Why do my dwarf angel fish keep dying

[leo12345]

Today my coral beauty died super unexpectedly because he was extremely healthy looking, i had a flame angel too that also died unexpectedly after being healthy what am I doing wrong, They only thing i did before it died was i put some rodi water in the tank to top it off because of evaporation but i have inverts and there more susceptible to dying from sanity changes and they were fine but could this have killed it? I also heard that they catch fish with cyanide and they die unexpectedly, could this be the case?

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

IMHO, it's about collection issues from the regions those fish come from. I've had poor success with dwarf angels also. Currently have a coral beauty that's doing well, but I'm cautious about it dropping dead.

 

[leo12345]

IMHO, it's about collection issues from the regions those fish come from. I've had poor success with dwarf angels also. Currently have a coral beauty that's doing well, but I'm cautious about it dropping dead.

When you say collection issues do you mean the way they catch the fish kills them

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

When you say collection issues do you mean the way they catch the fish kills them

Yup.

 

[FIN&BONEZ]

Dont feel bad over the years I've mastered keeping some of the hardest fish but never have been able to keep a flame angel. I agree with poor collection tactics.

 

[ckuhny3]

I got some angel food soak from brightwell that really upped my coral beauty’s feeding response . Have you ever tried it? I guess they have certain needs that it has in it

 

[Tamberav]

How long did you had the fish? Any other fish deaths or disappearances besides the angels?

I have honestly never had problems with keeping dwarfs, had a potters and coral beauty in the past, currently have a flame and multibar. That is not to say that there can't be collection issues.

A dwarf angelfish directly from the diver like a cherub from KPA or a captive angel from Biota may be the way to go if the ones from your LFS are not doing well.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Today my coral beauty died super unexpectedly because he was extremely healthy looking, i had a flame angel too that also died unexpectedly after being healthy what am I doing wrong, They only thing i did before it died was i put some rodi water in the tank to top it off because of evaporation but i have inverts and there more susceptible to dying from sanity changes and they were fine but could this have killed it? I also heard that they catch fish with cyanide and they die unexpectedly, could this be the case?

While possible on poisoning, other factors play a role such as quarantining but moreso acclimation.
How did you acclimate and for how long ?
Did both dwarfs eat?
Poisoning will often display fish somewhat lethargic , not eating and thinning slowly, in a daze allowing food to swim right past its face and then in a coma state until death.
Fish are more susceptible to dying than fish.

 

[leo12345]

While possible on poisoning, other factors play a role such as quarantining but moreso acclimation.
How did you acclimate and for how long ?
Did both dwarfs eat?
Poisoning will often display fish somewhat lethargic , not eating and thinning slowly, in a daze allowing food to swim right past its face and then in a coma state until death.
Fish are more susceptible to dying than fish.

I just let him float for 30 minutes then i just put him is the tank because the sanity was the same, also I didn’t medicate him but i did have him in a separate holding bin for two weeks to monitor him but I didn’t see any issues so i just put him in the main tank. And yes both dwarfs were eating the day before they died. The flame angel was completely lethargic but i didnt get to see what happened to the CB because i was asleep.

 

[leo12345]

How long did you had the fish? Any other fish deaths or disappearances besides the angels?

I have honestly never had problems with keeping dwarfs, had a potters and coral beauty in the past, currently have a flame and multibar. That is not to say that there can't be collection issues.

A dwarf angelfish directly from the diver like a cherub from KPA or a captive angel from Biota may be the way to go if the ones from your LFS are not doing well.

I had the flame for about 3 months and the CB for like 2-3 weeks I got them both from the same fish store so i think thats the problem and im never going there again. Is there any captive bred flame angels? I also have a cleaner shrimp and a few other fish from the beginning and there fine

 

[MnFish1]

Today my coral beauty died super unexpectedly because he was extremely healthy looking, i had a flame angel too that also died unexpectedly after being healthy what am I doing wrong, They only thing i did before it died was i put some rodi water in the tank to top it off because of evaporation but i have inverts and there more susceptible to dying from sanity changes and they were fine but could this have killed it? I also heard that they catch fish with cyanide and they die unexpectedly, could this be the case?

It depends on how quickly they died after capture (which you might not know) - also sometimes - a needle is used to decompress fish. If they are dying shortly after you get them - it's most likely to be an issue with the source/poorly collected fish. Especially if they have no other lesions, etc. The RODI would not do this IMHO. PS - I did not see your answer in the post above - you posted it while I was typing. Sometimes parasites/disease can kill fish after arrival - but you would normally see symptoms. 3 months is a little long - but not unheard of for cyanide issues.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I just let him float for 30 minutes then i just put him is the tank because the sanity was the same, also I didn’t medicate him but i did have him in a separate holding bin for two weeks to monitor him but I didn’t see any issues so i just put him in the main tank. And yes both dwarfs were eating the day before they died. The flame angel was completely lethargic but i didnt get to see what happened to the CB because i was asleep.

On the acclimation, whilke you want to equalize the salinity, there is more to it:
Adding a little tank water inadequate as you need a rate of exchange for both ph and salinity matching the salinity of bag water with that of the tank. Osmotic shock may have occurred.
For the future, your acclimation is simply not long enough. Just alone, you would have floated bag to equalize temperature and you want to empty bag and fish into a CLEAN bucket and they add tank water until AT MINIMUM you matched the salinity in the bucket with that of the tank. I add a cup of water every 15 mins until you have assured salinity, ph have been equalized
My acclimation method (not the only one out there):
I generally:
Float for 20-30 minutes
Transfer fish and water into a clean bucket
Then . . . .
Measure the Ph, salinity and temperature of the bag water. If you can, make up some water in a container that has exactly the same measurements as the bag readings and move the fish right over, then you can add a cup of tank water to bucket every 15 mins 6 times (almost 1.5 hours)
Then check salinity in bucket and compare to tank. If no match or very close, add a cup of water every few mins until youve reached salinity and trap fish in same cup and pour off water and release into display. Release under LOW light before lights out. Fish in shipped bags produce carbon dioxide and ammonia. The carbon dioxide lowers the pH of the water in the bag, That in turn makes the ammonia non-toxic to the fish. When you acclimate them, if not done just right, you drive off the carbon dioxide faster than you are diluting the ammonia. That raises the pH of the water in the bag, and that in turn, makes the residual ammonia very toxic to the fish. Sometimes, the fish will die right in the bag

 

[MnFish1]

BTW - Don't know how interested you are in cyanide in fish - here is an article that is somewhat older - but nicely summarizes some of the symptoms and what 'can' happen - and how it happens. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-01/sp/index.php

 

[MnFish1]

On the acclimation, whilke you want to equalize the salinity, there is more to it:
Adding a little tank water inadequate as you need a rate of exchange for both ph and salinity matching the salinity of bag water with that of the tank. Osmotic shock may have occurred.
For the future, your acclimation is simply not long enough. Just alone, you would have floated bag to equalize temperature and you want to empty bag and fish into a CLEAN bucket and they add tank water until AT MINIMUM you matched the salinity in the bucket with that of the tank. I add a cup of water every 15 mins until you have assured salinity, ph have been equalized
My acclimation method (not the only one out there):
I generally:
Float for 20-30 minutes
Transfer fish and water into a clean bucket
Then . . . .
Measure the Ph, salinity and temperature of the bag water. If you can, make up some water in a container that has exactly the same measurements as the bag readings and move the fish right over, then you can add a cup of tank water to bucket every 15 mins 6 times (almost 1.5 hours)
Then check salinity in bucket and compare to tank. If no match or very close, add a cup of water every few mins until youve reached salinity and trap fish in same cup and pour off water and release into display. Release under LOW light before lights out. Fish in shipped bags produce carbon dioxide and ammonia. The carbon dioxide lowers the pH of the water in the bag, That in turn makes the ammonia non-toxic to the fish. When you acclimate them, if not done just right, you drive off the carbon dioxide faster than you are diluting the ammonia. That raises the pH of the water in the bag, and that in turn, makes the residual ammonia very toxic to the fish. Sometimes, the fish will die right in the bag

As you said, there are so many acclimation protocols - but the ammonia issue you mention can certainly be a problem - especially if there is a delayed shipment (as compared to a 15 minute drive from the fish store). My personal opinion is 'follow whatever procedure the shipper/seller recommends's. Which can help with warranty issues, etc. Certain shippers add drugs to their water, some hyper oxygenate the water, etc etc etc. If I buy fish from an LFS - If they are keeping the fish in copper, hypo salinity, (i.e. non-reef salinity, etc) - I do not buy them. I also try to observe the fish for some time (i.e. a couple weeks) - before buying.

 

[leo12345]

It depends on how quickly they died after capture (which you might not know) - also sometimes - a needle is used to decompress fish. If they are dying shortly after you get them - it's most likely to be an issue with the source/poorly collected fish. Especially if they have no other lesions, etc. The RODI would not do this IMHO. PS - I did not see your answer in the post above - you posted it while I was typing. Sometimes parasites/disease can kill fish after arrival - but you would normally see symptoms. 3 months is a little long - but not unheard of for cyanide issues.

Both fish had white stringy poop but i was feeding them only brine shrimp and after i stoped they stoped having stringy poop, but at the end before the flame angel died i think he started doing it again but i can remember.

 

[leo12345]

As you said, there are so many acclimation protocols - but the ammonia issue you mention can certainly be a problem - especially if there is a delayed shipment (as compared to a 15 minute drive from the fish store). My personal opinion is 'follow whatever procedure the shipper/seller recommends's. Which can help with warranty issues, etc. Certain shippers add drugs to their water, some hyper oxygenate the water, etc etc etc. If I buy fish from an LFS - If they are keeping the fish in copper, hypo salinity, (i.e. non-reef salinity, etc) - I do not buy them. I also try to observe the fish for some time (i.e. a couple weeks) - before buying.

My lfs just tells me to float for 15 minutes them dump the fish in the tank which i know is wrong so thats why I usually add some water to the bag and leave it floating longer but since the sanity was the same in the bag i just put him in the tank

 

[MnFish1]

My lfs just tells me to float for 15 minutes them dump the fish in the tank which i know is wrong so thats why I usually add some water to the bag and leave it floating longer but since the sanity was the same in the bag i just put him in the tank

So then just to be clear - you did not QT the fish? And do you know if your LFS uses any prophylactic medication, etc at the store?

 

[leo12345]

So then just to be clear - you did not QT the fish? And do you know if your LFS uses any prophylactic medication, etc at the store?

I didn’t quarantine the flame angel but i put the cb in a separate tank to observe him before i medicated with anything but he looked fine and healthy so i just put him in the main tank, also I doubt they would use any medication but ive never asked.

 

[albano]

My lfs just tells me to float for 15 minutes them dump the fish in the tank… but since the sanity was the same in the bag i just put him in the tank

Your reef tank is the same salinity as your LFSs holding tanks?
They usually run very low salinity.

 

[leo12345]

Your reef tank is the same salinity as your LFSs holding tanks?
They usually run very low salinity.

It was at 1.025