing else that can be propagated or grown in the dark. I realize most people would immediately get out the sponge, razor blade or grenade to remove it but there is a word I like to use to describe those people. That word is "wrong". Mulm is a natural product that you will find in the sea all over the world. Our tanks run on bacteria, algae and a food chain. Bacteria and a food chain are dependent on having a place to reproduce. Mulm is the perfect place. Rocks and glass are flat surfaces that are only two dimensional. Mulm makes these places three dimensional allowing much more space for bacteria and microscopic organisms to grow and do the macarana. (Then love to dance) Pods, which are needed for any small fish also need to eat and their numbers are directly related to how much food they can get their hands on (or whatever pods use to eat with) The more food, the more pods, the more pods, the easier to keep smaller fish. Larger fish such as copperbands and angels also eat pods.
Many people try to keep fish such as pipefish, mandarins or other dragonettes in a sterile tank and while feeding them a couple of times a day with tiger pods or some other expensive food. Those types of fish will not live for long in such a tank and they certainly won't spawn which I consider the "only" criteria to determine the state of health for any paired fish.
Mulm (after a while, maybe a few years) should grow on the back and sides of glass as well as under rocks.
Here in this picture of my clingfish, the mulm appears green. It is really brownish and that fish is on the side of my tank. I brightened up the picture and turned it sideways because it was in the dark and the fish was hard to see.
There is a thick layer of it on the back of my tank where my mandarins and pipefish like to hunt. My long spined urchin also grazes there most of the time as there is not much algae in my tank for him to eat. He is many years old as are the mandarins and pipefish and they are dependent on this food source.
A sterile tank IMO is the biggest problem we have keeping certain fish healthy.
Sterile is good in an operating room but very bad in a tank.

Is this the stuff you used?

 

[Subsea]

Is this the stuff you used?
View attachment 2406917

yes, Flourite is a part of mineral buffering in my systems.

 

[Greatreefer]

yes, Flourite is a part of mineral buffering in my systems.

do you mix it with aragonite sand to help with the PH?

 

[Subsea]

do you mix it with aragonite sand to help with the PH?

Aragonite is in display as reverse flow UG filter. In one tank, Flourite is in sump with miracle mud and in one tank Flourite is in path of display tank overflow to sump.

 

[Greatreefer]

Aragonite is in display as reverse flow UG filter. In one tank, Flourite is in sump with miracle mud and in one tank Flourite is in path of display tank overflow to sump.

do you run filter socks at all or do you let the macro algae and the other macrofaunas take the place of the filter socks?

 

[Subsea]

Phenomenal read! You should write a Reef2Reef article about this!

P.S. I am not seeing the picture of the clingfish you mentioned. Curious to know what it looks like.

I don’t recall a clingfish.



I might consider a yellow paper to submit dealing with nutrient management by old school reefer. I use recycling as the mainstay of nutrient management: algae, bacteria and cryptic sponges.

 

[Subsea]

do you run filter socks at all or do you let the macro algae and the other macrofaunas take the place of the filter socks?

I do not run filter socks because they remove food diversity for micro fauna & fana. For long term stability, I focus on “microbial overlords”.

I am all about nutrient recycling: MULM, Microbial Loop, and Sponge Loop

 

[Greatreefer]

With respect to mud filter, I initially bought Miracle Mud. 25 years ago. After much research, there is no Miracle Mud. The fine grain size provides a matrix for micro inverts which is the miracle in the mud: biodiversity.

Iron is a major mineral in miracle mud. So, instead of replacing mud, I added Seachem Iron substrate. I also dose iron and ChaetoGrow and do water changes once a year, if I need it.

let’s talk about detritus & MULM

"Mulm" in a reef tank

I think one of the most important, and least understood or mentioned things in a reef tank is "mulm". That stuff that grows in the dark portions of a tank if it is set up long enough. "Mulm" is a combination of algae, sponges, bacteria, pods, worms, detritus, poop and any thing else that can be p...

wamas.org

I think one of the most important, and least understood or mentioned things in a reef tank is "mulm". That stuff that grows in the dark portions of a tank if it is set up long enough. "Mulm" is a combination of algae, sponges, bacteria, pods, worms, detritus, poop and any thing else that can be propagated or grown in the dark. I realize most people would immediately get out the sponge, razor blade or grenade to remove it but there is a word I like to use to describe those people. That word is "wrong". Mulm is a natural product that you will find in the sea all over the world. Our tanks run on bacteria, algae and a food chain. Bacteria and a food chain are dependent on having a place to reproduce. Mulm is the perfect place. Rocks and glass are flat surfaces that are only two dimensional. Mulm makes these places three dimensional allowing much more space for bacteria and microscopic organisms to grow and do the macarana. (Then love to dance) Pods, which are needed for any small fish also need to eat and their numbers are directly related to how much food they can get their hands on (or whatever pods use to eat with) The more food, the more pods, the more pods, the easier to keep smaller fish. Larger fish such as copperbands and angels also eat pods.
Many people try to keep fish such as pipefish, mandarins or other dragonettes in a sterile tank and while feeding them a couple of times a day with tiger pods or some other expensive food. Those types of fish will not live for long in such a tank and they certainly won't spawn which I consider the "only" criteria to determine the state of health for any paired fish.
Mulm (after a while, maybe a few years) should grow on the back and sides of glass as well as under rocks.
Here in this picture of my clingfish, the mulm appears green. It is really brownish and that fish is on the side of my tank. I brightened up the picture and turned it sideways because it was in the dark and the fish was hard to see.
There is a thick layer of it on the back of my tank where my mandarins and pipefish like to hunt. My long spined urchin also grazes there most of the time as there is not much algae in my tank for him to eat. He is many years old as are the mandarins and pipefish and they are dependent on this food source.
A sterile tank IMO is the biggest problem we have keeping certain fish healthy.
Sterile is good in an operating room but very bad in a tank.

yeah, I'm not seeing pictures either. Please post again, would be interested to see a more close up picts of your setup.

 

[Subsea]

yeah, I'm not seeing pictures either. Please post again, would be interested to see a more close up picts of your setup.

What specifics do you want addressed? My tank thread has a lot of pictures.

 

[Greatreefer]

What specifics do you want addressed? My tank thread has a lot of pictures.

I guess what I'm really curious about is your reverse flow under gravel filter. Out of all my years in playing with fish tanks, I've never even thought about using these. Mainly because I had thought they were an old outdated and inefficient filtration method. Compared to the current filtration technology that has come out over the decade. I honestly moved away from canister filters back in the mid 90's and have been a fan of sump filtration ever sense. Its really interesting to me to see and hear stories of people who are still rocking these older filtration styles and would LOVE to see closeup pictures of how this works and see it in action and how the undergravel filter plays a roll in the growth of the macro algae.
If you have a build thread, I'd LOVE to take a look at it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Could seagrasses be the solution to deep sand bed issues? My belief is that they could eliminate nutrient and organic buildup as they can only take in nutrients through their roots

I don't know about the validity of the cleaning of sand beds by sea grasses, but this paper just came out, indicting that sea grass can actually grow in the absence of N sources by fixing nitrogen itself (via bacteria in its roots). So it need not take up N from a sand bed:

A seagrass harbours a nitrogen-fixing bacterial partner

Root-dwelling microbes help seagrasses to obtain nitrogen.

www.nature.com

 

[Subsea]

@Greatreefer
Cannister filters are handily used between tanks as required. I use them to cycle tanks and of recent as an instant source of transferring biodiversity of pods & cryptic sponges.

When you speak of outdated filtration method, let’s address that. I choose to produce in tank live food to feed hungry mouths using sandbeds & cryptic sponges that process DOC 5 fold more efficiently than activated carbon which processes DOC 4 fold more efficiently than protein skimmers.

When John Tullock wrote the Natural Reef Aquarium my favorite quote was “Less Technology / More biology”.

Build thread is in my signature, but let’s talk here.

The undergravel filter is a competitor of macro algae, but it does much more. It grows detrivores whose larva feed corals. As a Laissez Faire reefkeeper and an organic gardner I choose to use simple natural systems that integrate bacteria, algae & sponge recycling.
Instead of high alkalinity demanding SPS, I choose other filter feeders like ornamental sponges, flame scallops and sea apples with a mixed garden of softies. I allow night time pH swings to lower pH which contributes to passive alkalinity buffering and trace mineral addition. I have not changed water in several years, but plan to change 100% volume over a 7 day period this year.. It’s cheaper than ICP testing.

 

[Casket_Case]

I've had the same problem locating them for sale, especially the shorter species that would fit in a normal tank height. The restrictions on collection are pretty strict so I'm not sure that's going to change anytime soon. I've had a plan for an attatched low boy style tank(rubbermaid 50 gallon trough) with some mangroves along the back and something like star grass along the front with a school of psuedomugil cyanodorsalis mostly by themselves.

Maybe someday.

I just got mine from going to the Gulf of Mexico and picking up full stalks that washed up