A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[Lasse]

This is 4 month old - but you may have read it many times in spite of that?

And if you scrool down the page - you get 40 references more

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ngoodermuth]

IMO - these are regards as antibiotics too Metronidazzole is even antibacterial and used in nearly all stomach operations - believe me - I know. There is recistance to these drugs too

very good but I remember the reactions that come up when this first was discussed

Sincerely Lasse

I do know this about metronidazole, and I even know that it is an awful drug to have to take. I've been prescribed it before and had to discontinue treatment after 3 days because it was making me so ill. I even said to my husband that I feel bad for giving it to my fish, but just don't see any other good options to be sure I'm not going to accidentally introduce brook or uronema. Formalin dips... but I considered Metro the lesser of two evils there.

What reactions do you mean? If you have links to specific threads I would be interested to read them...

 

[Paul Sands]

This is 4 month old - but you may have read it many times in spite of that?

And if you scrool down the page - you get 40 references more

Sincerely Lasse

It’s fantastic that they are getting close to having a vaccine for ich. I’m sure that all the people who won’t even bother to quarantine to prevent this disease will soon be rushing to take their fish into their local vet to get them vaccinated.(/sarcasm)

 

[Mastiffsrule]

I also think you seem to be missing the point that a fish that has survived a substantial disease is more likely to be weaker and have associated infections. Your claim that fish are stronger is unsupported and undermined by the very link you provided.

Respectfully I am not in agreement with fish being weaker. I have real world example from my 10 year old tank and fish. I am attaching pix before and after of a recent ich outbreak I had. Also, keep in mind 5 years ago both the following tangs were also the only survivors of a velvet outbreak.

There was no medication involved, no QT or removing from DT. Only treatment was more Nori and Freshly frozen clams and Selcon and Zoecon.

Disregard yellow tang fins. Old injury never regrew. And pix kinda bad

 

[ngoodermuth]

Agreed. And I don't know. But I want to find out. We know some species are much more tolerant of parasites than others. Do we recommend starting with clown fish and maybe some wrasses while the tank matures? What other fish may do better in a starting tank? Is there actually a benefit of having a zoa garden or large GSP patch? Would a small herd of Peppermint Shrimp help protect against flukes?

No idea... but I want to find out.

One thing that was mentioned at some point and kind of stuck with me, is newly hatched baby brine. Supposedly, they eat velvet dinospores like bacon and eggs. I found that interesting considering PaulB feeds baby brine shrimp daily for his mandarins and pipefish.

See? I am willing to have this conversation... just not ready to go full on immune tank mode lol

 

[Mastiffsrule]

One thing that was mentioned at some point and kind of stuck with me, is newly hatched baby brine. Supposedly, they eat velvet dinospores like bacon and eggs. I found that interesting considering PaulB feeds baby brine shrimp daily for his mandarins and pipefish.

See? I am willing to have this conversation... just not ready to go full on immune tank mode lol

I glossed over that in my readings of his. That is great you brought that up.

 

[MnFish1]

I glossed over that in my readings of his. That is great you brought that up.

And @Brew12 mentioned this as well - I think - or @Lasse - coral and other filter feeders also eat them up.

 

[KJoFan]

This is the data I wish we had more of. What did he do differently that allowed him to have velvet in his system with no visible issues that changed with your tank? My entire reason for writing this article was to try and encourage people to gather and share information along these lines. We tend to see a lot of information from a few very experienced hobbyists but there are likely tens of thousands of reef tanks our there with velvet in them that show no symptoms.


I would do.. and eventually I think I will. I just want more information and a wider input base to make sure my tank is ready to transition away from the treatments I currently do. I'm not there yet.

I wonder as well, what was different about his tank than mine. Did he just have "healthier" fish? Was there ever some kind of outbreak, that took care of itself in his tank? I don't know.

I also don't KNOW it was his fish that brought it to mine, but when ALL of my fish died and his two were the only two left standing without ever batting an eye so to speak, I have to think it was them with some immunity built up or something.

Then again, what's to say that the extensive treatments we're giving our fish aren't actually just breaking down their immunity such that we've created this fear of any disease reaching our tanks because on some level we know they won't be able to survive it? Not unlike the idea that we see some chronic diseases in the US and other first world countries that aren't seen in 2nd or 3rd world countries. Have we become so 'clean' we've lost some immunity? And have we created that same scenario with our fish?

 

[ngoodermuth]

I glossed over that in my readings of his. That is great you brought that up.

PaulB is like the poster child for disease management, but there are so many components to his system that work together to make it work as well as it does. I'm not sure that someone could just pick one or two pieces and still have the same success. My fear is when someone new to saltwater sees comments like "feed your fish well, feed them live brine and clam, and then they won't get sick" and then next thing you know, they are wailing for help in the disease forum because their 3-month old tank that has 15 fish is crashing... "But, I was feeding them live brine??"

 

[Paul Sands]

Respectfully I am not in agreement with fish being weaker. I have real world example from my 10 year old tank and fish. I am attaching pix before and after of a recent ich outbreak I had. Also, keep in mind 5 years ago both the following tangs were also the only survivors of a velvet outbreak.

There was no medication involved, no QT or removing from DT. Only treatment was more Nori and Freshly frozen clams and Selcon and Zoecon.

Disregard yellow tang fins. Old injury never regrew.

Glad your fish survived, but many tanks survive ich outbreaks and there is no way to confirm that your fish are somehow stronger from their battle with velvet. In fact, the study that was linked just a few posts prior would indicate that they had no additional immunity from surviving velvet.

 

[MnFish1]

PaulB is like the poster child for disease management, but there are so many components to his system that work together to make it work as well as it does. I'm not sure that someone could just pick one or two pieces and still have the same success. My fear is when someone new to saltwater sees comments like "feed your fish well, feed them live brine and clam, and then they won't get sick" and then next thing you know, they are wailing for help in the disease forum because their 3-month old tank that has 15 fish is crashing... "But, I was feeding them live brine??"

If you look at the picture of many of the 'immune tanks' - you will see few fish and many other things (at least the ones that I have seen). Maybe im mis-speaking here - but - low stocking density seems to play a role...?

 

[Cyricdark]

It seems to be very difficult to get the whole picture. These drugs affect the fish with stress, depressed immune system and many times bacteriological issues from bacteria that´s are faculative patoghens. Next cure will be antbacterial drugs, and you will end up with the conclusion - you need to have a sterile system.

Sincerely Lasse

Well right now my main display is completely free of those four parasites that I listed as far as I know and that's the result of a preventative treatment quarantine system specifically geared to eliminate those four parasites. I've had multiple stressing events happen including power outages, over-aggressive new additions, Etc that I think would have caused any number of outbreaks had they been present over the years, and I've dealt with bacterial infections before as well albeit not as a result of my preventative treatment typically the fish just came in with one already present from Shipping stress , truthfully I've never worried much about bacterial infections just because most of the time when I've dealt with them they've been limited to the fish that's infected I've never once had them spread even to other fish in the same quarantine tank but maybe I'm just lucky. So the conclusion that I've reached years ago and still hold to is keeping those parasites out of your system is good enough I have no need for a sterile aquarium and my opinion on that is never going to change primarily because I doubt if that's even possible in a home environment. But keeping out the four biggest infectious killers of fish saltwater home aquarium that's entirely possible and well worth the time and effort to do and well worth the rewards that you get from it which is a happy healthy tank and fish that live much longer than they would have in the wild statistically anyway.

 

[MnFish1]

Well right now my main display is completely free of those four parasites that I listed as far as I know and that's the result of a preventative treatment quarantine system specifically geared to eliminate those four parasites.

Great post - given what some here have said - how can you be sure that those parasites are not in your tank. Some would say (in fact there is a really convincing youtube video up right now that says - unless fish are stressed, etc - they will not succumb to disease. Im not questioning you to be a jerk - but only to ask - how are you 'assured' that those 4 major parasites arenotin your tank? As an educational lesson?

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Glad your fish survived, but many tanks survive ich outbreaks and there is no way to confirm that your fish are somehow stronger from their battle with velvet. In fact, the study that was linked just a few posts prior would indicate that they had no additional immunity from surviving velvet.

Agreed, I should have pointed out I was showing that with proper care they survived the both. I agree there is no way to confirm the link between disease and strengthen immu. There is also no way to discredit this.

PaulB is like the poster child for disease management, but there are so many components to his system that work together to make it work as well as it does. I'm not sure that someone could just pick one or two pieces and still have the same success. My fear is when someone new to saltwater sees comments like "feed your fish well, feed them live brine and clam, and then they won't get sick" and then next thing you know, they are wailing for help in the disease forum because their 3-month old tank that has 15 fish is crashing... "But, I was feeding them live brine??"

I really am not on my game tonight as far as expressing my thoughts am I.

Can I change it to read.....I was running similar systems before I started reading him back in the 80’s. I liked the brine aspect of his care I was not including in mine.

Like you I hope no one gets the idea from glossing over an article that you can throw food in and be good. But also We also don’t want a newer person coming in and pouring copper in a tank without knowing how to use it, or what lethal level are.

My approach is the info is out there. It is up to the individual to put it into action. This entire forum is dedicated to learning and helping. And it is a great forum with great people that do just that.

 

[Cyricdark]

Great post - given what some here have said - how can you be sure that those parasites are not in your tank. Some would say (in fact there is a really convincing youtube video up right now that says - unless fish are stressed, etc - they will not succumb to disease. Im not questioning you to be a jerk - but only to ask - how are you 'assured' that those 4 major parasites arenotin your tank? As an educational lesson?

Well if you read the whole post I said as far as I know they're not in my tank and I've had multiple stressing events that have happened over the years that most likely would have caused some kind of outbreak had they been present. To give one of many examples I was out of town for work and I had a MAG Drive pump dead short and throw a breaker now I had things in place for battery backups without me being home for a normal power outage but nothing in place to handle that so the tank set with no flow no heat nothing from the sump at all for 16 hours, I lost multiple fish and a few corals and the fish that were still alive in the tank pretty much hid for over a week they were so stressed out from that. but you know what they didn't do, they didn't break out with ich or velvet or any other kind of parasite like has happened to me when I very first got in the Hobby had something similar happen and did not properly quarantine. And that's really my whole point it's all well and good to say that you have this super healthy tank and you feed great and all your fish are super healthy because of it and they can fight off infections because of all that, but what happens when things are not that good in the tank what happens when the temperature drops 10 degrees or you put in some fish that has the personality of a blue devil damsel that's when not quarantining will come back and bite you in the butt.

 

[Michael Gilbreath]

I wonder if the types of corals we keep could play a factor into this if diseases find that a tank that is all SPS, LPS, or soft corals make a difference. Just a thought

 

[MnFish1]

Well if you read the whole post I said as far as I know they're not in my tank and I've had multiple stressing events that have happened over the years that most likely would have caused some kind of outbreak had they been present. To give one of many examples I was out of town for work and I had a MAG Drive pump dead short and throw a breaker now I had things in place for battery backups without me being home for a normal power outage but nothing in place to handle that so the tank set with no flow no heat nothing from the sump at all for 16 hours, I lost multiple fish and a few corals and the fish that were still alive in the tank pretty much hid for over a week they were so stressed out from that. but you know what they didn't do, they didn't break out with ich or velvet or any other kind of parasite like has happened to me when I very first got in the Hobby had something similar happen and did not properly quarantine. And that's really my whole point it's all well and good to say that you have this super healthy tank and you feed great and all your fish are super healthy because of it and they can fight off infections because of all that, but what happens when things are not that good in the tank what happens when the temperature drops 10 degrees or you put in some fish that has the personality of a blue devil damsel that's when not quarantining will come back and bite you in the butt.

I'm not trying to be offensive to you or anyone else. But - though there is evidence that CI (and perhaps others) - but at least CI dies out (and even though the results of that study are thought not to be true) - the idea is that in an older tank - the parasites present (in the presence of immune fish) - will eventually 'die out' - how can anyone know Ie. - I have not clue as to whether what I just said is correct 'in YOUR tank' or not. So - if the parasites aren't there - they will certainly not affect your tank. thats common sense. I have had similar events - with varying results - once a wipe out - the second - most of the coral in my build thread below is still alive and doing well - both for about the same length of time - you tell me if there is a reason why?

 

[HomeSlizzice]

What are the signs a fish thru QT, medicated or not is clean?

Fish, just like people, need immune systems. QT thru ttm is good. Bombing them with meds and other things are not. It is weakening the very thing they need, an immune system to help them fight. I don’t go to the store and buy every pill in the aisle in case I get a cold or headache. I rely on healthy eating and environment to help. If a cold comes on, then time to hit that aisle.

If the fish comes in with signs of illness them QT is in order. Just like at an emergency room it should be triaged. If the signs are minor try reducing stress and bumping up healthy feeding. If it is a case of fish 911, then hit the meds. Not every symptom calls for a nuclear strike.

To sum up, can you guarantee me if I QT and treat, or even just QT I will avoid illness. If so I will QT everything. If not, I will stay with the method I have used for 35 years. Try to purchase healthy fish if able, reduce the stress and allow them to acclimate to the environment and feed, feed, feed.

THIS ^^^

The prophylactic method of treating for anything and everything with Copper, CP, Formalin, Antibiotics, Prazi, Metro, etc to me seems overkill. I would think it would cause the immune system to be weakened at the very least, to possibly being severely damaged for life.

I like your analogy to being sick... to take it even further its like if I hear a friend is getting sick so I suggest he go on chemotherapy, an array of antibiotics, appendix surgery, pulling their wisdom teeth, etc. I agree with your point on this 100%. In his book, "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist," Bob Fenner doesn’t advise prophylactic treatment with meds. He prefers observation and then disease specific treatment.

Honestly, at this point, I'm not even sure what the proper way to QT is. Recent experience has shown that 1.75ppm may not longer be proper. When do we treat with antibiotics? It used to be that you would do that later in the treatment but then fish deaths due to Uronema have driven us to using Metroplex earlier in the process. The people who I feel are the most experienced and well qualified at performing prophylactic QT have all had substantial fish deaths recently. The goal post on how to get sensitive fish through QT is constantly moving. I have no idea how to define a proper QT process outside of a healthy fish coming through the back end.

I personally believe this leaves us with a few options and things to consider. We basically have 3 possibilities on what people are willing to do with their fish, corals, inverts, etc. For the purpose of my post, I'm going to focus on fish though...

Option 1.
No QT, no observation, no dip, just straight in the tank after acclimation (float for temp, drip, etc). Requires little to no talk for this current topic, but is a common practice among many hobbyists. It's what I did for my first several years of fish keeping.

Option 2.
Dip before going into the tank. Dip in either fresh water, a methylene blue, formalin, Rally, Hydroplex, Safety Stop, etc.

-What method is most effective?
-What method is most reliable?
-Are they effective at all and worth?
-Is it worth the added stress?
-Is this something worth investing more time and research in to find other substances that are effective?


Option 3.
QT. The option most readily accepted as the best.

To me QT should really be broken down into 4 separate possibilities as well.



QT Option 1.
Observation only QT. Treatments are only done as needed. Treatments end up being disease specific, and most likely one of the 3 below.

QT Option 2.
Prophylactically treating everything in QT WITH ZERO MEDS, regardless of if they appear healthy or not with. Prophylactic Treatment can be either immediate or after a short resting period.

TTM, and Fresh Water Dips/baths are the only options that come to mind for me. This is all based on the premise of outrunning the parasites known life cycles, and killing/harming them with the fresh water dips. If Transfers are done every 24-46 hours along with fresh water dips every 2-3 days (when transfering anyway) then this should theoretically work for Ich, Velvet, and most likely also Flukes, Brook, and Black Ich.

If Uronema marinum, Fungi, bacteria, other protozoa, Flukes, Internal parasites, and/or intestinal worms become an issue then the usage of meds such as those listed in QT Option 3 and QT Option 4 become needed.


The only other method I can think of that might work with this and would probably be good to use in combo would be siphoning the bottom via daily water changes. Anthony Calfo mentions this in his "Book of Coral Propagation."

Also in a conversation I recently had with him about this and a variation of TTM that I came up with using Daily Transfers and multiple dips and baths to cover basically every pest I could imagine (Basically QT Option 3). He said the following:

Anthony Calfo: "The best way to quarantine a fish without using harsh chemicals and preventing it velvet and numerous other pest organisms is to Simply Siphon the bottom of the bear glass quarantine tank everyday for 8 consecutive days. That will break the life cycle of a long list of organisms. Very little water has to be removed. It's not about the water of course. It's about what has fallen to the bottom of the glass floor and is microscopic. A small siphon snaked across the bottom pulling just a gallon or three per day is stunningly effective. I learned that almost 40 years ago from a freshwater fish breeder who insisted that certain chemicals put some species of fishes off their breeding cycle. So obvious have been trying to avoid using chemicals of course for a long time. In my experience it is extremely extremely effective.

I am saying a quiet calm QT tank (A low to medium flow quiet quarantine tank. That allows larval parasitic organisms to sink and concentrate in that vector of the tank floor for easy extraction.) where tomites and other larval pests drop to the bottom of the glass every day gets siphoned systematically (slow but systematic siphoning of the entire floor) removes the overwhelming majority of pests and gets pathogen numbers down to the low natural levels (like in the wild) that a fish's natural immunity can fend off the rest. Just a daily siphon for 8+ days. QT still needs to be 2 weeks bare minimum to see if other illnesses (viruses, bacterial infections) get expressed. IMO 4 weeks is the true bare minimum for QT.

Siphoning alone is more then adequate. Remember, you're not trying to get every single parasitic organism. You couldn't. You can't sterilize the tank, you can sterilize the fish, there will always be Remnant populations of pathogens. Your goal is to just get the numbers down so low that the natural immunity of your fishes fends off the rest.

That said, fastidious and compulsive people or fans of diatom filtering have dabbled with all sorts of modifications addressing the issue in your question. Without covering all them, other than saying the extra effort is beyond the point of diminishing returns, if it makes you feel better I have no problem with it. It could be as low-tech as cable tying a toothbrush or the like to the tip end of the siphon. Slightly forward. Use any other better idea, brush, algae scraper Etc that you can think of to scrape just in front of a running siphon. That's not a lot of effort and you will capture more organisms. But again, just a thorough siphoning of the bottom each day for 8 or more days is massively effective. Anything you do beyond that you have to justify. For personal use great. But in for-profit profit endeavors, it's not worth it."



QT Option 3.
Prophylactically treating everything in QT WITH Non-Toxic/Mild MEDS and other remedies, regardless of if they appear healthy or not with. Prophylactic Treatment can be either immediate or after a short resting period.

TTM, and Fresh Water Dips/baths with the use of Methylene Blue, Antiseptics like Acriflavine (such as Ruby Reef Rally), Methylene Blue, Probiotics, and Vitamins/Herbal Remedies are options that come to mind. Again, is all based on the premise of outrunning the parasites known life cycles, and killing/harming them with the fresh water dips and/or mild meds and other remedies. If Transfers are done every 24-46 hours along with fresh water and/or medicated dips/baths every 2-3 days (when transfering anyway) then this should theoretically work for Ich, Velvet, and most likely also Flukes, Brooklynella, and Black Ich.

The mild meds such as Acriflavine (Rally), and Methylene Blue would help work against those 5 parasites plus some other issues like Fungi, bacteria, other protozoa, and possibly helping for Uronema marinum.

If Flukes, Internal parasites, bacterial issues, and/or intestinal worms become an issue then the usage of Metro, Prazi, and Antibiotics become an option for treatment. This is obviously a last resort option.


QT Option 4.
Prophylactically treating everything in QT WITH TOXIC MEDS, regardless of if they appear healthy or not with. Prophylactic Treatment can be either immediate or after a short resting period.

Copper, CP, Praziquantel, Metronidazole, Formalin, Acriflavine (Rally), Methylene Blue, etc and with this I'll even include AntiBiotics are used in some combo prophylactically and done to ensure totaly elimination of any/all parasites and diseases.

This option does have the potential issues mentioned so far in this thread, such as damaged immune system, possible disease resistance to meds, and potential others.

To me, QT Option 4 is what is currently used and most often suggested.

Well right now my main display is completely free of those four parasites that I listed as far as I know and that's the result of a preventative treatment quarantine system specifically geared to eliminate those four parasites. I've had multiple stressing events happen including power outages, over-aggressive new additions, Etc that I think would have caused any number of outbreaks had they been present over the years, and I've dealt with bacterial infections before as well albeit not as a result of my preventative treatment typically the fish just came in with one already present from Shipping stress , truthfully I've never worried much about bacterial infections just because most of the time when I've dealt with them they've been limited to the fish that's infected I've never once had them spread even to other fish in the same quarantine tank but maybe I'm just lucky. So the conclusion that I've reached years ago and still hold to is keeping those parasites out of your system is good enough I have no need for a sterile aquarium and my opinion on that is never going to change primarily because I doubt if that's even possible in a home environment. But keeping out the four biggest infectious killers of fish saltwater home aquarium that's entirely possible and well worth the time and effort to do and well worth the rewards that you get from it which is a happy healthy tank and fish that live much longer than they would have in the wild statistically anyway.

I agree, going for a truly sterile aquarium is unrealistic, and probably not the goal of 99% of reefers. However going for an aquarium that is free from Ich, Velvet, Brook, Flukes, and Black Ich is a reasonable goal and a good idea that will allow inhabitants that we want to live, a chance to thrive.

 

[HomeSlizzice]

For those that might be curious here are the rough quotes and some paraphrasing from my conversation with Anthony, and also some info I pulled from Steven Pro in his article on Marine Ich...

In a conversation I recently had with him about this and a variation of TTM that I came up with with Daily Transfers and multiple dips and baths to cover basically ever pest I could imagine. He said the following:

Anthony Calfo: "The best way to quarantine a fish without using harsh chemicals and preventing it velvet and numerous other pest organisms is to Simply Siphon the bottom of the bear glass quarantine tank everyday for 8 consecutive days. That will break the life cycle of a long list of organisms. Very little water has to be removed. It's not about the water of course. It's about what has fallen to the bottom of the glass floor and is microscopic. A small siphon snaked across the bottom pulling just a gallon or three per day is stunningly effective. I learned that almost 40 years ago from a freshwater fish breeder who insisted that certain chemicals put some species of fishes off their breeding cycle. So obvious have been trying to avoid using chemicals of course for a long time. In my experience it is extremely extremely effective.

I am saying a quiet calm QT tank (A low to medium flow quiet quarantine tank. That allows larval parasitic organisms to sink and concentrate in that vector of the tank floor for easy extraction.) where tomites and other larval pests drop to the bottom of the glass every day gets siphoned systematically (slow but systematic siphoning of the entire floor) removes the overwhelming majority of pests and gets pathogen numbers down to the low natural levels (like in the wild) that a fish's natural immunity can fend off the rest. Just a daily siphon for 8+ days. QT still needs to be 2 weeks bare minimum to see if other illnesses (viruses, bacterial infections) get expressed. IMO 4 weeks is the true bare minimum for QT."


Me: "Ok, so it’s essentially performing the same function of the Tank Transfer Method, but in a more mild (but possibly less effective) method. After that, normal meds and observation for other parasites/diseases (like flukes) is done."


Anthony Calfo: "EXACTLY my friend...as I said, I don't disagree with your method at all. I'm just suggesting the reverse to minimize stress to the weakened animal. Arguably, a "healthy" new arrival (granted all are like us, not sterile...carrying pathogens but not at pathogenic levels) can be induced to get sick by the repetitive (daily) stress of being "attacked" (it's view as you run it down to catch it) every day(!). If you leave the fish in holding and instead focus on the vector where the pets really are (the floor) it will be better overall.


Me: "I really like the siphoning idea. It’s pretty cool to me. Do I need to worry about the side walls at all? Or the PVC tubings used for cover? I could also see these two methods being combined in some way. Do you have a filter or any bio media in the tank to prevent an ammonia spike?


Anthony Calfo: "Excellent questions my friend..no, you don't have to worry about the other surfaces. Sure, on one hand nothing is sterile and anything in that tank can technically transmit a pathogen. But irrational worries aside...the concentrated vectors are the mucous on the fish, sediments (colloidal and "sticky" you could say) and the floor itself since most of these pests we are targeting are not motile at first before they evolve in metamorphosis. The risk from the water column and the upper surfaces (walls, pvc etc) is extremely small. Yes...a hybrid system as you suggested would probably be great."


Me: "Do you mind if I share this info and mention you by name? Do you have any links to the fishery studies you mentioned previously?"


Anthony Calfo: "Please share away! Always. I'm not sure how fast I could find links for you though. They were in Fisheries studies. Small and large-scale operations have been using the strategy for many many decades. They basically do it two different ways. The first way is like we have been discussing. And probably, that is the appropriate way for home tropical fishes. Which is to say, a low to medium flow quiet quarantine tank. That allows larval parasitic organisms to sink and concentrate in that vector of the tank floor for easy extraction.

The alternate way for larger operations is high-flow of course. And with large concentrations of fish is even in large volumes of water they need high flow to maintain oxygenation obviously. As you would expect, manually siphoning a large system would be labor-intensive no matter how cheap the labor is. So, what those folks do is employee extremely aggressive Micron filtration. There is a sector of aquarium hobbyist that use this strategy to accomplish what you and I have been talking about here. They take a small quarantine tank, whatever is appropriate for the size of the fish being isolated of course. And they produce high flow to keep the pests in suspension and trapped in a micron filter. Usually 1 micron. If the filter media or filter bags are as coarse as 5 micron you run the risk of not successfully getting maximum pests out of the system. The old school way was to use diatomaceous earth with a pleated cartridge and of course that's been modified by hobbyist for many decades use Vortex brand filters, homemade filters, swimming pool filters, etc etc. I have absolutely no qualms with that strategy presuming the species that your quarantining is tolerant of the high-flow. For hobbyists that are too busy or too lazy to do water changes this is a good solution. And for systems with very large fishes or very large numbers of fishes, it's a necessary solution when, again, manually siphoning the floor is just not practical.


Me: "Hey I have a questions about the siphon water change method for quarantine... do you need to scrape the bottom with a blade or something first? I know that the Ich tomonts begin to encyst, so do they still get siphoned out easily without scraping?"


Anthony Calfo: "Siphoning alone is more then adequate. Remember, you're not trying to get every single parasitic organism. You couldn't. You can't sterilize the tank, you can sterilize the fish, there will always be Remnant populations of pathogens. Your goal is to just get the numbers down so low that the natural immunity of your fishes fends off the rest.

That said, fastidious and compulsive people or fans of diatom filtering have dabbled with all sorts of modifications addressing the issue in your question. Without covering all them, other than saying the extra effort is beyond the point of diminishing returns, if it makes you feel better I have no problem with it. It could be as low-tech as cable tying a toothbrush or the like to the tip end of the siphon. Slightly forward. Use any other better idea, brush, algae scraper Etc that you can think of to scrape just in front of a running psiphon. That's not a lot of effort and you will capture more organisms. But again, just a thorough siphoning of the bottom each day for 8 or more days is massively effective. Anything you do beyond that you have to justify. For personal use great. But in for-profit profit endeavors, it's not worth it."



Steven Pro info:

Also here is when Steven Pro mentioned this in his article back in 2003. He also uses Anthony Calfo as a reference. Look at what he says for Treatment Option 5 - Daily Water Changes. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

"Treatment Option 5 - Daily Water Changes:

John Walsh related this method in a presentation given to the Pittsburgh Marine Aquarium Society, Inc. It is safe and effective for all marine fish (Colorni, 1985) and is my preferred first course of action. Fish are put into a quarantine/hospital tank and then everyday for two weeks the tank is completely cleaned and a 50% water change is performed. While the size of this water change may concern some aquarists who are not accustomed to water changes of this magnitude, as long as you are careful about matching the temperature and salinity, you should not experience any problems. This method helps to remove the tomites, tomonts, and theronts from the tank and lessens the chance of reinfection. The fish should remain in quarantine for an additional month to ensure the treatment has worked and to allow them time to gain strength.

This method is best used as a preventative when a fish is first acquired. It is also useful for mild infestations or when other more aggressive treatments cannot be used due to species sensitivity. The best thing about this kind of treatment is it is safe for all fishes and invertebrates. One of the other benefits is the daily water changes should help you maintain optimum water quality and therefore should stimulate the fish's immune system to combat any secondary bacterial infections that might be attacking the vulnerable areas where the Cryptocaryon irritans parasites have burrowed into the skin. This is in contrast to copper or Formalin, which are both immunosuppressive, and may actually promote secondary infection.

Variations of this method (and the likely source for the original idea for the treatment) have been suggested and used successfully by Colorni (Colorni, 1987 and Colorni & Burgess, 1997). They involve moving the infected fish between two tanks with the tanks being cleaned and dried in between uses or removing a sand substrate and replacing with new sand every three days. I don't like the idea of handling a sick fish that much using the tank transfer method. While fishnets are designed to be soft and supple, it can still be dragged across the fish's eye. I have found the more you have to manipulate a fish, the more likely it is to contract a secondary bacterial infection like pop-eye or cloudy eyes. The substrate removal method is interesting. The sand is supposed to be an ideal media for attracting the encysting parasites. Removing the sand every three days removes the tomonts with it. Utilizing aragonite sand for this purpose is expensive (unless you happen to live somewhere that Southdown sand is readily available) and very messy. Silica sand is widely available, cheap, and will create slightly less cloudy water, but it is still not as clean and easy as the water change method. I have found the water change protocol to be just as effective and considerably more practical than either of Colorni's methods.

Hopefully, I have provided information about some of the biological characteristics of this parasite and clear instructions on the most common cures. In the second part of this series, I hope to discuss some of the newer and/or more experimental treatments that have been proposed or recently appeared in the aquarium marketplace. Please keep in mind the life cycle and accepted cures for this disease in the context of discussing the second group of treatments in part two of this series. In many cases it is difficult to separate an allegedly observed "cure" from simple variations in individuals' natural immunity."

 

[Lasse]

What reactions do you mean? If you have links to specific threads I would be interested to read them...

There is a lot in all threads about oxidators.

PaulB is like the poster child for disease management, but there are so many components to his system that work together to make it work as well as it does. I'm not sure that someone could just pick one or two pieces and still have the same success. My fear is when someone new to saltwater sees comments like "feed your fish well, feed them live brine and clam, and then they won't get sick" and then next thing you know, they are wailing for help in the disease forum because their 3-month old tank that has 15 fish is crashing... "But, I was feeding them live brine??"

You are right that there is multiple factors involved - therefore it is very important to have a discussion why his system works, @atoll :s system works, @najer :s system work, @Paul B :s system works, mine system work, the system at the marin aquarium in Gothenburg works. All of these system (and thousands more) has one thing in common – biological stability and diversity. There is different technical solutions, different in every solution, that works with the biology but ecological principles dominate. If chemical is in use – like peroxide – it is normally biological accepted chemicals. And this system is safe if something happens because you can always pick up the sledge hammer from the closet. You haven’t overused that method already from the beginning. IMO – to give a newcomer the sledge hammer in the first place – it is a well-meaning service that gets devastating, or at least negative, consequences for the recipient. We call it give a “Björntjänst” in Swedish (Give anyone a bear service direct translated)

@Cyricdark
Fine story but on the other hand - in hundreds of SW aquarium that I have be involved in without any chemoprophylactic method at all – the same events have happened – and the same result – no disease. Not speak about thousands of FW aquaria during my life time. If you want me to accept your story – accept mine and just not call it luck. There have been a lot of “animal concern” issues arisen in favour for the chemoprophylactic method – this issue is the most important for me when I try to defeat this theory. Chemoprophylactic treatments are cruel to our fishes (and other livestock) and give them more suffering than necessary IMO. It is a shortcut the aquarist takes in order to not fix the basically issues in the system IMO

If anyone does not believe that the now most advocated treatment protocol will lead to more medicines (and type of medicines) in order to solve problems that arise during time just need to see how the actual protocol has developed during the last 10 years. You will end up with a “sterile” theory

If you look at the picture of many of the 'immune tanks' - you will see few fish and many other things (at least the ones that I have seen). Maybe im mis-speaking here - but - low stocking density seems to play a role...?

In a way - my aquaria contradict that - over 40 fishes in 90 gallon but I am a low feeder and I have small fish chosen with a lot of concern.

@HomeSlizzice + 1 000 000 Thank you for these two posts

Sincerely Lasse