40G First Time Cycling

[Soren]

Thank you and the others for clarification. So If I am using primarily LR (may use a little dry rock to complete aquascape) should I still “dark cure” as BRS says, for 4 weeks? As in not turn on any lights.

I would certainly not "dark cure" if the rock has any desired growth of life forms on it, such as macroalgae/coralline algae/corals/sponges/etc. as most need light to survive. This is part of the reason to get live rock to begin with, at least as far as I see it.

If you only want bacteria from the live rock purchase, "dark cure" might be a consideration, but still seems unnecessary to me if you are getting the live rock directly from your LFS, as it is not being shipped to you and should not have significant die-off.

 

[brandon429]

A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

I'm at river city Aquatics in Austin rn Now this is skip cycle live rock If kept wet in saltwater it will not: Starve Get uncycled Fail to skip cycle Cause a mini cycle See all the coralline The bottom of the tank has pods and micro brittle stars, all healthy proof of being cycled with no...

www.reef2reef.com

you'll want to study that thread, we don't use bottle bac with live rock it helps 0%

 

[brandon429]

also applies to your plan:

ANY cured rock from a pet store can sit in the air two hours on your counter and not have dieoff, and not lose cycling bacteria.

you should not glue this scape

you should rod it/drilled holes in the rock and pvc pipes to prop up the stack, anticipate having to remove sections of the rock for external guiding/don't think you can set it in your tank and never touch it externally again/recipe for invasion loss. be modular, accessible, not fixed and glued. predictions for the win

 

[mjw011689]

Okay, soap box time:

Cycling never stops. As long as there is life in the tank, the bacteria will continue absorbing compounds and excreting others. The same goes with fish, corals, critters big and small. What most people call “The Cycle” is only the very beginning of a living, ongoing process. Once it’s been established “enough” then it can support the excretions of higher volume, say those of a fish, then it rebalances to that. The ugly phase of a tank occurs because all these organisms haven’t established the balance point yet and so you get boom and bust as one population takes advantage of the situation before being checked by something else.

This is not something to fight, it’s going to happen. Just watch your levels and do water changes as needed.

Soap box over.

Agreed, Which is why I liked the older term “cured” live rock, which I don’t see used very often any more. Curing it implies you saw your ammonia spike, followed by nitrites, and both back to zero so you KNOW it’s ready.

keep in mind if you do get fully cured/cycled live rock, regardless of the source, there may be some die off during transportation. So you definitely still want to check for spikes. This is the main reason I personably like to dose some sort of ammonia, so I can know that it came back down. If you never saw a spike, it could be cured, it could be pre-cycle. Won’t know till you add fish and I don’t like to find out the hard way.

 

[brandon429]

there is no dieoff from pet store live rocks moved to home, it's how we're at 25+ examples with no losses. it does not happen. it happens only with ocean rocks. dieoff does not happen with pet store live rock transfers, that's a concept propped up solely by old cycling science and api test kits.

cured cycle transfers are what run all reef conventions, and 100% of the sellers make it to the start date fully ready to reef in fifty thousand dollar display tanks 100% of the time, not 99%

there are no convention sellers who miss a day due to a mini cycle, that's a concept only for the buyers/key sales gradient at work. cured rock is so tough it wouldn't mini cycle if you set it on your counter for three hours then submerged it.

**this is important to know not just for post dueling but for reef tank design and tank moves, cleaning etc.

 

[JFinlay]

also applies to your plan:

ANY cured rock from a pet store can sit in the air two hours on your counter and not have dieoff, and not lose cycling bacteria.

you should not glue this scape

you should rod it/drilled holes in the rock and pvc pipes to prop up the stack, anticipate having to remove sections of the rock for external guiding/don't think you can set it in your tank and never touch it externally again/recipe for invasion loss. be modular, accessible, not fixed and glued. predictions for the win

Thank you for this! I’ve seen PVC pipes in tanks before, but had no clue what their use was. As long as the few pieces of equipment I purchased from Amazon shows up on time today I will be purchasing the LR etc to begin. Excited to update you all with pics to see what you think of the LR/aquascape etc!

 

[JFinlay]

A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

I'm at river city Aquatics in Austin rn Now this is skip cycle live rock If kept wet in saltwater it will not: Starve Get uncycled Fail to skip cycle Cause a mini cycle See all the coralline The bottom of the tank has pods and micro brittle stars, all healthy proof of being cycled with no...

www.reef2reef.com

you'll want to study that thread, we don't use bottle bac with live rock it helps 0%

this thread is very interesting. I’ve read/watched so much, but have never heard of “skip cycling” so basically just by adding actual quality LR, and nothing else, it should be good? Should I still do a one week 10% water change and check parameters before adding anything?

 

[JFinlay]

there is no dieoff from pet store live rocks moved to home, it's how we're at 25+ examples with no losses. it does not happen. it happens only with ocean rocks. dieoff does not happen with pet store live rock transfers, that's a concept propped up solely by old cycling science and api test kits.

cured cycle transfers are what run all reef conventions, and 100% of the sellers make it to the start date fully ready to reef in fifty thousand dollar display tanks 100% of the time, not 99%

there are no convention sellers who miss a day due to a mini cycle, that's a concept only for the buyers/key sales gradient at work. cured rock is so tough it wouldn't mini cycle if you set it on your counter for three hours then submerged it.

**this is important to know not just for post dueling but for reef tank design and tank moves, cleaning etc.

Why do API test kits seem to be the most frowned upon? I understand they’re not a Hanna checker, but I don’t want to spend hundreds on testers. Do they actually read inaccurately or are they just hard to read correctly?

 

[XtraKargo]

Why do API test kits seem to be the most frowned upon? I understand they’re not a Hanna checker, but I don’t want to spend hundreds on testers. Do they actually read inaccurately or are they just hard to read correctly?

For starting out they're fine. But when you really want to get things figured out for the long run there are more accurate tests. KH for instance I had a big discrepancy between API and Salifert. But I started with the API tests with minimal loss.

 

[Powahfull]

I would certainly not "dark cure" if the rock has any desired growth of life forms on it, such as macroalgae/coralline algae/corals/sponges/etc. as most need light to survive. This is part of the reason to get live rock to begin with, at least as far as I see it.

If you only want bacteria from the live rock purchase, "dark cure" might be a consideration, but still seems unnecessary to me if you are getting the live rock directly from your LFS, as it is not being shipped to you and should not have significant die-off.

That's the biggest part "live" rock is such a standardized term. I don't trust any LFS ever. I believe his path of doing it himself is the correct way yes he's setting himself back what 3 weeks but this isn't a weekly game.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Why do API test kits seem to be the most frowned upon? I understand they’re not a Hanna checker, but I don’t want to spend hundreds on testers. Do they actually read inaccurately or are they just hard to read correctly?

API kits are inexpensive but have very low resolution. When using the ammonia test, the difference between 0 and .25 ppm (or even higher ) is often not easily identifiable. However, with that understanding, they are fine for monitoring ammonia when initially establishing a tank using the high ammonia levels attributable to fishless cycles. It'll work for establishing the tank with live rock with lower ammonia levels of ammonia also. You just need to understand that when the test says you have .25 ppm (slightly yellow-green), it is probably really 0 (Yellow) or at least something lower, which is safe. If I were starting a 40 with an appropriate amount of real live rock, I wouldn't even test for ammonia. I'd add the rock, wait a week, add a couple of small fish, feed very lightly for a week, then increase feeding... and repeat.

I would suggest something better for monitoring nitrate, maybe Salifert, and phosphate, like a Hanna ULR, in the future though.

 

[JFinlay]

API kits are inexpensive but have very low resolution. When using the ammonia test, the difference between 0 and .25 ppm (or even higher ) is often not easily identifiable. However, with that understanding, they are fine for monitoring ammonia when initially establishing a tank using the high ammonia levels attributable to fishless cycles. It'll work for establishing the tank with live rock with lower ammonia levels of ammonia also. You just need to understand that when the test says you have .25 ppm (slightly yellow-green), it is probably really 0 (Yellow) or at least something lower, which is safe. If I were starting a 40 with an appropriate amount of real live rock, I wouldn't even test for ammonia. I'd add the rock, wait a week, add a couple of small fish, feed very lightly for a week, then increase feeding... and repeat.

I would suggest something better for monitoring nitrate, maybe Salifert, and phosphate, like a Hanna ULR, in the future though.

Great to know, thank you. I feel like I have such a better understanding already. Much more controlled on my own thread rather than bouncing around different ones.
I’m starting with a tidal 75 HOB filter. Am I good to let that run as normal or should I take out any media/filtration?
Hoping my flow is enough too, just received my packages from Amazon and these Hygger/Jebao powerheads are tiny
150W Eheim Jager heater.

 

[brandon429]

I do testless cycling for years here, we wouldn't need any test kit to cycle any tank on this site using any arrangement by a predetermined date. That means we wouldn't need seneye or salifert or api or any of them

Like sellers at a reef convention we already know how long it takes to prepare any mode of cycling someone wants to run. =new cycling science

Judging what color means safe ammonia levels is what makes using them so tricky. Do testless cycling for the easy win

100% of that reference thread for skip cycle live rocks was testless cycling. they're skip cycle live rocks because they can't fail and require testing.
for dry rock starts where testing is really common, we simply use predetermined # of wait days Dr. Reef already discerned in his bottle bac comparison thread factored alongside how long any common cycling chart shows it takes to gain basic ammonia command in common setups (10 days)

all those pet store rocks had coralline + animals and plants anchored to them, pigments associated with age, so by that visual alone we knew they'd been in the water long past ten days.

 

[Soren]

I do testless cycling for years here, we wouldn't need any test kit to cycle any tank on this site using any arrangement by a predetermined date. That means we wouldn't need seneye or salifert or api or any of them

Like sellers at a reef convention we already know how long it takes to prepare any mode of cycling someone wants to run. =new cycling science

Judging what color means safe ammonia levels is what makes using them so tricky. Do testless cycling for the easy win

...but this means you are going at it completely blind to what is actually happening in your tank and devoid of enough effort to try to understand what is actually going on. Understanding is limited to just the observable big-picture concepts such as "my fish lived" or "my fish died" with no understanding about why.

This seems like very bad advice to give to someone new to the experiences of this hobby. Maybe it works for you with your experience level, but advising a lack of understanding rather than helping with the education is just completely the wrong answer, in my opinion.

Absolutes determined from anecdotes only (rather than testable hypothesis or recorded experiments with a proper setup) seem to be dangerous beginner advice.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Great to know, thank you. I feel like I have such a better understanding already. Much more controlled on my own thread rather than bouncing around different ones.
I’m starting with a tidal 75 HOB filter. Am I good to let that run as normal or should I take out any media/filtration?
Hoping my flow is enough too, just received my packages from Amazon and these Hygger/Jebao powerheads are tiny
150W Eheim Jager heater.

I know a lot of people who use just live rock and a power filter, particularly for soft coral tanks. You can leave everything in the power filter for now. I want to point out here that you need to start with as much live rock as you can afford. Lighter rock is better. If possible get the LFS to let you pick up and compare the weight of pieces and select for lightness. I'd want to start with at least 30 lbs. for your tank... 40 would be better. Dicker a little if you are going to buy a bunch. Don't be tempted to mix in dry rock. It just provides space for uglies to get a foothold.

You can worry about flow later. For now just get all the pumps you have running. Get the water in the tank, get the temperature salinity stable, set up the lights, and then add the rock. In a 40, I would just stick the rock together with two part epoxy. It cures under water. It is not permanent. You can pull it apart if needed. BUT... it will keep the rock from avalanching.

 

[Soren]

That's the biggest part "live" rock is such a standardized term. I don't trust any LFS ever. I believe his path of doing it himself is the correct way yes he's setting himself back what 3 weeks but this isn't a weekly game.

Yes, the exact live rock in the particular case does matter. Can you elaborate on what it is you do not trust in any LFS? My advice stands on two main points:
If only nitrifying bacteria is desired from the purchase of the LFS live rock, a dark cure is an acceptable (maybe preferential) route.
If there are macro-life forms on the LFS live rock that are desired in the purchase of that rock, then dark cure will potentially kill/hinder those life forms, so would not be recommended.

 

[srobertb]

also applies to your plan:

ANY cured rock from a pet store can sit in the air two hours on your counter and not have dieoff, and not lose cycling bacteria.

you should not glue this scape

you should rod it/drilled holes in the rock and pvc pipes to prop up the stack, anticipate having to remove sections of the rock for external guiding/don't think you can set it in your tank and never touch it externally again/recipe for invasion loss. be modular, accessible, not fixed and glued. predictions for the win

Yeah. +1 to this. As someone who had an emergency tank leak a few months ago I regret E-Marco’ng my rock in the tank. Thank god it was rimless or I’d have been using a hammer drill to break it apart in my tank. Was still no fun removing 80lb chunks of hydraulically cemented rock from the tank. Acrylic rods are cheap. Get the pieces together how you like. Use the rod as dowels, then use some aqua putty (which will just pull off if need be) to tack stuff down.

 

[brandon429]

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

@Brandon thanks for all the contributions you make on this forum. I’m not sure if you even want this data since I don’t have a Seneye but I cycled with Wet sand, dry rock, Tim’s one and only with ammonia drops. After 3 days my ammonia climbed to 1.5 ppm (API and Salifert) and then by day 6 was...

www.reef2reef.com

there comes a point where anecdote becomes science by raw pattern. that's an example above, that anyone's cycle is ready by day ten even if their api says otherwise (those are dry start cycles, not the easy live rock ones)

it's not possible to luck into that many cycled reefs by guessing or by bad science.

that being said, I think anyone including us who buck conventional rules should be vetted mercilessly. all I can do is keep pumping out working tanks for more years, until the pattern wins over and gets accepted or denied by the practicing masses. let the record reflect: in 2001 they told me pico reefs were just anecdote and could not be repeated by anyone

 

[Soren]

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

@Brandon thanks for all the contributions you make on this forum. I’m not sure if you even want this data since I don’t have a Seneye but I cycled with Wet sand, dry rock, Tim’s one and only with ammonia drops. After 3 days my ammonia climbed to 1.5 ppm (API and Salifert) and then by day 6 was...

www.reef2reef.com

there comes a point where anecdote becomes science by raw pattern. that's an example above, that anyone's cycle is ready by day ten even if their api says otherwise (those are dry start cycles, not the easy live rock ones)

it's not possible to luck into that many cycled reefs by guessing or by bad science.

that being said, I think anyone including us who buck conventional rules should be vetted mercilessly. all I can do is keep pumping out working tanks for more years, until the pattern wins over and gets accepted or denied by the practicing masses. let the record reflect: in 2001 they told me pico reefs were just anecdote and could not be repeated by anyone

Alright, I'll try once more to address this with you:
Anecdote NEVER becomes science by definition, as anecdotes are stories of personal experience without corroborating evidence. The pattern observed through your threads are actually results from uncontrolled experiments.

I agree that it is not luck if they succeed, but for it to be science, you need controlled experiments with a testable hypothesis and limited variables. There are too many variables in the broader question to narrow down which are directly applicable in the question.

Whoever stated that "pico reefs were just anecdote and could not be repeated by anyone" was also being foolish with such an absolute statement.
Instead, try to set up a controlled experiment with stated hypothesis and limited, testable variables, and maybe a more specific conclusion can be drawn. That is what the scientific method is.

If the discussion is about the effectiveness of API tests specifically, set up the experiment, show your results, and draw your conclusion.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Here's an excerpt from an article I'm writing. I thought it might help.

Live Base Rock and Live Sand
Quality Live Rock and Live Sand are the heart of our system. They provide an environment and many of the organisms needed for the food web and nutrient processing pathways to function properly.

The majority of the cool looking life on “premium” live rock like colonial corals, sponges, bivalves, gorgonians, and tube worms will probably not survive in a new tank. The life that is likely to survive and are important to your future reef tank are things like coralline algae, cryptic sponges, bacteria, and small critters. Populations of that life are present in and on less expensive “base” live rock. That is what I would order in this phase.

For this process, the live rock and live sand desired is cultured in the ocean, not a tank. It is provided by reputable suppliers that culture rock in pristine parts of the ocean, harvest it, care for it properly, and ship it directly to you, over-night. The life in ocean cultivated live rock and sand is an important characteristic not available from rock cultivated in a tank. It is held and shipped in water, not in wet paper.

Be careful buying Live rock and sand from a tank at the LFS. Make sure it is truely live rock that was originally cultured in the ocean rather than dry rock that has just bee kept in water to establish some bacteria. This rock may have some life in and on it, but it will may not be as diverse as ocean cultured live rock that is shipped to you direct. It may also suffer from the as many pests as ocean cultured live rock with the added disadvantages of the unwanted Cyanobacteria, Dinoflagellates, and microalgae that tend to come with it.

Due diligence is required when buying live rock and sand. Researching and talking to suppliers is absolutely necessary. This is the most expensive and most important purchase you’ll make. Don’t skimp, but make sure you get your money’s worth. Shop around. Some suppliers provide lighter rock than others. All other things being equal, “Lightness” is a valuable characteristic. Not only does it indicate more desirable porosity, but it means you will receive a greater volume for your money. Some suppliers will also negotiate prices if you contact them directly.

Live Rock Expectations
Today’s manmade live rock is much denser than the more porous rock we got back in the good ole days. If you were around back then, lower your expectations for the volume of rock you will receive. Order about 1 lb. per gallon of “Base” live rock and 1 lb. of live sand per gallon. More rock, up to two a total of pounds per gallon, is good. Make sure all is shipped water. Remember, this it is the life blood of your future system. It will replace all the expensive equipment we might otherwise have to buy to reduce nutrients and to prevent or combat the problems that would be encountered if trying to establish a reef tank without the live rock. I firmly believe that every dollar spent on live rock & live sand saves two or more during the life of the tank.

Let’s talk about the bacteria
We hear a lot about the nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria that are responsible for the nitrogen cycle and the process for establishing them in a new reef tank. You’ll see lots of discussion about “Cycling a tank”. We will not need to worry about this process. What is important to emphasize here, is that the live rock will contain more than a sufficient quantity of these bacteria to manage the ammonia produced as we add life to the system as instructed. No additional bacteria or ammonia additives are necessary for the growth of this bacteria. This type of bacteria is called autotrophic bacteria. In simplistic terms, it can derive food from CO2 and the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate we are trying to get rid of. This is important… DO NOT ADD AMMONIA before of after the rock is added. There is no need to “Cycle” the tank prior to adding the rock.

There is another type of beneficial bacteria at work in our system. These are heterotrophic bacteria. These bacteria can’t derive their carbon from CO2 and must uptake organic carbon instead. These bacteria are also present in great numbers in the live rock and sand. They are partly responsible for the process that yields the dissolved and particulate organic compounds that drive many of the nutrient processing pathways and provides a thread in the food web in our systems.

Bacteria exist everywhere… yes, even the ones that colonize the rocks in the ocean. They will colonize anywhere when the conditions are right for them to grow. Some of these bacteria are beneficial. Some are destructive. They compete for the same chemical and organic compounds.

Once a particular strain of bacteria is established, it is harder for other strains of bacteria that have similar requirements to compete. LET ME REPEAT THAT… Once a particular strain of bacteria is established, it is harder for other strains of bacteria that have similar requirements to compete.

We are trying use this to our advantage. We’ll establish the bacteria we want by starting the system with live rock and sand containing large numbers of the autotrophs and heterotrophs that we want. That makes it hard for other strains we don’t want to compete and get established. Given proper care and attention, other less desirable bacteria won’t be able to compete or cause problems.

So why can’t we just seed sterile substrates like dry rock with live rock and sand? This is a popular idea that just doesn’t work as well as theorized. The bacteria present in the live rock used for seeding can’t propagate fast enough to outcompete the bacteria already present. In addition, the surfaces that are not live rock may not provide a suitable habitat for the bacteria. Nature will supply other bacteria that can survive on the bare surfaces long before the more desirable bacteria can get a foothold. That will allow for the ugly stage that we are trying to avoid.

Discouraging pest algae… The live rock and sand, along with the organisms they contain, and the biofilms that cover their surfaces, are a deterrent to pest algae also. These organisms: 1) Reduce or bind nutrients needed for algae to grow; 2) Compete for substrate on which to algae might otherwise grow; and 3) Consume the algae as it attempts to get a foothold.

You may ask what all the above gibberish means. Well… It means that starting our system with OCEAN CULTURED live rock and live sand greatly reduces the risk of prolonged periods of microalgae, Cyanobacteria and/or Dinoflagellates infestations that are commonly referred to as “THE UGLIES”. It also means we will not waste time and money battling these unwanted pests.

Prepare Live Rock and Live Sand
There is little to do to prepare these items if you ordered from a reputable supplier that ships the items in water. It is important that you make plans so you can do the preparation immediately upon receipt. Each supplier will provide instructions for preparing and acclimating the new items. Follow their instructions carefully and start the task a soon as you possibly can. I do try to pick macroalgae and plant life off of the rock. They will become pests if they don’t die off. In case the instruction do not include it, preparation should always include a bath in high salinity (1.043-44 ppt) saltwater. This causes the many of the critters hiding inside the rock to emerge. The pests can then be removed and good hitchhikers can be added to the tank. Tweezers and gloves are a good idea for this step. Swishing the rock around in the high salinity water helps also.

Aquascape the display tank with prepared live rock
The prepared live rock is the first strategic addition of life. It harbors organisms that are net nutrient users and also provides a source to populate the system with nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria.

Stop all pumps. Stack & secure the Live Rock in the display tank to aquascape to your liking. Secure it with two-part epoxy putty as you build your reef. Don’t get crazy though. Remember, this is base rock that is intended as a landing spot for future corals.

Do not mix in dry rock to enhance the aquascape. It will just provide sterile substrate that might provide a foothold for undesirable organisms.

Turn on the display tank lights. There is no need to start with high intensity lighting right now. If possible, set intensity level just high enough to encourage Coralline Algae growth in the display tank. Run the lights for about 8 hours per day for now. If possible, run only the blue portion of the lights and set the lights to ramp up and down over the time period selected. These steps will discourage microalgae growth while the tank stabilizes.

Check the live rock and sand for pests
Take some time to check out the live rock. While undesirable hitchhikers should not be a big problem, removing any you can find now is better than waiting until they reproduce and become a problem. Look at the rock at night with a red light. Identify the critters you see moving around. Remove the ones that might be harmful. There is a lot of good information on the internet to help you identify these critters, determine if they are undesirable, and how to trap, kill, or otherwise remove them. Do not use any potions or chemicals to rid the tank of creatures you find. If you can’t remove or trap them, we’ll add critters to deal with them later.

Add some hearty, nonaggressive fish
Cardinals and Dartfish are good candidates for this addition. Unless you intend to have an aggressive tank, avoid Damsels and Clownfish for now. I know, Clownfish are very desirable. You need to wait though. They are just too aggressive and territorial to be the first fish in the tank. Please note that we are not “Cycling” the tank with these fish. Ammonia will not rise when they are introduced.

So, why is ammonia not a problem at this stage?
The live rock in the system has more than enough nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria to support a fair number of nutrient producers (fish and invertebrates), but let’s keep it reasonable. One small fish per 25 gallons is about right. The goal here is to provide some ammonia input to start nutrient processing pathways. We don’t want make the ammonia input too high. That will result in excess nutrients that might encourage undesirable organisms to get a foothold.

Feed lightly and only once per day for a week or so. While I wouldn’t expect you to count them, target about 5 or 6 Mysis or Brine Shrimp for each fish per day. This provides a controlled input of ammonia to feed organisms in the live rock and spur more bacterial growth. Increase feeding after about a week. Avoid flake and pellet food for now to limit phosphate levels.