What is the best way to do sump intake without drilling?

[Afkomjorgen]

Thinking about making a sump. I’m not comfortable drilling since the tank is established. What’s an alternative that people use? Do I need anything special on to prevent overfill? What width is best to control flow?

thanks!
sierra

 

[tsouth]

This should get you off to the right start regarding concepts:


From the overflow box, a siphon is created which drains into the sump. Within the sump are your chambers, and the last chamber concludes the circle by using the return pump, pushing the water upwards through tubing, and out of a nozzle which also hangs over the rim of the aquarium. With regards to the width of piping, these will typically be pre-calculated with regards to the overflow box you purchase and it is based off of your overall aquarium volume. You'll have to share that info with us if you're seeking a recommendation on products

You do not need anything special to prevent overfill in the main display so long as the tank overflow has a constant siphon. This is somewhat antiquated technology so I haven't been in the loop with the latest and greatest in overfow boxes and whether or not they've created a remedy for siphon breaks (when your power shuts off).

In order to prevent overfill within the sump, you'll need to make sure you have a siphon break somewhere in the return nozzle. A check valve on the return line is also an aid.

I hope this helps! Let's hear what others with more experience have to say too!

 

[Afkomjorgen]

This should get you off to the right start regarding concepts:


From the overflow box, a siphon is created which drains into the sump. Within the sump are your chambers, and the last chamber concludes the circle by using the return pump, pushing the water upwards through tubing, and out of a nozzle which also hangs over the rim of the aquarium. With regards to the width of piping, these will typically be pre-calculated with regards to the overflow box you purchase and it is based off of your overall aquarium volume. You'll have to share that info with us if you're seeking a recommendation on products

You do not need anything special to prevent overfill in the main display so long as the tank overflow has a constant siphon. This is somewhat antiquated technology so I haven't been in the loop with the latest and greatest in overfow boxes and whether or not they've created a remedy for siphon breaks (when your power shuts off).

In order to prevent overfill within the sump, you'll need to make sure you have a siphon break somewhere in the return nozzle. A check valve on the return line is also an aid.

I hope this helps! Let's hear what others with more experience have to say too!

Oh! Thank you, that’s awesome.
I guess that would be helpful to know
I have a 28 gal bow front. The stand it’s on has no extra room and the little shelf below is too small.
I’m thinking I’ll need to place it to the left of the tank on its own stand. I had some other questions.

1. Is it better for the sump to be lower then the tank? Does it matter how much lower?

2. I’m planning on having a protein skimmer and a refugium in it. Are filter socks or sponges necessary if I have no other means of filtration besides the live rock?

3. What size tank would you recommend I build the sump in? I was thinking 5 or 10.

4. for the return pipe, if I use pvc, is it ok to use regular pvc pipe glue?

Thanks!!

 

[Afkomjorgen]

This is the stand

A 5 gal MIGHT fit but for sure the skimmer won’t

 

[Brett S]

1. Is it better for the sump to be lower then the tank? Does it matter how much lower?

The sump *has* to be lower than the tank. The drain works because gravity pulls the water down, so if the sump isn’t lower then the tank won’t drain and the whole thing doesn’t work. The sump doesn’t necessarily need to be directly under the tank, it could be beside the tank and lower, but it absolutely needs to be lower.

2. I’m planning on having a protein skimmer and a refugium in it. Are filter socks or sponges necessary if I have no other means of filtration besides the live rock?

I’ve always been a no filter sock type person, but there are some people who swear by them. If you make space in your sump for filter socks (or a roller mat) then you can choose later whether you want to use them or not. But you can absolutely run a tank without filter socks.

3. What size tank would you recommend I build the sump in? I was thinking 5 or 10.

The bigger the better. The bigger it is the more space you will have for whatever you want to put in it and the more water volume you will have in your system. Obviously it will be limited by the space you have available, but you will want to use as large of a sump as you can. There is a minimum size though, because when the return pump is shut off some extra water will drain down from the tank to the sump. With a 28G tank that might be about 2G that will drain down, so you need to make sure there’s extra room in the sump to hold that water or you will have a flood when your pump is off. With a 5G tank you would need to reserve almost 50% of it’s capacity for that drain down, so that’s probably smaller than you want to go. 10G would probably be fine, but I’d go bigger if you can.

4. for the return pipe, if I use pvc, is it ok to use regular pvc pipe glue?

Yes, not a problem.

 

[MarshallB]

Oh! Thank you, that’s awesome.
I guess that would be helpful to know
I have a 28 gal bow front. The stand it’s on has no extra room and the little shelf below is too small.
I’m thinking I’ll need to place it to the left of the tank on its own stand. I had some other questions.

1. Is it better for the sump to be lower then the tank? Does it matter how much lower?

2. I’m planning on having a protein skimmer and a refugium in it. Are filter socks or sponges necessary if I have no other means of filtration besides the live rock?

3. What size tank would you recommend I build the sump in? I was thinking 5 or 10.

4. for the return pipe, if I use pvc, is it ok to use regular pvc pipe glue?

Thanks!!

Many people love socks, others do just fine without them.

I would say its a good idea to use them starting up until your fuge is mature enough to handle the addition nutrients of all the stuff the socks would normally catch breaking down into additional nutrients. The other benefits to socks is less stuff floating around in the water column IE clearer water.

Sump size, as big as you can manage. More space is more space. You may want to add additional equipment in the future, or want more space for your fuge.

Most of those tanks are built for freshwater in mind, thus there is no need to have space for a sump in the stand. I ran into that with my 125. I just gave away the stand and built a stand. It's going to be rough fitting a skimmer + fuge into that space, socks are probably out of the question then. May look into a chaeto reactor instead of a refugium.

 

[tsouth]

1. Is it better for the sump to be lower then the tank? Does it matter how much lower?

Gravity as mentioned above

2. I’m planning on having a protein skimmer and a refugium in it. Are filter socks or sponges necessary if I have no other means of filtration besides the live rock?

They are not necessary. You should always remember that things are only necessary if your tank needs them. They are by no means the key to a successful reef. A protein skimmer is a great start. What about a refugium? What is your goal there? Do you need to reduce nitrates? Do you need a place for copepods to breed? Same goes for socks - do you need to further filtration? What if your water gets too clean? Start with the foundations, and then discover if you need to put something in there, then you can add it later.

The one other thing I think is a must is to run carbon. If you do that in a reactor, then place for space for that too.

When creating a sump, note that the compartments help with water flow and water height. It is very typical to have a "bubble trap" after the inlet portion of the sump. I would highly recommend this, which is created by siliconing three panels one after the other. A search on this forum will guide you.

 

[Afkomjorgen]

The sump *has* to be lower than the tank. The drain works because gravity pulls the water down, so if the sump isn’t lower then the tank won’t drain and the whole thing doesn’t work. The sump doesn’t necessarily need to be directly under the tank, it could be beside the tank and lower, but it absolutely needs to be lower.



I’ve always been a no filter sock type person, but there are some people who swear by them. If you make space in your sump for filter socks (or a roller mat) then you can choose later whether you want to use them or not. But you can absolutely run a tank without filter socks.



The bigger the better. The bigger it is the more space you will have for whatever you want to put in it and the more water volume you will have in your system. Obviously it will be limited by the space you have available, but you will want to use as large of a sump as you can. There is a minimum size though, because when the return pump is shut off some extra water will drain down from the tank to the sump. With a 28G tank that might be about 2G that will drain down, so you need to make sure there’s extra room in the sump to hold that water or you will have a flood when your pump is off. With a 5G tank you would need to reserve almost 50% of it’s capacity for that drain down, so that’s probably smaller than you want to go. 10G would probably be fine, but I’d go bigger if you can.



Yes, not a problem.

This is so helpful, thank you!

 

[Afkomjorgen]

Many people love socks, others do just fine without them.

I would say its a good idea to use them starting up until your fuge is mature enough to handle the addition nutrients of all the stuff the socks would normally catch breaking down into additional nutrients. The other benefits to socks is less stuff floating around in the water column IE clearer water.

Sump size, as big as you can manage. More space is more space. You may want to add additional equipment in the future, or want more space for your fuge.

Most of those tanks are built for freshwater in mind, thus there is no need to have space for a sump in the stand. I ran into that with my 125. I just gave away the stand and built a stand. It's going to be rough fitting a skimmer + fuge into that space, socks are probably out of the question then. May look into a chaeto reactor instead of a refugium.

I want to build my next stand! Definitely a project for the next size up though. I want to get a 40 long.
I might be able to fit a 10 or bigger between it and the wall. Time to measure

how long does a fuge take to become mature?

 

[Afkomjorgen]

Gravity as mentioned above

They are not necessary. You should always remember that things are only necessary if your tank needs them. They are by no means the key to a successful reef. A protein skimmer is a great start. What about a refugium? What is your goal there? Do you need to reduce nitrates? Do you need a place for copepods to breed? Same goes for socks - do you need to further filtration? What if your water gets too clean? Start with the foundations, and then discover if you need to put something in there, then you can add it later.

The one other thing I think is a must is to run carbon. If you do that in a reactor, then place for space for that too.

When creating a sump, note that the compartments help with water flow and water height. It is very typical to have a "bubble trap" after the inlet portion of the sump. I would highly recommend this, which is created by siliconing three panels one after the other. A search on this forum will guide you.

We have been on a budget this whole tank’s existance, so it had a bare bones set up. Just live rocks, the cheapest surface skimmer we could find and a wave maker to help filtration.

we’ve been seeing nitrates around 20-40ppms (api test kit, so with a grain of salt) for a couple of months and we’re hoping to upgrade a bit.

We also have had hair algae issues in the past that have been worse recently. I heard fuge’s are the way to go to fix it if your clean up crew is slacking.

 

[tsouth]

We have been on a budget this whole tank’s existance, so it had a bare bones set up. Just live rocks, the cheapest surface skimmer we could find and a wave maker to help filtration.

we’ve been seeing nitrates around 20-40ppms (api test kit, so with a grain of salt) for a couple of months and we’re hoping to upgrade a bit.

We also have had hair algae issues in the past that have been worse recently. I heard fuge’s are the way to go to fix it if your clean up crew is slacking.

Right on!
Sorry to hear about the high nitrates and hair algae. They are hand in hand. I would encourage you to look into reducing your nitrates from other means first. This includes reducing feeding heavily, maybe once a day, ensuring your Ro/Di filters are in good shape, and doing water changes more often than what you currently schedule. Definitely retrospect and consider what things you could change now that may lead to better habits! Good luck good luck!

Note - A 50% water change will effectively half your nitrates. 40ppm to 20, then 20 to 10, and 10 to 5.

 

[Afkomjorgen]

Right on!
Sorry to hear about the high nitrates and hair algae. They are hand in hand. I would encourage you to look into reducing your nitrates from other means first. This includes reducing feeding heavily, maybe once a day, ensuring your Ro/Di filters are in good shape, and doing water changes more often than what you currently schedule. Definitely retrospect and consider what things you could change now that may lead to better habits! Good luck good luck!

Note - A 50% water change will effectively half your nitrates. 40ppm to 20, then 20 to 10, and 10 to 5.

We’re re-homing our biggest fish and hoping to reduce some nitrates that way ( not just because of nitrates, he has become too large and pushy for his peaceful tank mates ) and food reduction is under way.
How much does aeration of the water have to do with filtration/nitrates? Currently we have little to no surface movement.
again, we budget started this tank. No ro di system. We use tap and water conditioner and reef salt. Local LFS says our water here is pretty good on its own.
Thanks
Sierra

 

[tsouth]

We’re re-homing our biggest fish and hoping to reduce some nitrates that way ( not just because of nitrates, he has become too large and pushy for his peaceful tank mates ) and food reduction is under way.
How much does aeration of the water have to do with filtration/nitrates? Currently we have little to no surface movement.
again, we budget started this tank. No ro di system. We use tap and water conditioner and reef salt. Local LFS says our water here is pretty good on its own.
Thanks
Sierra

Full transparency - I was alluding to the fact that you may be using tap water, with my fingers crossed that you would tell me "PSH No way Jose!" Your hair algae issue is quite possibly fueled by tap water if it contains nitrates and phosphates. Have you ever asked your LFS if they use tap water for their saltwater tanks? If so, acknowledge how their tanks look. If they're great, then ask what they're doing to the water to keep it in check. If they're not great, then that's an answer in itself.

I hope you will consider distilled in the mean time, until you're up for either buying ro/di water or making your own via ro/di system. Check in on this thread for more info: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-many-of-you-is-not-using-rodi.789298/

Surface aeration and agitation is very important, especially as your only source of overturn for O2 - but I do not have enough knowledge to tell you whether or not it has any impact on nitrates. Once a skimmer is in place, that'll provide ample amounts of oxygenation alongside the reduction of nitrates ten fold, but not as beneficial as using ro/di.

You can either create new saltwater with the highest confidence of 0 nitrates and 0 phosphates using Ro/di
or
You can create new saltwater with unknown nitrates and unknown phosphates using tap, with hopes of removing them with chemicals or compounds like GFO and Carbon and have a never-ending battle

 

[Afkomjorgen]

Full transparency - I was alluding to the fact that you may be using tap water, with my fingers crossed that you would tell me "PSH No way Jose!" Your hair algae issue is quite possibly fueled by tap water if it contains nitrates and phosphates. Have you ever asked your LFS if they use tap water for their saltwater tanks? If so, acknowledge how their tanks look. If they're great, then ask what they're doing to the water to keep it in check. If they're not great, then that's an answer in itself.

I hope you will consider distilled in the mean time, until you're up for either buying ro/di water or making your own via ro/di system. Check in on this thread for more info: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-many-of-you-is-not-using-rodi.789298/

Surface aeration and agitation is very important, especially as your only source of overturn for O2 - but I do not have enough knowledge to tell you whether or not it has any impact on nitrates. Once a skimmer is in place, that'll provide ample amounts of oxygenation alongside the reduction of nitrates ten fold, but not as beneficial as using ro/di.

You can either create new saltwater with the highest confidence of 0 nitrates and 0 phosphates using Ro/di
or
You can create new saltwater with unknown nitrates and unknown phosphates using tap, with hopes of removing them with chemicals or compounds like GFO and Carbon and have a never-ending battle

That’s ok.
Well. They fight algae in some of their tanks pretty hard too..
Haven’t got a budget for rodi system but know where I can buy some. Can you mix tap and rodi water in your system, ok?
Can I do some of both to keep cost down? How close is distilled to rodi?