where have all these concerns in reefing come from? is it just commercialization of bad product?

[Piscans]

I have been pondering a subject recently, why is everyone making all these big concerns about reefing?

Nowadays, when scrolling through r2r, its stuff like changing salt mix or is my cycle complete or "what could this possibly be" type situations, most of the problems i see could be figured out with google and a little bit of effort. all you really need to start being an "expert" in reefing is a PhD in google. back in the days of old, people had to go to libraries and use the magical internet, that took a long time to load up. I am young, so i do not know of the trouble of things like that, but i do not ignore it, in modern day, a single person has almost all data, from all time, Accessible in less than 1 second. what if we went to the same effort as the people back in the day? what could we accomplish? another thing, they did not have the luxury of googling the salt peramaters of a obscure brand of salt, they would just have to take a shot in the dark. nobody does that anymore. back then, people had dynamite tanks like this one:

so why do modern day reefers, with access to all the information they could possibly need have tanks that are pretty old, that are algae ridden dry rock scapes with maybe 3 corals and a pair of evil clownfish?


Cause people overload concerns, underdo things, and the problems in the tank that are not adressed with proper care take hold and conquer the tank. Lots of people fail cause lots of people keep tanks, just about every possible thing has a horror story that comes from it. when you have a concern, instead of asking everyone who has heard that story or who just google the problem to be helpful and find that horror story, spend 30 minutes reading different sources and then weigh the pros and cons of whatever you are trying to do.

Hope this provides some insight,

Piscans

Edit: i forgot to adress commercialization, so i will write about that here:


Another problem is the hyper-commercialization of the reefing industry, lighting for a small-ish tank can go up into the 4 figure range, which is something most prospecting reefers and just reefers in general cannot afford. Those big expensive light companies also rely on the problems that some reefers have had with cheaper lights, proclaiming that their light can do no wrong, when the truth is, most of those lights are manufactured by the same people in china, this also goes with pretty much all other equipment. i feel that usually people just rely on their brand to push through mediocre products but brand them as god-tier end all products, when they are just a cheap light in a fancy facade.

 

[Tamberav]

Because we live in a world of social media and people want to be spoon fed information. Especially if there is a YouTube video about it.

Another thing is to fish for information that already aligns with your thinking. Confirmation bias.

 

[PigDaddyF15E]

Because we live in a world of social media and people want to be spoon fed information. Especially if there is a YouTube video about it.

^THIS..in the instant gratification world people don't want to take the time to do some research. Also...I suspect...people want to get the dopamine hit by getting replies.

Thought about this the other day after seeing the millionth "Is my cycle stuck" or "what is this (blue light pic attached)". On the one hand I want to be nice and help people if I can...and on the other I just want some forum lockdown that says "before posting make sure you follow these guidelines or your post will be removed and your internet and dessert privileges will be revoked for 10 days".

Having said all that...I would say that "we" collectively have lots of different opinions on "what works"...and they seem to be opposites sometimes. Personally I'm having an algae problem that has been going on for 7 months...and I get "do X" replies then I get "X is the worst thing you could do" types of replies. So...I think sometimes people might research...but see conflicting answers...so they post.

 

[Cthulukelele]

I mean you're also comparing the top 1% of 1% of reefers in the 90s to the person asking the least researched questions on an internet forum. These people still existed years ago, they were just buying blue tangs and putting them in tap water bowls on their counter for 20 minutes deaths

 

[Rmckoy]

Society now is more about sitting back and letting others do the work ( research ) for them

it’s easier to ask for someone else’s experience compared to putting in the time to solve what could potentially be a easy fix .

 

[brandon429]

Here's an exercise to help

Don't base anything you recommend to others on your own tank, that'll humble

If you can fix cycling issues, make a thread inviting 100 reefs to cycle in your thread and log their results

If you can skip disease prep and still keep fish, don't tell us about your tank ever, make a work thread inviting 100 new reefs to set up without disease preps and we evaluate your method on page ten of that work thread, using other people's reefs, and never your own


Same for algae control


Same for tank transfer methodology

Working with other people's reefs is totally humbling 100%. We don't get to shape feedback and omit failures that way, but we get to if our home reef is the only operating example

 

[Cell]

When there is a crazy amount of conflicting info or differing opinions on how to run a successful reef, then sometimes its helpful to have a guide to cut through the unnecessary stuff and help someone find the right track for them. Too much info can be overwhelming, especially with no consensus.

 

[brandon429]

This confidence might be shaken on page ten of any work thread where other people's investments use our method. And if they all pass, that's a heckuva solid method+best practices claim. Work threads are the best proof in reefing, far superior to peer reviewed studies.

 

[sixty_reefer]

We live in an ocean of misinformation thanks to the internet, it’s fairly complicated to choose what is right and wrong specially wend so many folks just keep echoing that same information without really understanding it. Most issues in our system are simple to resolve we don’t need light that cost the same as a car and we definitely don’t need to be rich to start a saltwater aquarium.

 

[PigDaddyF15E]

Getting back to the OP's first paragraph. What we want is some "please don't post until you read this" type of magic thing that people CANT post until they read and won't let them post if they don't follow (not gonna happen) ...but it all keeps coming back to the fact that people find it easier to post instead of researching.

 

[flashsmith]

I get where the OP is coming from. So much BS out there that people buy into. Constantly throwing money away trying "new" programs thinking it will turn things around. Never having a stable tank. Trying snake oil after snake oil making this hobby more difficult than it is. No matter how hard you try you will never recreate the ocean your living room. Good ole husbandry and getting in there and doing the work is the key to success. Not throwing moonshine this and that in your system. I've always said if you're the impatient micro manager type don't even bother trying this hobby. It's not for you.

 

[gatohoser]

I mean you're also comparing the top 1% of 1% of reefers in the 90s to the person asking the least researched questions on an internet forum. These people still existed years ago, they were just buying blue tangs and putting them in tap water bowls on their counter for 20 minutes deaths

As a reefer who started in the lates 90 when there was already reef central and plenty of good online information, but still books on the subject that were somewhat fresh, I can say the reason is a bit complicated in my estimation, which is just that.
My read of it;
1.) There are many more casual aquarists than before. The hobby has grown immensely. That is due to the commercialization making so many things easier and actually more affordable though there are now very high end options. Casual aquarists don’t always want to have to devote so much time to this hobby to enjoy it. You can’t blame somebody for underestimating the complexity or devotion needed to maintain a reef properly especially at the beginning when lots of newbie mistakes are made or inadequate supplies are all that they have afforded themselves such as swing hydrometers.
2.) The internet is actually a harder place to navigate the reefing hobby in some ways than it was with just a book. When you had the Calfo method of reefkeeping in a book and could read it and do things the Anthony Calfo way, you were fed an entire methodology. Nowadays you have to hear from some keeper who doesn't believe in water changes and uses the moonshiner method as well providing answers to the same question being answered by a keep-it-simple-stupid keeper who does tons of water changes with minimal filtration. This leads to lots of work sorting out what methodology makes sense or works best for you. There’s also lots of quick easy answers provided without deeper understanding that leave the reader perhaps less knowledgable than they could have been.
3.) What we are all reaching for is in my opinion vastly exceptional compared to what we would consider nice back in the early era. We all want glowing massive colonies of various competing-demand-corals versus just doing what is easy or within our effort level.

Then again it’s early in the morning and I haven’t had my coffee and probably shouldn’t be philosophisizing

 

[ReefGeezer]

I think there is a difference between "Googling" something and asking for information on a hobby specific forum. There is a peer review of sorts happening in the forum. We you google something like "Fishless Cycle" or "Algae Control" you get a list of sites that have information concerning those issues. Some are links to hobby forum threads, some are scholarly papers, and some are commercial sites selling products. Picking the wrong link can certainly send you down a rabbit hole. I won't say that R2R threads never send people down the same rabbit holes, but at least there are others seeing the journey that can pull you out... or at least warn you... if you are smart enough (or not too smart) to listen.

 

[Cthulukelele]

At the end of the day I really don't understand how we could view the current era as anything but a golden era for reefing success. Your average reefer is vastly more successful now than they were even 10 years ago much less 25-30. People ask people they see who are successful what they're doing to be successful instead of reading dozens of conflicting Google results on the same topic. I really feel like there's a massive amount of rose tinted glasses on the past in reefing in this thread.

 

[vetteguy53081]

People are going online which is too accessible to obtain information from various sources and are weighing the best answers or combining them in hopes of the best results.
Its hard to go online and try a persons' method with their 500g tank when they have a 50 gal cube but they convince themselves they have the answer

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

I think there is a difference between "Googling" something and asking for information on a hobby specific forum. There is a peer review of sorts happening in the forum. We you google something like "Fishless Cycle" or "Algae Control" you get a list of sites that have information concerning those issues. Some are links to hobby forum threads, some are scholarly papers, and some are commercial sites selling products. Picking the wrong link can certainly send you down a rabbit hole. I won't say that R2R threads never send people down the same rabbit holes, but at least there are others seeing the journey that can pull you out... or at least warn you... if you are smart enough (or not too smart) to listen.

Well said.

 

[Nano sapiens]

At the end of the day I really don't understand how we could view the current era as anything but a golden era for reefing success. Your average reefer is vastly more successful now than they were even 10 years ago much less 25-30. People ask people they see who are successful what they're doing to be successful instead of reading dozens of conflicting Google results on the same topic. I really feel like there's a massive amount of rose tinted glasses on the past in reefing in this thread.

We all have 'perception bias'. Anything that anyone types here is just that without statistics to provide needed clarity.

Having said that, IMO comparing past and present it's a mixed bag when looking at 'success' (however one defines that).

What I do believe is that the hobby has become overcomplicated with minutiae in recent years and not enough attention is being paid to establishing the core foundational elements.

 

[Cthulukelele]

We all have 'perception bias'. Anything that anyone types here is just that without statistics to provide needed clarity.

Sure, comprehending the science behind a lot of this stuff is very important. Science is my field of work so I value those core philosophies. It's also useful to get practical testable strategies with track records of successful implementation and getting it from multiple sources.

 

[RichReef]

I am very thankful for the internet. It got me back into saltwater and then to reefing.

My first saltwater tank was back in the early 90s. It was a .... fail and a long term one. I gave up after 2 years. We had to mostly reply on LFS guidance and that was hit or miss at best.

In 2013 I wanted to start another tank. Fresh? Salt? Wife wanted me to go salt but the flashbacks of what I went through before gave me a headache.

So in comes Google. And OMG the things I didn't know. The information that was at my fingertips. So needless to say I didn't just go salt I went reef. And even then I struggled until I found what works for me <-------.

I notice when a question is asked you will always get different answers. That is where the problem comes in. It gets confusing. But ...

Lighting. All you need is spectrum and par. Brand doesn't matter. Manual timers and Home Depot clamp lights can get it done. Best lighting? The Sun? No one here has the best lighting. They have the PAR from what they are willing to spend.

Nutrient export? It ALL works. What's best for you? How much space you have for export literally dictates your bio load. Smaller spaces require more money. My ATS is a 15 gallon high tank but I have the space for that.

Without going farther it all depends on what works for your situation. What you want to get out of it. What you want to put into it.

This is the point to new reefers. There isn't going to be any instant gratification. Most of the questions asked have already been asked. Most of the time I don't reply to them because someone already said what I was going to say. You have to find what works for you. Your space. Your desires. How much work you want to do. How much you want to spend. It's all relevant.

But the one thing you must absolutely do is research. And a lot of it. Read. Read. Read. There are way more successful tanks today then the past because more people are doing it. And the success is growing. Not because of technology. Because of information. Google. Try it. Worked for me.

 

[Midrats]

Your average reefer is vastly more successful now than they were even 10 years ago much less 25-30.

As one who was reefing thirty years ago and was part of the industry for many years I'm not sure I agree with this statement.