Worried about the ammonia toxicity (when you open the bag) buying fish online. need advice

[nano reef]

So I ususally buy from my LFS but she is getting crazy expensive! I saw some great memorial sales so I bought quite a few fish I a am talking dirt cheap but It still added up to 180 bucks! Not dirt cheap if they die! They only guarantee live arrival without spending an xtra 50 bucks for 5 more days! I am so regretting it now and they want to charge 20% to cancel!

Anyway, I never knew that if packed with oxygen that can cause amonia toxicity when you open the bag!

Coris wrasse requires 3 hour acclimation too! I am trying to get them to let me swap for something else because of that! Plus I read not reef safe after I purchased!

Is it possible to add Seachem prime or something? Not sure how long it takes to work. Should I acclimate faster or slower for that reason!

Also should I not drip acclimate and float instead (except for coris) I just dont want to have all these separate containers with each fish in it and afraid to put many together! I have one drip acclimator and bought some hose line that I hear you can use and tie a knot in it!

Something I just thought of The lights warm my tank to 80% so the longer I take the cooler the water will get maybe a heater for the coris especially! I'll probably cancel and take the hit if they dont let me change the coris though!

Sorry so long!

Appreciate any advise!

 

[fishywishy]

what I do when I buy fish online is float the bags for at least 15 minutes then I put all the fish in one bucket/container just to make it easier and then every 10-15 minutes I put about a cup or so (depending on how many fish you have) of tank water until the they are acclimated. It usually takes around 30 minutes to an hour, sometimes two.

Seachem doesn’t do anything for ammonia

if you are not able to cancel the wrasse I would just do the method I do but just do everything a little slower than the rest of the fish.

 

[nano reef]

I bought 10 fish though LOL. I couldnt resist 7.00 for a 2 to 3 inch yellow watchman 10 bucks for tank raised clowns! After I bought them they were down to 7 bucks. 17 bucks for carpenters flasher wrasse! ect ect If I took just one fish outthey were going to charge me shipping!

They are going into 2 to 3 different tanks though. Cant decide on putting one in frag tank because I may put my mean damsel I just caught and is living in my sump in there!

So I guess since there mostly small fish, they will be ok. Ijust dont want to risk stressing them out even more putting them together so was considering floating the bags.



I am also concerned about the water getting to cold doing a long acclimation out of tank. I read most fish dont need but about 20 minutes to 1/2 hour.

 

[Sump Crab]

Idc what recs vendors make, I always just turn off aquarium lights, float bags for a couple of minutes for the new fish to get there bearings, then dump them into a net and release into my tank. Good luck!

 

[VintageReefer]

I bought fish online twice in the last few months. A coris wrasse was one of them

I floated all the bags for 20 minutes

Dumped all bags into a 5g bucket carefully

Added large cup of tank water the bucket every 15 minutes

Added fish to display after 4 cups were added (1 hour total)

The coris wrasse hid for 2 - 3 days at first. I thought he didn’t make it. He came out ready to eat and has been out every day. He has not caused any harm in my reef.

What’s interesting is he goes to sleep on his own, around the same time, regardless of the lighting. He comes out everyday about 1 hour after the lights come on

 

[fishywishy]

I bought 10 fish though LOL. I couldnt resist 7.00 for a 2 to 3 inch yellow watchman 10 bucks for tank raised clowns! After I bought them they were down to 7 bucks. 17 bucks for carpenters flasher wrasse! ect ect If I took just one fish outthey were going to charge me shipping!

They are going into 2 to 3 different tanks though. Cant decide on putting one in frag tank because I may put my mean damsel I just caught and is living in my sump in there!

So I guess since there mostly small fish, they will be ok. Ijust dont want to risk stressing them out even more putting them together so was considering floating the bags.



I am also concerned about the water getting to cold doing a long acclimation out of tank. I read most fish dont need but about 20 minutes to 1/2 hour.

I’ve never heated the water when acclimating fish and ive done it for 2+ hours sometimes.

 

[VintageReefer]

I’ve never heated the water when acclimating fish and ive done it for 2+ hours sometimes.

I don’t heat the water either. The bags are warmed to tank temp by floating ahead of time. Then, while in the bucket the temp will gradually decline. But every 15 min I counteract that with a large cup of tank water.

I’ve also done drip methods with 2-3 drops per second over the course of 30-60 minutes and had no issues

 

[nano reef]

I guess i am overthinking it. I only had one fish delivered that was the mean damsel I have in my sump and trying to figure out wha tto do with! He came with some nudibranches I ordered and threw him in to reach the free shipping quota! It would be stupid to cancel and pay the fee plus I need fish!

I guess since all of yall seem to say I dont have to separate them I will just keep them together in 2 or 3 buckets depending on if I put one in frag tank. They are all small and my tank water is crazy warm at 80% so should be fine. Thanks very much you guys for your imput!

 

[nano reef]

I just thought of something. Arent the fish not getting oxygen when the are acclimating, or is there oxygen in my water since I have wavemakers?

Just trying to decide on the 3 hour acclimation for the coris wrasse or yellow wrasse as they call him, but pic shows a coris!

I will definitely ask Reefs4less about it!

 

[VintageReefer]

I just thought of something. Arent the fish not getting oxygen when the are acclimating, or is there oxygen in my water since I have wavemakers?

Just trying to decide on the 3 hour acclimation for the coris wrasse or yellow wrasse as they call him, but pic shows a coris!

I will definitely ask Reefs4less about it!

What you know as a coris wrasse is no longer called a coris wrasse. They were called that for years and years and then the name changed.

3 hour acclimation sounds long to me. 30 min float and 1 hour of time adding water into a bucket.

Watch out in that wrasse, they are fast and jumpers. Mine jumped to the floor attempting to pour him and his water from the bag into the bucket.

 

[GARRIGA]

Transhipper I was at would setup bins with pH under 7. I think it was 6.8 but might have been 6.5. Place fish immediately in bins then drip acclimate. All fish seemed shocked yet that worked. These days seen it where temp acclimate then drop in straight. Forgot what increase up they can tolerate in pH but I recall 0.5 therefore one could open the bag after temp acclimation and check pH quickly just to confirm. Setup bins with fresh new SW at 7.0 pH and adjust up or down slightly. Go a step further and lower acclimation bin to room temp since bags will likely better acclimate to that then tank. Unknown at what temp it will arrive at. Room has larger volume since tank only affecting portion of bag submerged. We didn't bother with alkalinity as biggest concern was getting them out of that ammonia rise as pH rose. Drip acclimate direct from tank or QT to where being transferred.

Ammonium mostly under 7 and likely the pH that bag coming in.

 

[Garf]

I've a genuine question @Jay Hemdal

Is everyone sure that ammonia toxicity is the killer in most circumstances? Is there a more likely cause, such as reduced air pressure upon bag opening, and fast water temperature increases reducing the ability of the gases to stay dissolved within the fish, ie the Benz. I know ammonia gets the blame, maybe it is just that, but the lethal toxicity data appears to point elsewhere, does it not?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I've a genuine question @Jay Hemdal

Is everyone sure that ammonia toxicity is the killer in most circumstances? Is there a more likely cause, such as reduced air pressure upon bag opening, and fast water temperature increases reducing the ability of the gases to stay dissolved within the fish, ie the Benz. I know ammonia gets the blame, maybe it is just that, but the lethal toxicity data appears to point elsewhere, does it not?

There are two issues that need to be dealt with: some shippers send fish in lower salinity water, and acclimating up to full seawater needs to be done over days (say a SG in the bag of 1.018 and a tank that’s at 1.026). The other issue is the pH/ammonia toxicity scenario - the bag pH is low, rendering the ammonia less toxic. Aeration of the bag drives off the CO2, causing the pH to rise, making the ammonia much more toxic. Here is an article I wrote on acclimation :

Acclimation Methods

Acclimating Animals to Aquariums Jay F. Hemdal c.2020 Introduction to acclimation techniques Most beginning aquarists hear that they must “acclimate” any new animals they add to their aquarium. Acclimation (sometimes termed...

www.reef2reef.com

Temperature change is less of an issue (fish tolerate immediate 10 degree F. shifts fine according to fisheries biologists.

The only issue I’ve seen with pressure is when fish are shipped by air. The cabin pressure is lower and I’ve seen that cause swim bladder issues due to over expansion.

 

[Malcontent]

CO2 toxicity is also a culprit.

 

[GARRIGA]

There are two issues that need to be dealt with: some shippers send fish in lower salinity water, and acclimating up to full seawater needs to be done over days (say a SG in the bag of 1.018 and a tank that’s at 1.026). The other issue is the pH/ammonia toxicity scenario - the bag pH is low, rendering the ammonia less toxic. Aeration of the bag drives off the CO2, causing the pH to rise, making the ammonia much more toxic. Here is an article I wrote on acclimation :

Acclimation Methods

Acclimating Animals to Aquariums Jay F. Hemdal c.2020 Introduction to acclimation techniques Most beginning aquarists hear that they must “acclimate” any new animals they add to their aquarium. Acclimation (sometimes termed...

www.reef2reef.com

Forgot about the salinity issue. Back then we were getting straight from other countries and don't think they ran anything but 1.026. Perhaps best confirm with shipper, no different than LFS and set bins at that specific gravity or slightly higher. Why I prefer selecting fish from invert tanks. One less concern.

 

[Dburr1014]

So I ususally buy from my LFS but she is getting crazy expensive! I saw some great memorial sales so I bought quite a few fish I a am talking dirt cheap but It still added up to 180 bucks! Not dirt cheap if they die! They only guarantee live arrival without spending an xtra 50 bucks for 5 more days! I am so regretting it now and they want to charge 20% to cancel!

Anyway, I never knew that if packed with oxygen that can cause amonia toxicity when you open the bag!

Coris wrasse requires 3 hour acclimation too! I am trying to get them to let me swap for something else because of that! Plus I read not reef safe after I purchased!

Is it possible to add Seachem prime or something? Not sure how long it takes to work. Should I acclimate faster or slower for that reason!

Also should I not drip acclimate and float instead (except for coris) I just dont want to have all these separate containers with each fish in it and afraid to put many together! I have one drip acclimator and bought some hose line that I hear you can use and tie a knot in it!

Something I just thought of The lights warm my tank to 80% so the longer I take the cooler the water will get maybe a heater for the coris especially! I'll probably cancel and take the hit if they dont let me change the coris though!

Sorry so long!

Appreciate any advise!

I didn't see anyone commenting on QT. You are quarantining your fish?
Match the SG in the QT to the bag. A good vendor will tell you what SG they house there fish in. Float 20 minutes and release in QT. All set.

 

[Garf]

There are two issues that need to be dealt with: some shippers send fish in lower salinity water, and acclimating up to full seawater needs to be done over days (say a SG in the bag of 1.018 and a tank that’s at 1.026). The other issue is the pH/ammonia toxicity scenario - the bag pH is low, rendering the ammonia less toxic. Aeration of the bag drives off the CO2, causing the pH to rise, making the ammonia much more toxic. Here is an article I wrote on acclimation :

Acclimation Methods

Acclimating Animals to Aquariums Jay F. Hemdal c.2020 Introduction to acclimation techniques Most beginning aquarists hear that they must “acclimate” any new animals they add to their aquarium. Acclimation (sometimes termed...

www.reef2reef.com

Temperature change is less of an issue (fish tolerate immediate 10 degree F. shifts fine according to fisheries biologists.

The only issue I’ve seen with pressure is when fish are shipped by air. The cabin pressure is lower and I’ve seen that cause swim bladder issues due to over expansion.

Thanks for that. I can only find scant data on shipping bags that indicate possible ammonia after 48hrs at 5ppm TAN. Considering the 72hr to 96 HR LC50 is a lot higher than that, I'd have thought the LC50 for 10 to 30 minutes at normal pH with a ramp from zero upon bagging to destination, would be sky high.

 

[schooncw]

what I do when I buy fish online is float the bags for at least 15 minutes then I put all the fish in one bucket/container just to make it easier and then every 10-15 minutes I put about a cup or so (depending on how many fish you have) of tank water until the they are acclimated. It usually takes around 30 minutes to an hour, sometimes two.

Seachem doesn’t do anything for ammonia

if you are not able to cancel the wrasse I would just do the method I do but just do everything a little slower than the rest of the fish.

Prime detoxifies ammonia!

 

[Garf]

Prime detoxifies ammonia!

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

This started when @Dan_P was looking at measuring NH3 with seneye and was curious about performance near zero NH3. I suggested trying Prime to artificially zero out the NH3 sensor, and the results were weird... so I checked with my seachem kit. Prime by Seachem is commonly used to treat tap...

www.reef2reef.com

How toxic is ammonia, really?

In the context of trying to understand why so many people believe Seachem Prime was useful for them in an elevated ammonia situation, against the data in the link below about Prime potentially doing nothing to free ammonia in seawater, the question arises, why...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for that. I can only find scant data on shipping bags that indicate possible ammonia after 48hrs at 5ppm TAN. Considering the 72hr to 96 HR LC50 is a lot higher than that, I'd have thought the LC50 for 10 to 30 minutes at normal pH with a ramp from zero upon bagging to destination, would be sky high.

Here is a nice study that answers some of your question: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0044848694902372

As mentioned by Jay - The problem is that IF the pH is suddenly increased (by letting CO2 out of the bag), the ammonia can rapidly increase which can also cause problems if one just does a drip acclimation. If you consider that 5 ppm total ammonia = somewhere between alarm and toxic at pH 8. However, you're completely correct that it's possible for people over-exaggerate the danger of ammonia in this situation. Part of it depends on the amount of the water in the bag vs the amount of fish, as well as the pH - a pH of 7.8 -->8.0 is nearly doubles free ammonia prolonged shipping time and high initial pH also can play a role.