A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

FlyPenFly

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I believe Polyplab Medic runs on some kind of oxidation principle but it's claims are pretty generous. Helps with Ich, Velvet, etc...

They're also a company who generally don't put out bad products but who knows.
 

Paul Sands

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From my understanding - its not the free swimming ones that are a problem in hypoxic environments (Low oxygen). Do you keep fish in your frag tanks? - if not - its not likely that you have CI or velvet (depending on how long you keep them in your frag tank).

I think there is a difference as well (in the debate you mentioned) - I think part of that was 'anoxic' vs 'hypoxic'. There are surely hypoxic areas in some parts of the tank (i.e. a. lower than 'normal' oxygen level. Unfortunately - I dont remember the exact amount of DO2 they were talking about in the study - I'm sure @Humblefish would know.

No fish in frag tank. That would defeat the purpose for my approach.

There is a small chance that there may be free swimming parasites if there were any encysted trophonts on a frag that hatched in the previous 24-48 hours. Frags do get rotated in and out of the frag tank.

I think my approach generally follows what humblefish recommends in his awesome QT post.
 

Paul B

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Nice MnFish. And it looks like the fish like the music. :D

Still waiting on that achilles or PBT buddy!

If I find one I will get it. My tank has almost always had hippo tangs as they don't bore me as much as the rest of the tangs. :rolleyes:
I think my last one lived about 12 years.
 

sfin52

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The same thing happens in the chemical side of pest control. Insects become immune to chemicals after years of use in the industry. They are constantly trying to stay ahead of it.
Immune no but resistant or avoidance bugs learn. I walked into a restaurant to treat for roaches. After three services the population was growing. I switched roach bait and three months no more roaches.
Rodents are the same way.
warfarin. Was a rat poison before a human medication. Now rodents eat it and keep moving.

Look we have strains of ich that live well past our fallow period. A couple of years ago leave tank fallow for 28 days. Now it's in the 70 plus mark.

We are over medicating and not killing off the bugs.
 

MnFish1

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Oops - I didnt upload the video - its a little 'foggy due to the amount of bubbles' - but it gives the idea through the whole thing of the flow with the alternating Gyres - I have a feeling this is a fair bit more than most tanks. But - I also think it helps with parasite control

 

Paul B

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Look we have strains of ich that live well past our fallow period. A couple of years ago leave tank fallow for 28 days. Now it's in the 70 plus mark.

For the people who quarantine, why don't you just decorate your quarantine tanks and call that your DT. :D
 

FlyPenFly

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Yes, but your tank is like Lasse's in that you have a huge number of coral "mouths". I don't have nearly as many. I could be wrong, but I do feel that may be the single most effective parasite limiting method we can employ.
Of course, your Godzilla larvae may have scared all the parasites out, too. Always a possibility.

Super interesting, do you think the amount of space polyps take up play a role?
 
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Brew12

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I believe Polyplab Medic runs on some kind of oxidation principle but it's claims are pretty generous. Helps with Ich, Velvet, etc...

They're also a company who generally don't put out bad products but who knows.
The problem with Polyp lab medic isn't so much the principle as much as the dosing instructions are misleading. It will not eradicate a parasite if used as directed. If it is designed to reduce parasite levels while the fish builds its innate immunity than it could be effective.
 
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Brew12

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Super interesting, do you think the amount of space polyps take up play a role?
I do. There is no reason to think that some of these corals won't eat parasites if they can filter them from the water. The more space they take up the less chance a parasite has to find a hard surface to land on without being consumed.
 

FlyPenFly

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The problem with Polyp lab medic isn't so much the principle as much as the dosing instructions are misleading. It will not eradicate a parasite if used as directed. If it is designed to reduce parasite levels while the fish builds its innate immunity than it could be effective.

I agree and I don't think they say they eradicate it on the bottle or box. I think they just indicate it helps manage it but I could be wrong. I wonder if it's even effective at that. I also wonder if it has any sort of effect on a reef tank with long term continued use.
 
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Brew12

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I agree and I don't think they say they eradicate it on the bottle or box. I think they just indicate it helps manage it but I could be wrong. I wonder if it's even effective at that. I also wonder if it has any sort of effect on a reef tank with long term continued use.
It is a peroxide salt and we know that hydrogen peroxide can be effective. I do believe it will eliminate some parasites while it is active. I don't think it will do any more than regular H2O2.
 

Mastiffsrule

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Qt works, prove me wrong

upload_2019-5-10_18-29-30.jpeg
 

FlyPenFly

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I only know people on these forums that have fish as everyone else I know already died, is in the process of dying or died and they don't know it yet. But on this forum there are at least two people who use variations of my method. Lasse and Atoll. I think SubSea also. I know 4 or 5 people on other forums that follow my theory. I have spoke at aquarium clubs 4 times to teach my method, which is so easy Nancy Pelosi could do it. :rolleyes: All of the old tanks follow my theory (I think). As I said, except for Humblefish I know of absolutely no old quarantined tanks, do you?

I just went on the disease thread and it is heartbreaking how many fish we are killing with kindness, thinking we are doing something good. 200 years ago we used to "bleed" people to cure them. Even George Washington was bled. That was top notch medical care in those days. Then someone came along who thought outside the box and said, "Like Duh" Most of these people are dying, maybe we should try something else like maybe keeping the blood in the people.
Galallio figured out that the Earth was not the center of the universe. After saying that they banned him from all these forums. He was Ex communicated and jailed. But he was right. Just because something is done by almost everyone, doesn't make it right. I have a reverse undergravel filter that 98.7 % of the people will say can't work in salt water, and yet my tank is the oldest one on here so how bad could it be? :cool:
I dump NSW into my tank every few months and I take it right near the shore along with mud, amphipods, crabs, flounders Godzilla larvae and most people tell me I am playing Russian Roulette, for 48 years so I must be very lucky. I have been waiting for a Supermodel to knock on my door to help with reef maintenance for all that time an so far all I get is people wanting to clean my gutters or reduce my credit card interest. so I can't be too lucky. :confused:

Quarantined fish are always living on the edge and the first parasite that gets in either on a coral, food, seaweed or water will catch whatever it is and those fish are almost impossible to cure as they have no immunity. If you were to cure those fish, whatever little immunity they originally had would be gone. It's a simple thing. Fish are already immune in the sea. Just feed them food with living bacteria in it and do nothing to remove or kill parasites. Either use live worms a couple of times a week, get clams that did not come from a commercial fish food manufacturer or use fresh fish. Or if you are in Idaho, add garden soil. Anything with living bacteria. Use no dry foods or freeze dried perish the thought. Thats the whole system. :D
It seems so simple to me that it must be wrong. :rolleyes:

Remember the boy in the bubble? He probably died because he could not live in the world with the rest of us and always had to be quarantined.
Always makes me laugh, glad to see you're still in the hobby!
 
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Brew12

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Always makes me laugh, glad to see you're still in the hobby!
I wish he would leave the hobby. He's hogging all the healthy fish and supermodels. :confused::mad:
 

Paul B

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Super interesting, do you think the amount of space polyps take up play a role?
No.

I wish he would leave the hobby. He's hogging all the healthy fish and supermodels. :confused::mad:

I like to annoy people. :cool:

Always makes me laugh, glad to see you're still in the hobby!

As long as I am on the right side of the grass, I will be in the hobby. Someone has to teach all of you Noobs. And you are all Noobs to me. :rolleyes:
 

sfin52

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As long as I am on the right side of the grass, I will be in the hobby. Someone has to teach all of you Noobs. And you are all Noobs to me.

Noob so hateful. What, ive been doing this for almost five years. I know everything grandpa.

Wait in that light I'm still a noob. I give up. I can't argue with a guru.
 

drstardust

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This is why I broke down my first large post on page 13 into the different options I laid out.
We basically have 3 possibilities on what people are willing to do with their fish, corals, inverts, etc. For the purpose of my post, I'm going to focus on fish though...

Option 1.
No QT, no observation, no dip, just straight in the tank after acclimation (float for temp, drip, etc).

Option 2.
Dip before going into the tank. Dip in either fresh water, a methylene blue, formalin, Rally, Hydroplex, Safety Stop, etc.

Option 3.
QT. The option most readily accepted as the best. This is what all (or almost all) of us believe one should do. But... what does QT mean exactly?

I really do think we need to look at the 4 different styles of QT I listed and discuss the pros and cons of each, and explore different ways to make each more effective. Consider making the following 4 terms common place when discuss QT options.



QT Option 1. OBSERVATION ONLY QT.
Observation only QT. If no diseases or other problems show, then the fish is released into the display after 2-6 weeks. Treatments are only done as needed. Treatments end up being disease specific, and most likely one of the 3 below.


For QT Options 2, 3, & 4 deciding on if to prophylactically treat immediately or after a 1-2 week resting period I think is also important.

QT Option 2. PROPHYLACTIC QT WITH ZERO MEDS.
Prophylactically treating everything in QT WITH ZERO MEDS, regardless of if they appear healthy or not with. Prophylactic Treatment can be either immediate or after a short resting period.

Possible treatment options:
-TTM
-Fresh Water Dips/baths
-Daily Siphoning via small water changes (Anthony Calfo method, and similar to fishery method)
-Daily Siphoning via large (50%) water changes (Steven Pro method)
-Micro Filtration: DE Filter, RO Sediment Filters, etc.

This is all based on the premise of outrunning the parasites known life cycles, and killing/harming them with the fresh water dips. Should theoretically work for Ich, Velvet, and most likely also Flukes, Brook, Black Ich and possibly more (Uronema marinum & other protozoa).

If Uronema marinum, Fungi, bacteria, other protozoa, Flukes, Internal parasites, and/or intestinal worms become an issue then the usage of meds such as those listed in QT Option 3 and QT Option 4 become needed.


QT Option 3. PROPHYLACTIC QT WITH NON-TOXIC/MILD MEDS.
Prophylactically treating everything in QT WITH Non-Toxic/Mild MEDS and other remedies, regardless of if they appear healthy or not with. Prophylactic Treatment can be either immediate or after a short resting period.

I say non-toxic/mild meds and other remedies because the ones listed to my knowledge aren't carcinogenic, poisonous, don't cause feeding issues, or known to harm the immune system.


Possible treatment options:
-TTM
-Fresh Water Dips
-Daily Siphoning via small water changes (Anthony Calfo method, and similar to fishery method)
-Daily Siphoning via large (50%) water changes (Steven Pro method)
-Micro Filtration: DE Filter, RO Sediment Filters, etc.
-H2O2
-Methylene Blue
-Antiseptics (like Acriflavine, such as Ruby Reef Rally)
-Probiotics
-Vitamins
-Herbal Remedies

Again, is all based on the premise of outrunning the parasites known life cycles, and killing/harming them with the fresh water dips and/or mild meds and other remedies. Should theoretically work for Ich, Velvet, and most likely also Flukes, Brook, Black Ich, Fungi, bacteria, and possibly more (Uronema marinum & other protozoa).

The mild meds such as Acriflavine, H2O2, Methylene Blue, and possible others would help work against those 5 parasites plus some other issues like Fungi, bacteria, other protozoa, and possibly helping for Uronema marinum.

If Flukes, Internal parasites, bacterial issues, Uronema marinum, other protozoa, and/or intestinal worms become an issue that can't be treated with mild meds, probiotics, good diet, low stress, and/or heal on their own from the fishes immune system then the usage of toxic meds become an option for treatment. This is obviously a last resort option.


QT Option 4. PROPHYLACTIC QT TOXIC MEDS.
Prophylactically treating everything in QT WITH TOXIC MEDS, regardless of if they appear healthy or not with. Prophylactic Treatment can be either immediate or after a short resting period.

I say toxic meds because the ones listed to my knowledge are either carcinogenic, poisonous, known to cause feeding issues, or known to harm the immune system.

TOXIC treatment options:
-Copper
-CP
-Praziquantel
-Metronidazole
-Formalin
-AntiBiotics
-Other meds (some may require a prescription)

Non-Toxic treatment options that can be combined with above if desired:
-TTM
-Fresh Water Dips
-Daily Siphoning via small water changes (Anthony Calfo method, and similar to fishery method)
-Daily Siphoning via large (50%) water changes (Steven Pro method)
-Micro Filtration: DE Filter, RO Sediment Filters, etc.
-H2O2
-Methylene Blue
-Antiseptics (like Acriflavine, such as Ruby Reef Rally)
-Probiotics
-Vitamins
-Herbal Remedies

Copper, CP, Praziquantel, Metronidazole, Formalin, and even possibly Antibiotics are used in some combo prophylactically and done to ensure totally elimination of any/all parasites and diseases.

This option does have the potential issues mentioned so far in this thread, such as damaged immune system, carcinogenic, poisonous, feeding problems, possible disease resistance to meds, and potentially others.

Again... to me, QT Option 4 is what is currently most often used and suggested.


QT Options 2 & 3 are my personal favorites, and what I'm most comfortable doing in my own home with my tanks.

What we can start doing, if we can get a large enough group of willing participants together, is have different groups of us try the different options and compare results. Obviously this isn't nearly as rigorous as an actual scientific study, but it could at least provide some insight into these choices.
 

HAVE YOU EVER KEPT A RARE/UNCOMMON FISH, CORAL, OR INVERT? SHOW IT OFF IN THE THREAD!

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