A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[EmdeReef]

You misunderstand me. I did not mean to say that captive bread fish have suppressed immunity. I only say that it has been shown that fish have a specific acquired immune system too – as we human have. But this system has to be activated by a specific pathogen first in order to produce specific antibodies for that specific pathogen. So even if captive breed fish can form these specific antibodies – they have not meet any of these pathogens and therefore could be very sensitive to normal bacteria that wild fish can handle with help of the specific defence system. There is a lot of literature of fish specific immune system – just google and there is in aquaculture even vaccines developed. For the book – I do not see vaccines as a prophylactic treatment.

A couple of years ago we had two major wholesales of fresh water fish here in south of Sweden. The LFS was divided into two groups of favourite suppliers – saying that the other (that they did not use) delivered sick fishes. The problem was that the mixed the fishes from different suppliers in the same aquaria and they were used of different microbial floraWhen LFS start to have fishes from different suppliers in different aquaria and slowly mix the water during time – it works out and the fish get used of a greater macrofauna.


It’s like me going to Spain and drink their water – I get sick. And the other way around.



Tihs is exact the way a specific acquired immune system works – low contact with pathogens activate the inherent production of antibodies designed to fight just that microorganism – and the fish is prepared for a massive attack. This is the natural vaccine model



All I can say is that we all get very surprised when we saw how the captive bred fish react when they come down to the other fishes. We thought that the behaviour to seek cover was a genetic coded behaviour – but these 100 fishes show another thing – seeking cover for these three species of Clown fish was certainly a learned behaviour.

Sincerely Lasse

I don’t think I misunderstood. There’s an implication in your reply that captive bred fish would have less developed immunity and I don’t think there’s any evidence for that. Yes there is specific immunity in fish and people and other organisms but it’s by and large a “byproduct” of the innate immunity, in other words cells fight pathogens and by getting sufficient exposure the response becomes quicker and more effective. A healthy fish will be able to fight off many of the same pathogens and gain similar immunity in a closed loop system.

A newly born fish in the ocean isn’t instantly inoculated against all bacteria or pathogens in its surrounding any better than a captive bred one. At least there’s no evidence for something like that.

There’s also no evidence of widespread immunity to crypto or amyloodinum in nature. Both of the parasites being ancient and very much thriving. Both usually cause very mild infections in otherwise healthy fish in the ocean (higher virulence would’ve been evolutionary counterproductive). One of the key reasons why vaccines against crypto have failed is the fact that at low exposures fish don’t seem to gain adequate lasting immunity. You can google this.

I don’t wish to debate here as you will present your evidence to support your views but can we please make sure to separate opinions, hypotheses and theories from actual empirical evidence.

As of right now there’s no reliable evidence that captive bred fish will fare any worse than wild caught ones ( in our tanks) when it comes pathogens.

 

[Brew12]

So are all the other antibiotic formluae. Without a prescription

My understanding is that the ban encompassed anything that could be considered a fish medication.

 

[Tautog]

There’s some good reads here............
I was always told to quarantine, quarantine, quarantine! But never did. I did have Ick with a PBT, lost a few fish, but in 4 yrs, I still have fish I started with 4 days after set up.
Finding a great LPS with quality fish, disease free, and fish that look healthy, is Priceless.
How anyone buys fish “ online “ is always taking a chance, sight unseen.
I spend days watching a fish I’m interested in, but sometimes I buy, and take a chance.
I collect many fish and inverts for a local tank, and never quarantine them.....ever! I’ve had fish for 2-3 yrs, then released back to ocean, due to over growing the tank.
FWIW, there’s millions of health problems all fish can receive, but most either live with the fish or kill it. Most parasites can be scraped off by you or the fish. I have collected fish, baby fish, with such parasites, and a yr later, the sore is still present, bigger, fish grew, and still very healthy. If you ever fished by a water treatment plant with hot water discharge, the fish are alive, grow big, but they look nasty. So nasty that you don’t want to touch them, eat them, only release them. Once the fish leaves the warm water area, they shed the puss-like stuff their covered in.

 

[MnFish1]

I did. It shows an average intensity of around 7-8 of the fish that were infected. It also showed seasonal changes where ich was significantly less prevalent.

"In fact, Cryptocaryon irritans is rare in the wild, and even more unlikely to be lethal (Bunkley-Williams & Williams, 1994). Ich is truly a disease that exploits the conditions of captivity to reproduce and easily find suitable hosts."
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

This is certainly correct ie that in captivity it can be worse. The surprising information was how widespread it was at certain seasons. The average is meaningless in this context. But if your point is that ich in a tank is more likely to be lethal true. However there are lots of people on this forum that say ich is totallly benign. I would like to see other than opinion how anyone would could measure how lethal ich is in the wild. I think I did we something o. It though

 

[MnFish1]

My understanding is that the ban encompassed anything that could be considered a fish medication.

You need a prescription from a vet. You cannot get metroplex from a vet for example. But they could give you a prescription for metronidazole and the other Ingredient. As to copper I don’t know how that would work. I could conceive of veterinarians selling copper safe for example

 

[User1]

I collect many fish and inverts for a local tank, and never quarantine them.....ever! I’ve had fish for 2-3 yrs, then released back to ocean, due to over growing the tank.

Releasing back into the wild after introducing to home aquariums is a no-no. In some states illegal.

Recreational fishing catch and release != catching and bringing home only to release a couple years later due to growth in captivity for many reasons both pathogen and eating habit change.

 

[Cyricdark]

I don’t think I misunderstood. There’s an implication in your reply that captive bred fish would have less developed immunity and I don’t think there’s any evidence for that. Yes there is specific immunity in fish and people and other organisms but it’s by and large a “byproduct” of the innate immunity, in other words cells fight pathogens and by getting sufficient exposure the response becomes quicker and more effective. A healthy fish will be able to fight off many of the same pathogens and gain similar immunity in a closed loop system.

A newly born fish in the ocean isn’t instantly inoculated against all bacteria or pathogens in its surrounding any better than a captive bred one. At least there’s no evidence for something like that.

There’s also no evidence of widespread immunity to crypto or amyloodinum in nature. Both of the parasites being ancient and very much thriving. Both usually cause very mild infections in otherwise healthy fish in the ocean (higher virulence would’ve been evolutionary counterproductive). One of the key reasons why vaccines against crypto have failed is the fact that at low exposures fish don’t seem to gain adequate lasting immunity. You can google this.

I don’t wish to debate here as you will present your evidence to support your views but can we please make sure to separate opinions, hypotheses and theories from actual empirical evidence.

As of right now there’s no reliable evidence that captive bred fish will fare any worse than wild caught ones ( in our tanks) when it comes pathogens.

I love getting captive-bred fish any captive-bred fish I've ever gotten has just been a perfect specimen great appetites no aggression towards other fish even in captive-bred tangs my other fish are less aggressive towards them. They eat like pigs pretty much anything I want to feed them. I currently have a captive-bred dottyback, 3 yellow tangs and one blue tang in my system and of course clownfish. Captive-bred tangs in particular are just almost a completely different personality fish they're so happy and healthy in a tank environment I would go so far as to say that they would probably do a much better job of fighting off a parasite or a pathogen just due to their near complete lack of stress from being in an aquarium.

 

[Tautog]

Stress kills fish more than anything! Fish die, get over it. Stop naming your fish. Why, I don’t know, but no names live longer.
If you lose a very expensive fish, or tank buddy, simply wrap in Saran Wrap, place in freezer. Remove to view during your sad days...............during your happy hour! Get your monies worth!

 

[MnFish1]

My understanding is that the ban encompassed anything that could be considered a fish medication.

It’s for every livestock medication not just fish. So the beef farmer can’t go to fleet farm and buy penicillin. In researching this there are apparently many people that take fish Medicine as compared to prescriptions due to cost

 

[Tautog]

Releasing back into the wild after introducing to home aquariums is a no-no. In some states illegal.

Recreational fishing catch and release != catching and bringing home only to release a couple years later due to growth in captivity for many reasons both pathogen and eating habit change.

May be illegal in some states, but I’m not telling, and fish aren’t mammals, and they forget 10 seconds later. Fish are always looking for food. Your stance on releasing back into the wild is totally off-base, and very silly. As far as releasing pathogens, again, wrong. Most pathogens would eventually kill fish.......fact!

 

[Cyricdark]

It’s for every livestock medication not just fish. So the beef farmer can’t go to fleet farm and buy penicillin. In researching this there are apparently many people that take fish Medicine as compared to prescriptions due to cost

I always heard Canada had free healthcare I guess that doesn't cover prescriptions?

 

[FlyPenFly]

Good re-read given this topic...

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/the-other-way-to-run-a-reef-tank-no-quarantine.573/

 

[Tautog]

It’s for every livestock medication not just fish. So the beef farmer can’t go to fleet farm and buy penicillin. In researching this there are apparently many people that take fish Medicine as compared to prescriptions due to cost

The beef farmer, Black Angus, wants the best price, and needs the best foods and blood line to be considered PRIME. Meds are a big no no! Separation from other herds is more important.

 

[MnFish1]

The beef farmer, Black Angus, wants the best price, and needs the best foods and blood line to be considered PRIME. Meds are a big no no! Separation from other herds is more important.

All I was saying is why they put the law into effect. And that’s why

 

[User1]

May be illegal in some states, but I’m not telling, and fish aren’t mammals, and they forget 10 seconds later. Fish are always looking for food. Your stance on releasing back into the wild is totally off-base, and very silly. As far as releasing pathogens, again, wrong. Most pathogens would eventually kill fish.......fact!

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

 

[MnFish1]

May be illegal in some states, but I’m not telling, and fish aren’t mammals, and they forget 10 seconds later. Fish are always looking for food. Your stance on releasing back into the wild is totally off-base, and very silly. As far as releasing pathogens, again, wrong. Most pathogens would eventually kill fish.......fact!

In our state you can’t fish and put the catch in a tank without a permit. And you certainly can’t release them back

 

[Lasse]

I don’t think I misunderstood. There’s an implication in your reply that captive bred fish would have less developed immunity and I don’t think there’s any evidence for that. Yes there is specific immunity in fish and people and other organisms but it’s by and large a “byproduct” of the innate immunity, in other words cells fight pathogens and by getting sufficient exposure the response becomes quicker and more effective. A healthy fish will be able to fight off many of the same pathogens and gain similar immunity in a closed loop system.

Before we continue with this - Have we the same definition of the innate and the specific immun system? with specific immunity - I mean the adaptive/acquired immune system.

Let me put this question - if you have a fish born and raised in more or less laboratory conditions (pathogen free and low diversity environment) and a fish born and raised out in the wild and you mix both of them in a home aquaria – which of them is most prepared to handle normal existing microorganisms like obligate pathogens, facultative pathogens and non-pathogens

Why is there a need of vaccinate land reared smolt against vibrio and other bacterial caused diseases before placing in cages out in the wild?

And how do you think about recently upcoming facts and theories about the link between allergy and too less exposures for normal microbes during early childhood? Note I do not use the word “hygiene hypothesis” because the word target hygiene hypothesis maybe is a better word

IMO – capitative bred fish is very important for the hobby in the future of many reasons but the disease problem will not change. In fresh water more than 90 % are capitative bred – but there is still problem with diseases and if you mix fishes from different breeders – you often run into problems

Both usually cause very mild infections in otherwise healthy fish in the ocean (higher virulence would’ve been evolutionary counterproductive)

At a population level - that´s true - but at the individual level - it is not true. If a swarm of parasites have the oppurtinity to invade one host - they will do that without thinking - dam - this is evolutionary counterproductive.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[George81]

I always heard Canada had free healthcare I guess that doesn't cover prescriptions?

It goes province by province, in Ontario we don’t have prescriptions covered, people under 25 and over 65 I believe were supposed to have it covered along with dental but the conservatives put and end to that....that’s a whole other issue. We also used to be covered abroad too, but again provincial conservatives hacked that too....

Our healthcare isn’t “free” it’s paid for by our taxes. But instead of carrying your own policy think about all working citizens contributing to a massive group healthcare plan. I have benefits through my employer that covers the majority of prescription costs. When we leave the doctors office or hospital, or specialist, surgeries, etc..we don’t pay for treatment, we do however have to pay if we call ambulance, private hospital rooms, and some other things I can’t quite think of.

some Americans I’ve worked with from Michigan and New York have said our prescription drugs are significantly cheaper.

 

[MnFish1]

I did. It shows an average intensity of around 7-8 of the fish that were infected. It also showed seasonal changes where ich was significantly less prevalent.

"In fact, Cryptocaryon irritans is rare in the wild, and even more unlikely to be lethal (Bunkley-Williams & Williams, 1994). Ich is truly a disease that exploits the conditions of captivity to reproduce and easily find suitable hosts."
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

You misinterpreted the article - quoted above - it says in the article: Out of a total of 211 fish (15 species), 143 (67.7 %) were found to be infected with the mean intensity of 7.67 parasites per field of view (x4 magnification).

This does not mean 7-8 tormonts per fish (in your original post - you said maybe 1-2 torments would be found on a wild fish) - The way its written in the paper means 7-8 torments per 4x magnified field (i.e. under a microscope. In the article it also states (contrary to your quote from reef keeping.com) that some fish were severely affected:

The infected fish with a mean intensity higher than 10 parasites per field of view showed clear white spots on the skin, gills and eyes

At the advanced stages of infection, these white spotswere visible to naked eyes. Other typical signs were pale fills, ragged fins, changes in skin colour,cloudy eyes and increased
mucus production. The behaviours of the infected fish also changed including hanging at the surface or at the sites of incoming water, acting lethargic, scratching(fl
ashing) or swimming abnormally, and rapidly breathin due to the presence of the parasites on gills
leading to damages of gill tissue. At this stage, sporadic to mass mortality of infected fish occurred.
Similar typical signs of infected fish were described in various studies on infection of
C.irritans[4,17].


BTW - THE SPELL CHECK CHANGES TORMONTS to TORMENTS lol
(5) (PDF) The Prevalence of Cryptocaryon irritans in wild marine ornamental fish from Vietnam. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_in_wild_marine_ornamental_fish_from_Vietnam[accessed May 07 2019].

 

[ReefWithCare]

I wish they would do a study on velvet and state percentages from the sample