What do you look for in a good "marine mix" frozen food?

[betareef]

What do you look for in a good "marine mix" frozen food?

The one I am currently using seems to have a lot of brine shrimp, but I thought brine shrimp are not particularly good food value. Would more mysis shrimp be better? Or maybe chopped up fish/prawn/squid?

Is it good to have a mix, or just one good one. Does anyone just feed mysis shrimp alone?

Should there be any vegetable matter in the mix?

What about spirulina? Worth having?

 

[Doctorgori]

You will get a variety of replies but usually here is my brand tier:
Rods
Hikari
Ocean Nutrition
Sallys
there is a brand below this but can’t recall the name
Anyway, I only use these as supplements and chop my own from frozen sea food mix outta Asian Marts, et
I don’t usually buy mixes, but I will get specialty veg based stuff, and then only Formula 2 or Nori sheets

Added: the Mega Marine series seems heartily consumed, so perhaps something to that brand

Spirulna Brine has a decent profile, but the non enhanced stuff is fruit loops… Some of the mysis is kinda just husk, IME I 1st thaw in fridge as opposed to water and I don’t rinse
Frozen calanus might be better, I dunno
when in doubt, chopped raw shrimp and clams never fails

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

My response is a bit lengthy, but it should answer most of your questions.

The most important stuff:

Given that most aquaculture places use one, stable diet (using one feed and not switching feeds) for the broodstock of each species they work with and that fish need to be in basically peak physical condition to breed successfully, I'd say that a variety of feeds isn't always the best nutritionally.

One, good, quality feed is likely going to be better in a lot of situations.

That said, the best feeds for fish generally do have a good variety of ingredients (typically containing things like fish, crustaceans like shrimp or krill, bivalves, and different kinds of algae); the key is using ingredients that meet the various nutritional needs for most fish in the right quantities - as mentioned, some fish will need more/different kinds of meaty foods, some need more algae or a wider variety/different kind of algae, some may need sponges in their diet, etc., but in a reef tank setting with a wide range of fish, it's probably easier to feed a good quality "general/carnivore" fish feed and supplement it as needed for those fish with special dietary requirements (this is most commonly seen here when people feed frozen/pellets and supplement it with algae by offering nori to accommodate herbivores).

As a quick note here, not all ingredients (fish, crustaceans, bivalves, algae, etc.) are equally good - each species of fish, crustacean, bivalve, algae, etc. has its own nutritional profile/makeup; some fish will benefit more from some species than others (lion king discusses this in a few of their threads on predator nutrition here on R2R and Jay touched on this a bit above), but a few generalizations can be made (for example, salmon is almost always a good choice, same with clams of just about any kind, and with Ulva and Graciliaria and Halymenia macroalgae from what I've seen). The ingredients can also have a noticeable impact on the coloration of fish (which is why a lot of companies like to note that their feed contains astaxanthin and spirulina).

So, when considering feeds, as Jay said:

The diet must also have the proper balance of fats, proteins, and carbohydrates, as well as the proper amount of vitamins and minerals.

You want to consider the dry matter basis analysis for the protein, fat, etc. content of a feed (i.e. you want to look at how much protein, fat, etc. is in a feed once you get rid of the moisture in the feed - this is especially important for evaluating frozen feeds), and you want to consider the ingredients of the feed (too many grains and/or carbs is a no go - fish aren't designed to handle grains and carbs like humans do - and you want a good variety of ingredients to try and ensure that the feed contains the vitamins and minerals your fish need).

For what it's worth, my feed suggestions, my rationale behind those suggestions, and an explanation/discussion of dry matter basis can be found in the post linked below, but - basically - the best feed I've found on the market currently for hobbyists is LRS Reef Frenzy:

Is Emerald Entrée a "complete" food?. . . if no, what is a "complete" food my fish will actually eat?

This is sort of my "staple" food, fish seem to enjoy it and I like that it has shrimp and algae in it. . . I do mix it with other foods, namely Marine Cuisine and Coral Cuisine (both are also frozen foods from the same company), however, the fish don't seem to like the Marine Cuisine (I have...

www.reef2reef.com

Pellet specific stuff:

TDO is one of those that has a lot of good results backing it (as described above), and, nutritionally, it is one of the best pellet feeds on the market. That said, the pellet feeds available leave a bit to be desired.

With regards to the whole foods vs. meals and starches: whole is generally ideal, but meals may be made using the whole fish/squid/etc., depending on how it's processed. If it is made with the whole item, then the meal could be just as good as the whole (though it's not necessarily, which is why I say whole is generally ideal). The real issue with meals is that you don't know what all goes into them - it could be the whole fish and a bunch of healthy fish species, it could be basically all the trash parts of nutritionally worthless species, or it could be anything in between.

The flours and starches basically provide calories that the nutrient dense meals, oils, etc. in the feed may lack while helping the pellets stay together in the water (so it's meant to provide the energy while the rest of the food provides nutrition), but you're right that these are not healthy in excess. The excess carbs from too much starch have been shown to cause a variety of different health issues and weakened immune systems (dependent on fish species, natural diet, etc.).* So, starches in moderation are fine, but when overdone, they definitely can cause issues. Whether or not TDO and similar pellets have enough starch to cause these issues is a fair question that would require some pretty intensive research to figure out. Based on the results TDO gives, I would assume that, if it has too much starch, it only has slightly too much (meaning that real issues likely wouldn't be seen for years).

My understanding is that newer (superior) pelleting methods don't require as much starch to keep them together as older methods do, but I've heard that older methods are still largely the norm for the fish keeping industry.

For the other aspects of good nutrition in feeds, look at dry matter basis protein and fat contents; the kinds of fats in the feed; and other nutrients, micronutrients, vitamins, minerals, etc. in the feed, such as thiaminase and vitamin B1 (these two examples are particularly important to be aware of when dealing with predatory fish).

With regards to TDO vs NLS pellets: TDO has a better protein and fat content, but NLS - having so many types of algae in it - is likely somewhat superior with regards to micronutrients and such. Personally, I've taken to recommending both, with the TDO (or Otohime pellets) being the main feed to get the big picture nutritional profile from the protein and fat, but supplemented with the NLS pellets to cover the minute details (micronutrients and such) side of things.

Coloration specific stuff:

Helping Fish Coloration

Hey All, Was curious what people supplement on the fish food to help with their coloration. I have a small yellow tang, hes a little on the opaque side, very healthy otherwise, but wanted to see if there was anything I can help supplement to help give him that deep yellow pop and help my fish...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[betareef]

You will get a variety of replies but usually here is my brand tier:
Rods
Hikari
Ocean Nutrition
Sallys
there is a brand below this but can’t recall the name
Anyway, I only use these as supplements and chop my own from frozen sea food mix outta Asian Marts, et
I don’t usually buy mixes, but I will get specialty veg based stuff, and then only Formula 2 or Nori sheets

Added: the Mega Marine series seems heartily consumed, so perhaps something to that brand

Spirulna Brine has a decent profile, but the non enhanced stuff is fruit loops… Some of the mysis is kinda just husk, IME I 1st thaw in fridge as opposed to water and I don’t rinse
Frozen calanus might be better, I dunno
when in doubt, chopped raw shrimp and clams never fails

yeah, I was more interested in what makes a good food, than brand recommendations, especially as a lot of brands are country specific.

That said, one can look at what goes into a recommended brand, as an example, so thanks.

 

[Doctorgori]

yeah I did get that, but They all are just chopped up sea food with perhaps some fish roe and seaweed…
none add any vitamins or whatever that I’m aware of (maybe omega in the brine shrimp)
Added: the handling while frozen within the distribution chain is a big factor in quality, Sally’s/sfb has issues here

 

[betareef]

My response is a bit lengthy, but it should answer most of your questions.

The most important stuff:



Pellet specific stuff:

Coloration specific stuff:

Helping Fish Coloration

Hey All, Was curious what people supplement on the fish food to help with their coloration. I have a small yellow tang, hes a little on the opaque side, very healthy otherwise, but wanted to see if there was anything I can help supplement to help give him that deep yellow pop and help my fish...

www.reef2reef.com

Lots of good info, thanks.

The bit about grains and starches is the reason I prefer frozen food to pellets. My fishes needs are mostly for carnivore food, so vegetable matter is also not so important for that reason.

A question I still have is, for the carnivore part of the diet, are mysis better than brine shrimp, and can one just feed, for example, just mysis, or just salmon, or just clam, or is a variety essential. I ask because I see lots of frozen foods that are just mysis, or brine shrimp alone.

 

[betareef]

none add any vitamins or whatever that I’m aware of (maybe omega in the brine shrimp)

That's interesting. I meant to ask about additives. Thanks.

Added: the handling while frozen within the distribution chain is a big factor in quality

For sure. Maybe I will end up making my own using top quality seafoods.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Lots of good info, thanks.

The bit about grains and starches is the reason I prefer frozen food to pellets. My fishes needs are mostly for carnivore food, so vegetable matter is also not so important for that reason.

A question I still have is, for the carnivore part of the diet, are mysis better than brine shrimp, and can one just feed, for example, just mysis, or just salmon, or just clam, or is a variety essential. I ask because I see lots of frozen foods that are just mysis, or brine shrimp alone.

With regards to the vegetable matter, keep in mind that predators in nature end up consuming some vegetable matter when they eat the organs of their prey - it's not a whole lot of vegetable matter, but it provides a substantial benefit for the predators by giving them the nutrition (such as certain vitamins and minerals) that the meat of their prey doesn't. So, while it's not a huge part of their diet, it's still important to include.

Mysis are high in protein but low in fat; brine shrimp are a bit low in protein and high in fat - because they both have serious flaws when used alone, I wouldn't call one better than the other.

To address your main question though: yes, you can feed just mysis or just brine shrimp. It's not recommended, as - in addition to the imbalance of protein and fat mentioned above - it would likely leave the fish with some elevated nutrient levels as well as some nutrient deficiencies.

For best health, at least some variety is needed (the variety of ingredients vs. variety of feeds discussed above); the fish will survive without it, but they likely won't thrive (i.e. probably won't live as long, be as healthy/colorful, spawn, etc.).